Exposure to conspiracy theories correlates with unethical behavior

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Says you Perhaps music is from God. He created Satan with musical abilities and instruments. The bible talks about angels singing before creation. People were advanced in music right out of the garden of Eden. There is no evidence music is invented by man.

Says you. People conceive, create, and play music; people learn how to create, play, and appreciate music; people teach how to conceive, create, and play music. No evidence of supernatural entities involved.

 

[dad]

Says you. People conceive, create, and play music; people learn how to create, play, and appreciate music; people teach how to conceive, create, and play music. No evidence of supernatural entities involved.

People learn a lot of things, that doesn't mean they invented it all. People learn to tell time by the sun, that does not mean they created the sun. People learn to speak. That doesn't mean that Adam did not speak to God the day he was created. Don't impose your fantasies and hunches and beliefs onto creation.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Atheists are just people who don't believe in a god or gods - they're as varied as people who don't play basketball or don't collect stamps. Some seek wisdom and some don't, much like believers.

I'm inclined to think that knowledge is the understanding of information and wisdom is the ability (or knowledge) to use knowledge effectively for good (in a sense it's knowledge about the application of knowledge).


Having grown up in a Christian environment and gone to Christian schools, I have heard plenty of proverbs and read a fair bit of the Bible. I can't say I got on particularly well with the Bible - very much a curate's egg.


I'm more at home with the philosophers and scientists.

I'm inclined to think that knowledge is the understanding of information and wisdom is the ability (or knowledge) to use knowledge effectively for good (in a sense it's knowledge about the application of knowledge).

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

People learn a lot of things, that doesn't mean they invented it all. People learn to tell time by the sun, that does not mean they created the sun. People learn to speak. That doesn't mean that Adam did not speak to God the day he was created. Don't impose your fantasies and hunches and beliefs onto creation.

It's not me who's dealing in fantasies, hunches, & beliefs. There's no evidence for anything other than people being involved in 'inventing' and creating music.

If you want to claim that an invisible God with superpowers invented music, I could, with equal justification and evidence, claim that music was invented by my invisible goldfish Terry, who doesn't like to talk about it.

 

[dad]

It's not me who's dealing in fantasies, hunches, & beliefs. There's no evidence for anything other than people being involved in 'inventing' and creating music.

You were not there at the beginning, so you have no evidence of anything at all. Your opinion that music is restricted to earth and man made is ridiculous and totally unsupportable.

If you want to claim that an invisible God with superpowers invented music, I could, with equal justification and evidence, claim that music was invented by my invisible goldfish Terry, who doesn't like to talk about it.

No. You couldn't. Don't insult Scripture by your fishbowl comparisons.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Yes ...they are safer in some ways as is "orthodox" and ritual Christianity ... but love demands more as of course it must when others are involved . Not caring was much easier for me but I have children .

Look, you've posted a whole bunch of your own words into the quote supposedly from me. Please edit your post to remove the parts I didn't say.

I don't think you're doing this deliberately, but it's annoying. The quote facility is quite easy to use, you just put start-quote [quote] in front of the text you're quoting, and end-quote [/quote] at the end. You can nest pairs of quote tags if you want to put a quote inside a quote.

You can check that your post will look right before posting it by selecting the [More options...] button and then the [Preview...] button. You can check your post looks right after posting it and click the

button to change it if necessary.

 

[Strathos]

It's not me who's dealing in fantasies, hunches, & beliefs. There's no evidence for anything other than people being involved in 'inventing' and creating music.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You were not there at the beginning, so you have no evidence of anything at all.

Ditto. You were not there at the beginning, so you have no evidence of anything at all. I can see plenty of evidence of man creating music - I've even done it myself.

Your opinion that music is restricted to earth and man made is ridiculous and totally unsupportable.

I know music isn't restricted to Earth, and I know that music made by man is man-made. We often call natural sounds music, e.g. bird song, and those sounds are created by the creatures or natural events that make them; and if there are aliens that make music out there somewhere, the music they make is created by them. It's not difficult to grasp.

No. You couldn't. Don't insult Scripture by your fishbowl comparisons.

I just did. So what justification and evidence do you have to better the claim that my invisible goldfish Terry (I forgot to mention he's magical) invented music?

