Fairytale?

[Inan3]

[bible]Matthew 10:34[/bible]

In that particular context He was talking about making a stand for your faith whether it divides you from friends family or foes. Losing your life for His sake. Giving up all if need be to follow Him, even if others come against you for it.


In another place when His disciples got a little over zealous he corrected them.

Luk 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
Luk 9:52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Luk 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw [this], they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them]. And they went to another village.


And again,


Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out [his] hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

 

[thaumaturgy]

That's like saying "IF you are going to cheat on your wife make sure she doesn't find out."

In a very real sense I think that is what Inan was saying. I actually do see her point. I just didn't expect her to feel more strongly about slavery than God appears to feel.

But indeed, she's right. If you insist on owning a slave then what is God gonna do? He'll likely suggest you at least treat them well. He's nice like that.

(And to be fair to Inan, it's more like "If you're going to cheat on your wife, at least buy her flowers so she doesn't think you're totally mean!")

 

[FishFace]

If I remember correctly, this was considered strong evidence, if not proof, of evo... er... abiogenesis.

Er. No.

It shows that one step of abiogenesis is obviously possible, making abiogenesis a more likely possibility. Nothing to do with proof, nothing to do with evolution.

Until it was pointed out that he had to use a trap in the loop.

Nature has no trap though, and the very processes that supposedly create the amino acids --- destroy it.

I assume by "trap" you mean something which removes chemicals from the environment in which they were formed.
Something like clay, perhaps.

That's the explanation as I remember it.

Unfortunately there is a natural substance - clay - which solves the problem.

 

[FishFace]

There may be a reason for that....

What, 53 give or take 40?

 

[Baggins]

If I remember correctly, this was considered strong evidence, if not proof, of evo... er... abiogenesis.

It is obviously not proof of abiogenesis or there would have been self replicating chemicals produced. But it is strong evidence in support of abiogenesis.

Until it was pointed out that he had to use a trap in the loop.

See if you can think of something natural that could do the same.

Nature has no trap though,

Yes it does AV, back to your books,

and the very processes that supposedly create the amino acids --- destroy it.

Not if they are trapped elsewhere such as in sheets of clay minerals.

So he had to immediately isolate the amino acid as soon as it formed --- otherwise, his experiment would be a failure.

Much as could easily happen in nature

That's the explanation as I remember it

Either yor memory is as bad as mine seems to be getting, or you didn't read it in a proper source to begin with.

 

[AV1611VET]

One human being owning another. So would you sell your daughter to a really really nice man?

Excuse me, Thaumaturgy, but don't try and convince us "slavery is slavery" until you know what you're talking about.

In Israel, when A owed B money, and A couldn't pay B the money he owed him, he did one of three things:

1. Request a near-kinsman redeem him --- meaning simply a request for a relative to pay his debt for him - (see the book of Ruth).
2. Become a "bond servant" to the debtor.
3. Have a substitute become a "bond servant" to take his place.

And only for a period of six years or less.

After six years, all debts were released, and the bond servant could return home, if he or she should choose to do so.

The conditions of the bond servant would be drawn up on a scroll and sealed with seven seals.

At the start of the Sabbath Year, the scroll would be retrieved, and the terms of his release would be read, as the reader broke open each seal.

This is exactly what we see in the book of Revelation. The earth being returned to its rightful Owner, with the breaking open of the seven-seals, and the terms of the contract being fulfilled.

So put the smut-filled Roots episodes away and get some real theology --- from the Bible.

 

[AV1611VET]

.
​

Calmet enumerates six different ways in which a Hebrew might lose his liberty: 1. In extreme poverty they might sell their liberty. Le 25:39: If thy brother be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee, &c. 2. A father might sell his children. If a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant; see Ex 21:7. 3. Insolvent debtors became the slaves of their creditors. My husband is dead-and the creditor is come to take unto him my two sons to be bondmen, 2Ki 4:1. 4. A thief, if he had not money to pay the fine laid on him by the law, was to be sold for his profit whom he had robbed. If he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft; Ex 22:3,4. 5. A Hebrew was liable to be taken prisoner in war, and so sold for a slave. 6. A Hebrew slave who had been ransomed from a Gentile by a Hebrew might be sold by him who ransomed him, to one of his own nation.

Six years he shall serve] It was an excellent provision in these laws, that no man could finally injure himself by any rash, foolish, or precipitate act. No man could make himself a servant or slave for more than seven years; and if he mortgaged the family inheritance, it must return to the family at the jubilee, which returned every fiftieth year.

It is supposed that the term six years is to be understood as referring to the sabbatical years; for let a man come into servitude at whatever part of the interim between two sabbatical years, he could not be detained in bondage beyond a sabbatical year; so that if he fell into bondage the third year after a sabbatical year, he had but three years to serve; if the fifth, but one. Others suppose that this privilege belonged only to the year of jubilee, beyond which no man could be detained in bondage, though he had been sold only one year before.

 

[Inan3]

That's like saying "IF you are going to cheat on your wife make sure she doesn't find out."



So it wasn't wise to tell them not to have slaves?



Is it a sin?

I looked into it a little more and it seems that it was more as a judgement for those who had debts or committed crimes.

