Fahrenheit 9/11

[ps139]

It really bothers me that some can vote that is so lacking in critical thinking or rational judgement as youself.

Thanks for the compliment Jeremy, I feel the exact same way towards you.

 

[sad astronaut]

Name one politician or president who doesn't do the same thing.

Good point (where you respond to the statement that Moore stretches the truth). However, the really bad thing is, Moore won an Oscar for his past "documentary" Bowling for Columbine, and he may be nominated for another one with this effort. It is wrong for anyone to lie, but at least with politicians you know what's coming, with a documentary you expect a higher standard of truth.

Anybody who goes to a movie theatre expecting balanced political comment needs their head read as far as I'm concerned. Moore is a polemist who wants people to react. You have to know where he's going overboard and overstating his argument.

Granted, but there are still several lines that have been crossed. Again, the key word is "documentary."

 

[FlyersKJM]

there are parts in this movie that they edited or used in the wrong context to make Bush seem like an idiot.

For instance, the part where he is talking about terror and then suddenly he starts golfing, you know, when he says "Now watch this drive".

He is actually talking about suicide bombers in the Mideast during that whole Isreal crisis, not about whatever they have you think he is talking about.

 

[StainedClassKing]

Thanks for the compliment Jeremy, I feel the exact same way towards you.

I don't 'feel' this, I think it. And I backed up why I thought it. Would you care to elaborate on how my assessment is lacking in critical thinking?

 

[sad astronaut]

found another link disputing the claims of fahrenheit 911. the site is run by three progressive democrats. www.spinsanity.org. As of today, its the top article on the home page.

 

[theFijian]

Good point (where you respond to the statement that Moore stretches the truth). However, the really bad thing is, Moore won an Oscar for his past "documentary" Bowling for Columbine, and he may be nominated for another one with this effort. It is wrong for anyone to lie, but at least with politicians you know what's coming, with a documentary you expect a higher standard of truth.

You think we should expect a higher standard of truth from film-makers than from politicians???!?!?!?! Pardon my incredulity!!! It is a sad sad day when we just accept that politicians lie and stretch the truth and expect no more from them than that. I think Daniel is a good example of how one can avoid compromise yet serve in a corrupt ungodly administration.

peace
Andy

 

[sad astronaut]

You think we should expect a higher standard of truth from film-makers than from politicians???!?!?!?! Pardon my incredulity!!! It is a sad sad day when we just accept that politicians lie and stretch the truth and expect no more from them than that. I think Daniel is a good example of how one can avoid compromise yet serve in a corrupt ungodly administration.

peace
Andy

haha, a sad day indeed! Sorry if my previous post seemed to be defending politicians for lying. I am not talking about the extent of wrongness of different groups lying, rather their effects. Filmmakers should not be looked upon as a beacon of truth, but I am afraid they sometimes are. I guarantee you that there are people who will see Fahrenheit 911, not questioning for a second whether or not everything they've seen is true. When you have a movie awarded an Oscar for the documenatary category, like "Bowling for Columbine", you expect it to represent the facts. It is one thing to have a bias, as I don't believe documentary's must be totally objective. It is another to intentionally distort facts (splicing footage of two different speeches of Charlton Heston made a year apart to make it look like the same speech, editing a campain ad from Bush/Quayle, etc...)

On the other hand, I've posted links to sites disputing the claims of Fahrenheit 911, but I've got to realize that some of these sites will have their own biases, and they are not the gospel truth. spinsanity.org and Newsweek, however, I trust for the most part.

Edit to Add: I am not justifying the deceit of politicians, and their lies can have disastrous consequences. My whole point is that political filmmakers, like politicians, should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[InfoMinister]

hmmmm...didn't work, well here's the verse...