I have no idea whether scripture claims man didn't invent music, but if it does, it's just another unsubstantiated claim to add to the list.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Sure, you can call any natural sounds 'music', and you can say God invented any or all of it, but in my view, it's a human interpretation of those sounds, according to the human concept of 'music'. Do you have evidence that birds or whales, etc., have a concept of 'music' that corresponds to ours?

 

[dad]

Ditto. You were not there at the beginning, so you have no evidence of anything at all. I can see plenty of evidence of man creating music - I've even done it myself.

I breathed, does that mean I invented breathing? I walk, does this mean I invented walking? You simply try to give man the credit for everything in the process of omitting God.

I know music isn't restricted to Earth, and I know that music made by man is man-made.

The issue is not whether man can exercise gifts given to him from God. The issue is whether music originated from God and man learned about it or whether man invented it all.

We often call natural sounds music, e.g. bird song, and those sounds are created by the creatures or natural events that make them; and if there are aliens that make music out there somewhere, the music they make is created by them. It's not difficult to grasp.

Fallen demons that are not yet cast down to earth may be alien to the world right now, but any musical talents they have are left over gifts from God. (probably grossly misused now)

I just did. So what justification and evidence do you have to better the claim that my invisible goldfish Terry (I forgot to mention he's magical) invented music?

You might as well attribute gifts from God to your fishbowl friends, however imaginary, as to attribute the gift of music to man.

I have no idea whether scripture claims man didn't invent music, but if it does, it's just another unsubstantiated claim to add to the list.

Imaginary lists don't count.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The issue is not whether man can exercise gifts given to him from God. The issue is whether music originated from God and man learned about it or whether man invented it all.

So, what evidence do you have that God invented music (or anything, for that matter)?

 

[timothyu]

 

[NeedyFollower]

Look, you've posted a whole bunch of your own words into the quote supposedly from me. Please edit your post to remove the parts I didn't say.

I don't think you're doing this deliberately, but it's annoying. The quote facility is quite easy to use, you just put start-quote [quote] in front of the text you're quoting, and end-quote [/quote] at the end. You can nest pairs of quote tags if you want to put a quote inside a quote.

You can check that your post will look right before posting it by selecting the [More options...] button and then the [Preview...] button. You can check your post looks right after posting it and click the

button to change it if necessary.

Oh ..I would never deliberately annoy you . It would serve no purpose and it would go against the instructions we have been given to owe no man anything but to love them . I do not think it wise to annoy people and again, to what purpose . Thank you for the instructions on how to utilize the quote feature .

I have seen some of the replies regarding the pet gold fish analogy and of course you are being facetious but I believe you could have done better....For example goldfish have left no written text . One of the values of scripture is their ability to display a thread of relevance throughout and to be able to find some "truths" regarding the make up of the human beings and both past and future events . Recent ( post 1800's ) archaeological discoveries have found numerous extra-biblical evidences which validated names, peoples and places heretofore only mentioned in the bible. That of course does not prove anything other than a record was passed down orally and then at some point written . But I find the description of the state of humankind described in Isaiah chapter 3 pretty significant . ( I will give children to be their princes and babes shall rule over them . ) It speaks of the child acting arrogantly to the ancient and women ruling over God's people . In the book of daniel , chapter 3 ..it gives us a pretty good idea of the various forms of governments post babylon through the use of a statue with a head of gold and ending with feet of clay and the toes of iron and clay which will not stick together . This agrees with extra biblical history of the Medes and Persians replacing Babylon , then followed by Alexander the great , then Rome . Clay and Iron do not stick together which agrees with your statesman , Winston Churchill who apparently said that democracies are the worst forms of all governments but the best we have.
The prophecies in the bible do not entail space ships and big foots . They are for people to ponder . To see history and learn by the mistakes made. Again from Isaiah ....people had made idols of inanimate objects ..they had eyes but could not see . They had ears but could not hear ...and the people became just like them ....basically soulless . This is what happens in a materialistic world ...we become objects . Would you be able to possibly agree with these principals handed down ? Can you see how this could happen ?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Oh ..I would never deliberately annoy you . It would serve no purpose and it would go against the instructions we have been given to owe no man anything but to love them . I do not think it wise to annoy people and again, to what purpose . Thank you for the instructions on how to utilize the quote feature .

