Extreme gun control positions

[Sparagmos]

The Constitution can be changed. But if it is going to be changed, there is a Constitutional process for doing it. Until that happens, the right to keep and bear arms may not be legally infringed upon. Second Amendment defenders are aware of this, it is the basis for our position. Gun control people however, try to implement infringement without an Amendment, and that is illegal.

I’ll give you that point, up to the illegal part. I personally find arguing over what the framers intended absurd. They are dead, the country is ours and it’s values are ours to shape collectively. Issues should be debated on the merits.

 

[jgarden]

Extreme gun control positions

Detroit averages 1 homicide daily while Windsor, its Canadian counterpart on the other side of the Ambassador Bridge, recently went 27 months without a murder!

Americans could do worse than to examine as to what Windsor is doing right and then attempt to adopt some of their findings in an American setting!

 

[Sketcher]

I’ll give you that point, up to the illegal part. I personally find arguing over what the framers intended absurd. They are dead, the country is ours and it’s values are ours to shape collectively. Issues should be debated on the merits.

What they intended when they wrote the Constitution is relevant until future amendments make it irrelevant. If you don't like what's in the Constitution, amend it, don't reinterpret it.

 

[Radagast]

The Most Dangerous Cities in the World

Exactly. Now if you can identify what the real problems are in St. Louis, Baltimore, New Orleans, Detroit, and Chicago, then you're getting somewhere.

 

[Radagast]

Why are you ignoring so much data? The scholars who have studied this issue

I understand the data, and I am a scholar.

You cannot dispute the wealth of data showing first world countries with stricter gun control have drastically lower homicide and gun deaths.

US state-by-state data shows pretty much conclusively that gun laws are not the issue when it comes to homicide rates in the US.

 

[disciple Clint]

Violent gang culture. No Trump style border wall at the city limits.

Seriously why do people keep bringing this up? Its the USA.... cant get a gun in your city, go to the next state over.

anyone who thinks that those gang members are going out of the city to get guns does not understand anything about what goes on inside the city. They just don't have to do that and they don't do anything they don't have to do and that's the facts.

 

[Radagast]

anyone who thinks that those gang members are going out of the city to get guns does not understand anything about what goes on inside the city.

And the pathway that puts guns in the hands of gang members is not quite the same as the one putting legal guns in the hands of ordinary citizens.

 

[USincognito]

anyone who thinks that those gang members are going out of the city to get guns does not understand anything about what goes on inside the city. They just don't have to do that and they don't do anything they don't have to do and that's the facts.

Actually the facts say differently. A large number of the guns used in crimes in Chicago come from just two suburban gun stores right outside Chicago city limits.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...go-actually-came-from/?utm_term=.dc346574b18e
Now perhaps the gang members aren't buying the guns themselves, but however they're getting into the city, the guns are coming primarily from external sources.

 

[Gigimo]

anyone who thinks that those gang members are going out of the city to get guns does not understand anything about what goes on inside the city. They just don't have to do that and they don't do anything they don't have to do and that's the facts.

It's not just the city that happens in expand that mentality to the whole country and then see where all the guns would come from. They would be smuggled in from other countries, which would be fine and dandy for the crooks. But not so fine for the law abiding person who now cannot legally have a gun around as a deterrent or be able to defend him/herself from those bad elements of society.

Morale of the story fix the people don't ban the gun it won't work...

 

[disciple Clint]

Actually the facts say differently. A large number of the guns used in crimes in Chicago come from just two suburban gun stores right outside Chicago city limits.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...go-actually-came-from/?utm_term=.dc346574b18e
Now perhaps the gang members aren't buying the guns themselves, but however they're getting into the city, the guns are coming primarily from external sources.

Would that be because there are almost no gun stores inside the city and the stores that you mention are the closest, so the public buys guns outside the city legally and take them home inside the city, the guns get stolen and ultimately end up in the hands of gang members. Chicago Council Passes Ordinance Banning Gun Stores From Most Of City - Grand View Outdoors

 

[USincognito]

It’s not mentioned directly. And is certainly not a guaranteed right.

Actually...

Art. IV, Sec. 2, Clause 3 - "No person held to service or labour in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labour may be due."

To put it in modern language, if your slave runs away, you have a right to demand it back. That your slave is your property is enshrined as law within this clause. That's why it took an amendment to get rid of it.