Exo 21:2 -
If thou buy a Hebrew servant - Calmet enumerates six different ways in which a Hebrew might lose his liberty:
1. In extreme poverty they might sell their liberty. Lev_25:39 : If thy brother be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee, etc.
2. A father might sell his children. If a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant; see Exo_21:7.
3. Insolvent debtors became the slaves of their creditors. My husband is dead - and the creditor is come to take unto him my two sons to be bondmen, 2Ki_4:1.
4. A thief, if he had not money to pay the fine laid on him by the law, was to be sold for his profit whom he had robbed. If he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft; Exo_22:3, Exo_22:4.
5. A Hebrew was liable to be taken prisoner in war, and so sold for a slave.
6. A Hebrew slave who had been ransomed from a Gentile by a Hebrew might be sold by him who ransomed him, to one of his own nation.
Six years he shall serve - It was an excellent provision in these laws, that no man could finally injure himself by any rash, foolish, or precipitate act. No man could make himself a servant or slave for more than seven years; and if he mortgaged the family inheritance, it must return to the family at the jubilee, which returned every fiftieth year.
It is supposed that the term six years is to be understood as referring to the sabbatical years; for let a man come into servitude at whatever part of the interim between two sabbatical years, he could not be detained in bondage beyond a sabbatical year; so that if he fell into bondage the third year after a sabbatical year, he had but three years to serve; if the fifth, but one. See Clarke’s note on Exo_23:11, etc. Others suppose that this privilege belonged only to the year of jubilee, beyond which no man could be detained in bondage, though he had been sold only one year before.

 

[RichardT]

Wow. This thread has so many posts. Can someone tell me what has been going on in this thread because I haven't been following.

 

[Inan3]

Wow. This thread has so many posts. Can someone tell me what has been going on in this thread because I haven't been following.

NO

 

[DrkSdBls]

Wow. This thread has so many posts. Can someone tell me what has been going on in this thread because I haven't been following.

Beats me. I've only been loosely following and even I'm lost.

The Thread has kind of drifted off topic slightly.

 

[Inan3]

.​

Hey Did you see that I put up the same info as you and we didn't even know the other was doing that. It's a God thing.

 

[Inan3]

Beats me. I've only been loosely following and even I'm lost.

The Thread has kind of drifted off topic slightly.

It's just one big Fairytale!

 

[Inan3]

So how do you tell whether someone's speaking for Christ?

Ah, right - if they agree with you then the are. Otherwise, they're not. Gottit.

No, get to know Him. Read about Him. Talk to Him. Spend time with Him. This is how you get to know someone.

 

[Inan3]

Jesus wouldn't have signed up for "embedded age" or tarring and feathering evolutionists either, so I'm not sure if you want to continue with this argument.

I wouldn't either. So what's your point.

 

[Nathan Poe]

No, get to know Him. Read about Him. Talk to Him. Spend time with Him. This is how you get to know someone.

Hey, I know Christ pretty well. I'm also pretty well acquainted with Huckleberry Finn, Hamlet, and Sherlock Holmes.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Excuse me, Thaumaturgy, but don't try and convince us "slavery is slavery" until you know what you're talking about.

Oh, do tell!

In Israel, when A owed B money, and A couldn't pay B the money he owed him, he did one of three things:

1. Request a near-kinsman redeem him --- meaning simply a request for a relative to pay his debt for him - (see the book of Ruth).
2. Become a "bond servant" to the debtor.
3. Have a substitute become a "bond servant" to take his place.

And only for a period of six years or less.

That would appear to be IF the slave was a HEBREW. Did this equally apply to ALL SLAVES?

After six years, all debts were released, and the bond servant could return home, if he or she should choose to do so.

[BIBLE]Joshua 9:23[/BIBLE]

Can you point out the part where there's a 6-year time limit? I must not be seeing it with my theologically inept eyes.

So put the smut-filled Roots episodes away and get some real theology --- from the Bible.

Yes Roots. Smut. I can see why you'd say that. Did Roots offend you with its smutty depiction of slavery?

But if you want to think that all slaves mentioned in the bible were simply on 6-year term limits and they all did it because they owed someone money, then please tell me how good indentured servitude is.

I"m still trying to parse the 6-year time limit:

[BIBLE]Joshua 9:27[/BIBLE]

Gosh if only I was as "advanced" in my theology as you are.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Hey Did you see that I put up the same info as you and we didn't even know the other was doing that. It's a God thing.

Yeah, it's a God-Thing.

"...in which a Hebrew might lose his liberty". seems to be key here. Did these same apply to slaves who were prized during war?

What about selling your daughter? How much debt did she have to accrue to be sold into slavery?

Considering most women wouldn't have technically been able to accrue debt, I'd be interested to find out how this works too.

[bible]Exodus 21:7[/bible]

Step, two, and one and two and turn two and one and two and...

 

[Inan3]

Yeah, it's a God-Thing.

"...in which a Hebrew might lose his liberty". seems to be key here. Did these same apply to slaves who were prized during war?

What about selling your daughter? How much debt did she have to accrue to be sold into slavery?

Considering most women wouldn't have technically been able to accrue debt, I'd be interested to find out how this works too.

Yeah what's up with that???

Step, two, and one and two and turn two and one and two and...

Are you dancing with me? I'm not dressed for this. Besides I'm too tired. I'm taking off the boxing gloves for the night. Going to watch CSI. Miles of smiles.

 

[Blayz]

I personally believe that to enslave people against their will is BAD. BUT there are cultures that permit even today. Due to their poverty there are those who become slaves and think it is a good thing for them. It helps their families and as long as they are treated well it is not a problem for them. They accept it. Without looking it up there was also a time limit placed by the Lord on their term of slavery. Sometimes after their term was up they opted to stay on for life, because for them it was a much better life. I believe this eventually "evolved" into, as I said before, a job for them.

Relativistic morals. I like it.

However, there are so many things God tells the Israelites not to do, up to and including what kind of cloths go together. I don't buy the "God let it happen because of the times" thing, because he did not do that for anything else (apart from genocide, infanticide etc etc).

If it's bad, God should say, unequivocally as he does with all other bad things, that it is bad.

I don't care what "kind" of slavery it is, it is still slavery, and it is still condoned in the bible, down to how you should beat them.