You're welcome. Paragraphs would be helpful too...

I have seen some of the replies regarding the pet gold fish analogy and of course you are being facetious but I believe you could have done better....For example goldfish have left no written text .

Oh, but my invisible goldfish Terry did leave written text (he's gone to the great goldfish bowl in the sky). He inspired me to write about his life story and how we should live and treat each other.

One of the values of scripture is their ability to display a thread of relevance throughout and to be able to find some "truths" regarding the make up of the human beings and both past and future events . Recent ( post 1800's ) archaeological discoveries have found numerous extra-biblical evidences which validated names, peoples and places heretofore only mentioned in the bible. That of course does not prove anything other than a record was passed down orally and then at some point written . But I find the description of the state of humankind described in Isaiah chapter 3 pretty significant . ( I will give children to be their princes and babes shall rule over them . ) It speaks of the child acting arrogantly to the ancient and women ruling over God's people . In the book of daniel , chapter 3 ..it gives us a pretty good idea of the various forms of governments post babylon through the use of a statue with a head of gold and ending with feet of clay and the toes of iron and clay which will not stick together . This agrees with extra biblical history of the Medes and Persians replacing Babylon , then followed by Alexander the great , then Rome . Clay and Iron do not stick together which agrees with your statesman , Winston Churchill who apparently said that democracies are the worst forms of all governments but the best we have.
The prophecies in the bible do not entail space ships and big foots . They are for people to ponder . To see history and learn by the mistakes made. Again from Isaiah ....people had made idols of inanimate objects ..they had eyes but could not see . They had ears but could not hear ...and the people became just like them ....basically soulless . This is what happens in a materialistic world ...we become objects . Would you be able to possibly agree with these principals handed down ? Can you see how this could happen ?

One problem with the Bible is that you can find whatever you want to there, from peace and love to hatred and revenge. So people cherry-pick the parts they want and interpret them how they prefer. It has some nice morality tales, but the Book of Terry calls it 'propaganda', and who am I to argue with Terry?

 

[NeedyFollower]

You're welcome. Paragraphs would be helpful too...

Oh, but my invisible goldfish Terry did leave written text (he's gone to the great goldfish bowl in the sky). He inspired me to write about his life story and how we should live and treat each other.

One problem with the Bible is that you can find whatever you want to there, from peace and love to hatred and revenge. So people cherry-pick the parts they want and interpret them how they prefer. It has some nice morality tales, but the Book of Terry calls it 'propaganda', and who am I to argue with Terry?

Oh, but my invisible goldfish Terry did leave written text (he's gone to the great goldfish bowl in the sky). He inspired me to write about his life story and how we should live and treat each other.

I used to be very funny like you . I was quite sarcastic although my humor was normally dry and self-effacing so as not to offend anyone. Of course we have been raised on a diet of Monty Python , David Letterman , Seinfeld , etc. and to be serious is unarguably a lot more taxing and requires a degree of focus, thought and mental sobriety that quite frankly , we just do not have .
I hope you will develop sobriety for we need humble people who care enough to seek understanding and wisdom .

One problem with the Bible is that you can find whatever you want to there, from peace and love to hatred and revenge. So people cherry-pick the parts they want and interpret them how they prefer. It has some nice morality tales, but the Book of Terry calls it 'propaganda', and who am I to argue with Terry?

Yes , i think one can find what one wants and ( self ) justify almost any action ....on the contrary , I found things I did NOT want , were not comfortable but none the less were true regarding the trends of humanity ( evolution or de-evolution as the case currently seems to be . ) Although there is nothing new under the sun . People have walked around dead for a long time and not known it .

Propaganda . Well yes it has been used for propaganda ....many , many times. Cars have driven women to the hospital to have babies delivered and bring a new life into the world and cars have been driven into crowds by terrorist killing many . The Bible has brought life to some ( or some to life ) and has been utilized by others to bring death. For me anyway , it is very hard for me to see justification of causing harm to others in the new covenant .
Interestingly , wars and persecutions done in the name of religion always seemed to reside in a conclusion reached by a using old covenant teachings . For example , the crusades against Islam for the reclaiming of the "Holy Land" . Even today people go to "the holy land " ..There is no such thing as the holy land . You being an atheist and a former christian , may understand that . I do not know . But you see what I mean ?