 

[expos4ever]

I'd consider myself to be pro-gun... I own 17 of them

If I may ask, why do you have ARs? What real need does it meet?

 

[OK Jeff]

If I may ask, why do you have ARs? What real need does it meet?

What is the specific issue with AR?

 

[durangodawood]

SCOTUS has held that handguns "in common use" are protected. That would rule out any bans on handguns with a merely average capacity.

Well I'd be curious to find out what that specifically means. Regardless, I did note that my proposals may require a constitutional amendment.

 

[durangodawood]

Would that be because there are almost no gun stores inside the city and the stores that you mention are the closest, so the public buys guns outside the city legally and take them home inside the city, the guns get stolen and ultimately end up in the hands of gang members. Chicago Council Passes Ordinance Banning Gun Stores From Most Of City - Grand View Outdoors

Takeaway: patchwork gun availability laws are useless in a country with freedom of movement.

 

[dgiharris]

I can put up a quote, but revised history claims it’s false. You have google? Check for yourself.

So ... no evidence then. Disappointing.

Oh not this dance again! YOU made a claim, YOU are obliged to defend it.

Why is it ALWAYS those on the right that refuse to fulfill their obligation to defend their claims? C’mon now, surely you can find something from Breitbart or InfoWars.

You may wish to ruminate on the matter if you insist, as is your right, that I defend my claim that it is invariably those on the right who try this stunt of evading responsibility for their claims.

Go ahead, make my day.

It's so weird how this dance works...

Other day I made a post claiming XYZ about how the Right Treated Obama. I was immediately hit with "that never happened..."

I then went to youtube, typed in Right bashes Obama for XYZ and boom several videos of Fox News etc pop up, I watch a video for 1 minute to make sure, then I quote the poster and provide the video... entire thing took 3 minutes to respond to and prove him wrong...

It must be strange living in a world where you just spout whatever nonsense claim pops into your head and then when someone asks you to prove it you flip it back on them and say, "I don't have to prove it, you have to disprove it!!!"

 

[OK Jeff]

Would that be because there are almost no gun stores inside the city and the stores that you mention are the closest, so the public buys guns outside the city legally and take them home inside the city, the guns get stolen and ultimately end up in the hands of gang members. Chicago Council Passes Ordinance Banning Gun Stores From Most Of City - Grand View Outdoors[/QUOTE

It's so weird how this dance works...

Other day I made a post claiming XYZ about how the Right Treated Obama. I was immediately hit with "that never happened..."

I then went to youtube, typed in Right bashes Obama for XYZ and boom several videos of Fox News etc pop up, I watch a video for 1 minute to make sure, then I quote the poster and provide the video... entire thing took 3 minutes to respond to and prove him wrong...

It must be strange living in a world where you just spout whatever nonsense claim pops into your head and then when someone asks you to prove it you flip it back on them and say, "I don't have to prove it, you have to disprove it!!!"

As I later said, I tried to post a screenshot, but it never appeared. I discussed it afterward. You’re doing the very thing you’re accusing me of.

 

[Sparagmos]

What they intended when they wrote the Constitution is relevant until future amendments make it irrelevant. If you don't like what's in the Constitution, amend it, don't reinterpret it.

As with scripture, people will always interpret the constitution to mean what they want. Even constitutional scholars can’t agree on one interpretation. And fetishizing the intention of the founders is silly. They weren’t gods and they lived in another time. They were ignorant compared to modern scholars. Their judgement was wrong on race and women’s rights (in keeping with the time,) so I see no reason to assume all of their other judgements were correct.,Wisdom evolves with science, travel, and exposure to other cultures and ideas.

 

[OK Jeff]

Their intention is clear as day and it’s just as relevant today as ever.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

And who determines “common sense”?

The data should be the determining factor.

For instance, the data shows that assault weapons bans don't really accomplish anything in terms of reduction in loss of life...neither do mag-cap restrictions, prohibiting certain attachments, or things of that nature.

Things that do work? Universal background checks, licensing procedures, and training mandates.

Like I noted in my previous reply to another user. The US needs to take a long hard look at how the Czech Republic is doing things. You can own AR's, concealed carry, permits are "shall issue", and gun rights are expansive. They do have mandatory licensing, training, testing, and mental health evaluations. End result...a nation where you can own the types of weapons you'd like & carry for defense...but still boast a 0.7 homicide rate.