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Since we are the people, we vote them in, and the government supposedly works for us since our tax dollars pay their salaries who are the powers that be in our government? Is it us or the people we vote for? If the people are the ones that have been appointed to by God then I feel that anyone who tries to circumvent or manipulate that power away from The People are the true enemies of God. The state of our government and who is supposedly in control is a lot different from the days of Christ.

 

[nadroj1985]

Name one politician or president who doesn't do the same thing.

It is a sad sad day when we just accept that politicians lie and stretch the truth and expect no more from them than that.

 

[LadyBird]

Wow another comment from probably the most cowardly nation, next to france.

That was SO totally uncalled for and RUDE! Do you know that most countries in the world love us "Cowardly Canadians?" So if I were you...I would just keep the rude comments to myself. And I like what Zaradurden said...

I should probaby also add that Canada was there with us on D-Day during WWII and France once ruled most of the Western World. What you call cowardly I call intelligent.

Enough said...

 

[Patdoggydogg]

well...supposed to be true anyway.


so...those who believe everything in a movie without questioning it are the smart ones? that sounds a bit silly. you are saying the ones who actually question what they read and watch are the stupid ones?

i thought liberals were all about tolerance, yet you claim everyone who dislikes michael moore is stupid. does anyone else see the irony?

No, im claiming that people should not say something without any knowlage about it.

 

[theFijian]

And you're scratching your head because.....?

 

[nadroj1985]

And you're scratching your head because.....?

Well, you talked about how sad it was that we think of our politicians as liars. I think it's sad as well, but it's a fairly well-founded assumption. Your statement:

Name one politician or president who doesn't do the same thing.

...seems to indicate that you feel the same. If so, what basis are you providing for thinking that we should hold politicians to a higher standard for truth than anyone else, filmmakers or otherwise?

 

[theFijian]

Well, you talked about how sad it was that we think of our politicians as liars. I think it's sad as well, but it's a fairly well-founded assumption. Your statement:



...seems to indicate that you feel the same. If so, what basis are you providing for thinking that we should hold politicians to a higher standard for truth than anyone else, filmmakers or otherwise?

I would quote Romans 13, I believe that the authority wielded by earthly rulers has been given them by God, and as such are his servants (even though the majority of them would not recognise this).

Secondly there is also plain common sense, wouldn't you expect the people in charge of your country to up honest and truthful?

I'm getting a strange feeling here, have I just come out with a really bizzare concept or something?

 

[theFijian]

haha, a sad day indeed! Sorry if my previous post seemed to be defending politicians for lying. I am not talking about the extent of wrongness of different groups lying, rather their effects. Filmmakers should not be looked upon as a beacon of truth, but I am afraid they sometimes are. I guarantee you that there are people who will see Fahrenheit 911, not questioning for a second whether or not everything they've seen is true. When you have a movie awarded an Oscar for the documenatary category, like "Bowling for Columbine", you expect it to represent the facts. It is one thing to have a bias, as I don't believe documentary's must be totally objective. It is another to intentionally distort facts (splicing footage of two different speeches of Charlton Heston made a year apart to make it look like the same speech, editing a campain ad from Bush/Quayle, etc...)

On the other hand, I've posted links to sites disputing the claims of Fahrenheit 911, but I've got to realize that some of these sites will have their own biases, and they are not the gospel truth. spinsanity.org and Newsweek, however, I trust for the most part.

Edit to Add: I am not justifying the deceit of politicians, and their lies can have disastrous consequences. My whole point is that political filmmakers, like politicians, should be taken with a grain of salt.

I think we took the long way round in agreeing with each other I just amn't as anti-Moore as you are I think though I know fine well to take him with a pinch of salt.

 

[nadroj1985]

I would quote Romans 13, I believe that the authority wielded by earthly rulers has been given them by God, and as such are his servants (even though the majority of them would not recognise this).

Secondly there is also plain common sense, wouldn't you expect the people in charge of your country to up honest and truthful?

I'm getting a strange feeling here, have I just come out with a really bizzare concept or something?