Propaganda . If you have bought a car that you thought looked cool . If you have clothes that " make the man " ..that define who you are , you have been snookered . You have been propagandized . Are you an environmentalist and "saving the planet " with recycling ? You have been propagandized . Going to see a movie ? Why ? Because someone used words and pictures to entice you to see it .
When the beatles first appeared in the USA , girls would faint and proclaim their love for John , Paul , George and Ringo . They had been propagandized .
Do you like sports and have a "team " ...you have been propagandized . That team probably does not know you exist as an individual and only cares if you root for them because you are part of a crowd which roots for them . They get something from you . ( And they too have been propagandized . )
Any movie stars you like or appreciate ? They are not real ..they are a composite of various writers , directors , producers and acting coaches and most of all , brand mangers ( PR agents ) ..because you know them ..they have a dollar value to someone .

What does this have to do with religion ? Nothing to some. But some may see that we have all been influenced into believing some things and into believing nothing . This agrees with scripture . 1st Romans . Professing themselves to be wise ..etc.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I used to be very funny like you . I was quite sarcastic although my humor was normally dry and self-effacing so as not to offend anyone. Of course we have been raised on a diet of Monty Python , David Letterman , Seinfeld , etc. and to be serious is unarguably a lot more taxing and requires a degree of focus, thought and mental sobriety that quite frankly , we just do not have .
I hope you will develop sobriety for we need humble people who care enough to seek understanding and wisdom .

I hope you get your sense of humour back. It is possible to be serious, sober, and focused yet retain a sense of humour. Humour can also be an effective way to make a serious point.

... Even today people go to "the holy land " ..There is no such thing as the holy land . You being an atheist and a former christian , may understand that . I do not know . But you see what I mean ?

I'm not sure what you mean - there is no country called the holy land, but is it a recognised area (roughly located between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea that also includes the Eastern Bank of the Jordan River).

Propaganda . If you have bought a car that you thought looked cool . If you have clothes that " make the man " ..that define who you are , you have been snookered . You have been propagandized . Are you an environmentalist and "saving the planet " with recycling ? You have been propagandized . Going to see a movie ? Why ? Because someone used words and pictures to entice you to see it .
When the beatles first appeared in the USA , girls would faint and proclaim their love for John , Paul , George and Ringo . They had been propagandized .
Do you like sports and have a "team " ...you have been propagandized . That team probably does not know you exist as an individual and only cares if you root for them because you are part of a crowd which roots for them . They get something from you . ( And they too have been propagandized . )
Any movie stars you like or appreciate ? They are not real ..they are a composite of various writers , directors , producers and acting coaches and most of all , brand mangers ( PR agents ) ..because you know them ..they have a dollar value to someone .

There is a difference between advertising, marketing, propaganda, and indoctrination.

 

[NeedyFollower]

I hope you get your sense of humour back. It is possible to be serious, sober, and focused yet retain a sense of humour. Humour can also be an effective way to make a serious point.

I'm not sure what you mean - there is no country called the holy land, but is it a recognised area (roughly located between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea that also includes the Eastern Bank of the Jordan River).

There is a difference between advertising, marketing, propaganda, and indoctrination.

I hope you get your sense of humour back. It is possible to be serious, sober, and focused yet retain a sense of humour. Humour can also be an effective way to make a serious point.

I was a master ( by nature and not intent ) on using humor to "win friends and influence people " ..I was in sales , marketing and advertising . I hear many "ministers of the gospel " preaching sermons that really gets the audience laughing . But again , you must understand that I actually and sincerely believe what I profess and it is deadly serious because it concerns more than just life and death . Allegorically speaking ...how many men on a battlefield would follow the class clown ? Or do we not choose the very serious brain surgeon verses the happy go lucky guy who perhaps has a better bedside manner ?

I'm not sure what you mean - there is no country called the holy land, but is it a recognised area (roughly located between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea that also includes the Eastern Bank of the Jordan River).

I am familiar with what is called by many the Holy Land ...countless tours are conducted there by religious people with money but as a former christian you are aware that believers should understand that God owns everything . That was an old testament covenant with a specific people and was conditional . ( If-then ) God fulfilled the If part and Israel broke the "then" part . This was replaced by a better covenant which included everyone and everything . I can appreciate that you of course do not believe this but it is a pretty well conceived plan and spoken of in very ancient writings and demonstrated through out secular history . Even the great falling away was predicted but metaphorically speaking trees laying on the ground do not notice that the other trees laying on the ground is abnormal .

There is a difference between advertising, marketing, propaganda, and indoctrination.

Well ..propaganda is used to convince you of something ..to get your buy-in . Whereas marketing is a process designed to identify potential hot buttons and convince you of something ...a solution ..whiter teeth ..reduced cost , etc. ..again ..buy-in . Advertising shows you where or who has the solution for which you are looking and directs you to them ...again ..buy-in ..Indoctrination is basically marketing to the psyche .... Why do you suppose that many sociologist and psychologists are employed by advertisers , marketers and political parties ? "

So ironically this goes back to the original OP regarding conspiracy theories . We have been indoctrinated by many people unless you lived alone on an island . TV shows ..movies ..( Good guy -bad guy ) are particularly deceiving . You ever see the pictures of various princesses from Disney or Barbie dolls ? Oh , these are sold to those over three . Oh, and Barbie used to have a white picket fence but now has a pent house apartment . We are simultaneously giving people what they want while teaching ( indoctrinating ) them into what they should want . ...what is normal to want ..what to look like ..who they should be . How have you remained free from indoctrination or do you realize that you have not ...so indoctrination from society which teaches me I have to be xyz ( or what it means to be British or American ).
I prefer the indoctrination that tells me that I am accepted by God because of who He is , not because of who I am . I am loved because of Him ..not because of me . Is that the gospel you heard growing up when you were a follower of God as a dear child ?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Allegorically speaking ...how many men on a battlefield would follow the class clown ? Or do we not choose the very serious brain surgeon verses the happy go lucky guy who perhaps has a better bedside manner ?

Meh, rhetorical exaggeration doesn't change the fact that it's possible to effectively make a serious point using humour.

But very indirectly, it touches on my point that, when a familiar story is told with a different protagonist, it can be easier to see how absurd the story is.

I am familiar with what is called by many the Holy Land ...countless tours are conducted there by religious people with money ...

So, for practical purposes, there is such thing as the holy land.

How have you remained free from indoctrination or do you realize that you have not ...so indoctrination from society which teaches me I have to be xyz ( or what it means to be British or American ).

Nobody is completely free of the indoctrination of the culture and society they are raised in - but being aware of that joins awareness of cognitive biases as an aid to critical thinking.

I prefer the indoctrination that tells me that I am accepted by God because of who He is , not because of who I am . I am loved because of Him ..not because of me . Is that the gospel you heard growing up when you were a follower of God as a dear child ?

I don't think I was ever a 'follower of God' as a child - I followed the procedures and rituals as I was told. The message I got about God was that God loved me as He loved everyone. I never saw any evidence of this, nor did the procedures and rituals have any noticeable results - although I quite liked the music and pageantry - until I was obliged to attend regularly. The indoctrination didn't 'take'.

 

[timothyu]

Absurdity is mankind. We need to be reminded daily in every form.

 

[timewerx]

I'm not a fan of Conspiracy theory myself. I don't like the general attitude but it's hard to deny the fact when I lived in one of the biggest enemies of Christianity, in Saudi Arabia, the place is filled to the brim of Illuminati symbols, especially in places of power, like government organizations (same symbols found in the American Federal Government). Seen it for myself.

Ironically, the symbols they are using have little or nothing to do with Islam and the Saudi gov't have often desecrated Islamic sites themselves. It raises many questions. Their allegiance is not with Islam and definitely NOT with Chrisitianity. It definitely shows very close ties with USA, UK, and even possibly, Israel. Just my own personal conclusion from things I've seen, I don't read this from conspiracy sites just my observation.

The possible connection with Israel is where it begins to stop making any sense.