Of course, those that are in charge should be honest with us; I don't think anyone would argue with you on that. But the space between whether they should and whether they do is a rather large one. Perhaps I am missing your point?

 

[IamPJladd]

disney not wanting to distribute mooore's movie = censorship and oppression

Looks like someone didn't pass Algebra...

disney not wanting to distribute mooore's movie = due to possible political flaming = disney also owns radio stations playing republican blowhards sean hannity and rush limbaugh = hypocritical move = censorship and oppression

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!

 

[The_Governator_2004]

So was the movie balanced? Did they show images of dead Americans after the 911 attacks? Did they show Saddam's torture and rape rooms? Did they show the CNN footage of Kurd villages decimated by Saddam's chemical weapons? Was it fair and balanced, or was it a dog and pony show?

You know, not to argue with you but in an interview with Michael Moore he was asked the same type of question. The question was, "Is this movie fair to the Bush Administration?" He clearly answered no. He said that the movie was totally unfair to President Bush (actually he called him Governor Bush which is a totaly sign of disrespect regardless). He stated that the movie presented facts about what has happened since Bush was elected, but he never said it presented ALL THE FACTS. Meaning there is still more out there. Whether it be a good thing or a bad thing for the Bush Administration. He also said the movie was his opinion on how things are being run by Bush leaning towards the fact that this movie is unfair. Now does that mean that when you say you don't agree with Bush you don't agree with your country no. This is a free country. You have the right to not be pleased with a president if you want. I'm not and I strongly support that opinion. Now am I right? No. But if you strongly support every decision Bush has made does that make you right? No. Nobody in this forum expressing their opinion is right, unless of course you are saying something about the word of God or you know things in that sort. Anything dealing with the war, this movie, the presidency, anything is just an opinion and it's neither right or wrong. That's what makes this country so great. I got two cousin's in Iraq RIGHT NOW. One is coming home from being illl soon so my prayers have been answered. I support my troops 100% I just don't support my president. HANDS DOWN. Sorry if I made anyone mad or whatever, I really am.

 

[sad astronaut]

You know, not to argue with you but in an interview with Michael Moore he was asked the same type of question. The question was, "Is this movie fair to the Bush Administration?" He clearly answered no. He said that the movie was totally unfair to President Bush (actually he called him Governor Bush which is a totaly sign of disrespect regardless). He stated that the movie presented facts about what has happened since Bush was elected, but he never said it presented ALL THE FACTS. Meaning there is still more out there. Whether it be a good thing or a bad thing for the Bush Administration. He also said the movie was his opinion on how things are being run by Bush leaning towards the fact that this movie is unfair. Now does that mean that when you say you don't agree with Bush you don't agree with your country no. This is a free country. You have the right to not be pleased with a president if you want. I'm not and I strongly support that opinion. Now am I right? No. But if you strongly support every decision Bush has made does that make you right? No. Nobody in this forum expressing their opinion is right, unless of course you are saying something about the word of God or you know things in that sort. Anything dealing with the war, this movie, the presidency, anything is just an opinion and it's neither right or wrong. That's what makes this country so great. I got two cousin's in Iraq RIGHT NOW. One is coming home from being illl soon so my prayers have been answered. I support my troops 100% I just don't support my president. HANDS DOWN. Sorry if I made anyone mad or whatever, I really am.

Good post. Moore has the right to express his own opinions, and he shouldn't have to produce an objective movie. It is up to the people who watch the movie to educate themselves on a variety of opinions, it is not Moore's obligation to present a variety of questions.

However, what brings ethical questions to the forefront is whether or not he stated "facts" that simply were not true. There are many reputable sources out there, links I've posted previously, that said he did. Even in cases he did not outright lie based on the words of his mouth, he did many things with the intent to deceive.

 

[TriptychR]

I respected Michael Moore a lot, uh... more in Roger and Me, before he saw he could create such a stir through sensationalism.