Expecting the Unexpected and End Times

[Midst]

There can come times when people have to throw out their investments. If the boat is starting to be really low on the water, and the rain keeps pouring in, it may be necessary to throw out all of that which is not absolutely necessary to life and limb.

This is especially true with the emotional and intellectual investments people may put into their "big life beliefs" about "what will happen in the future". For atheists and agnostics, this often involves much thinking about their career, their family life, and the like. For Christians and the religious, the faithful, it may involve these things, but also their end times viewpoints.

Socrates shared a strong message with Jesus. The "I do not know" message. Now, you see a lot of the messages God has given us through the Jews and his prophets, God has also given to many of the other nations. For instance, the "Golden Rule" is reflected in many belief systems.

Here are some "I do not know's" of my own, I will throw out for practice, for your consideration:

- I do not know if the thousand years in Revelation is literally a thousand years
- I do not know if the thousand years is metaphoric and in some way may have already happened
- I do not know if what is before the thousand years has already happened, or if it will happen in the future -- or some variation thereof
- I do not know if the Gog/MaGog event and Armageddon are not the two same things
- I do not know if the two witnesses have spoke, nor exactly who they are
- I do not know what the Beasts are in Revelation, exactly
- I do not know how many of the plagues, if not all, might be metaphoric or literal


And so on and so on, down the line. So people like me have a very literal view of Revelation in a sense: we do not dare add anything or take anything away until we know for sure.

I would love to know. But, evidence and "conclusive evidence", we all well know are two very different things.

How might one "divine" these matters? By tradition? By what is popularly believed by the group or groups one favors? By bias? Perhaps, for instance, one does not like the Jews secretly even and so they prefer that they have no further place in their interpretations.

By sheer wisdom and cunning?

By divine inspiration?

Today, we do have some verses that are iron clad in understanding.

Some of these prophecies are written by Daniel, and he was given divine inspiration for interpretations. Do note, however, even his interpretations are unclear -- or were, at the time.

Now, we know Daniel, for instance, accurately predicted the major events of Western Civilization for quite some time. Even to the point of such details as how the Alexander Greek empire broke up into four. So clearly, critics date Daniel hundreds of years later during the Maccabean period when these prophecies led to.

Today, we have prophecies that accurately have predicted the modern circumstances of physical Israel. Unlike Daniel, they can not back date these books. So, they are left at calling it "self-fulfilling prophecy".


Now, step back a moment here and consider: look at those prophecies of Daniel regarding Babylon and the world empires to follow. See how the interpretations and initial prophecies were and would be unclear to everyone before and during the fulfillment. These metaphors were written by a truly scary hand.


Revelation, however, and now all Bible prophecy has another major factor: the whole world has access to these things. Some of the prophecies are very blunt. Such as the concept of the world going against Israel.

- God has written these disclosures with understanding of how they may effect future people's behavior. How can we know this? Because He is God.

- There is another critical factor in prophecies. Bad things planned are optional. This is a caveat, for whatever reason, even very many seasoned Christians are unaware of. This is, however, clearly stated several times in Scripture.

So far, no prophecy written down however, has been rescinded.

...

Language problems.

Heaven is drastically different from earth. Human beings, even very seasoned Christians show not much awareness of this. How can they? They have never been there. Not for a visit, not for a very long time.

If Japan and America are alien to each other, or if it is difficult to understand some very distant social circumstances -- such as living as a primitive on an island compared to a "first world" country lifestyle... or between a "first world" country lifestyle and a North Korea -- how much more alien is living in Heaven then on earth.

Further, how different would be living today compared to five hundred, a thousand, five thousand years ago? Or, how might you explain smart phones and computers to primitives?


The depictions of the heavenly in the Bible are actually not as frequent as people often think. Think of some of the strange Ezekiel disclosures. Also consider that many of the vast visions prophets have seen may very well have been filtered according to their own needs of perception.


That can happen in visions. Even in real visitations. Because Heaven shows, does this mean that how they "show instead of speak" may be less alien then how they might speak? Might not they have needed to translate via what was seen?

For instance, when Moses and the leaders of Israel were taken up to Heaven and ate and drank with the Lord... did the Lord, being a spirit, really need to eat and drink? Maybe spirits do eat and drink? Maybe not?

Or, consider another nook and cranny verse many miss: when a spirit came down from Heaven to speak and act through the prophets of Israel in order to mislead the king of Israel to his death.... how did that spirit imbue and so control so many different people at the same time? Maybe the consciousness of spirits is vastly different from the consciousness of human beings?

Never even mind the very odd moral implications on that series of verses.


Knowing can be a serious problem. If you "know" that you will not be surprised by some traumatic event tomorrow - or even today - how will you be prepared for it? If you must suddenly take a trip overseas, and you did not even pack. In fact, maybe you had a wedding planned! Or have to miss funerals and birthdays!

A good example: the "rapture" *theory* that has everyone literally just floating to the sky. End of story. Not much thinking required.

Yet, when Paul spoke of this change in a blink of an eye, he spoke of it is a literal change. Where can we find such a literal change in Scripture? At the mount of transfiguration, that is where!

And was Jesus misinforming us when he remarked on the **Jewish idea** of Heaven coming down from the sky so you can see it, by responding "that is *not* what happens"? Instead, pointing out Heaven is within and amongst us?

And at various times remarking how Heaven has come, and so you can see it by these powers he displayed?

Question: What did it mean when it was said Jesus was a little lower then the angels then? What are angels? Was Jesus not the Son of God? Questions. With a "s". Plural.

What if Israel finally does something like fire a nuclear missile? What happens in Syria collapses into a Sunni militant controlled chaotic mess, as Libya and parts of Iraq have done? How might that effect the stability of Israel? Would the UN ever be compelled to go against Israel? No? What if that happens? What would you think and say to your self then? Just consider it as a mental exercise.

You know, 'put your self in someone else's shoes' to think it out. Like you do all the time with your faithful obedience to 'the golden rule'.


What if the demons falling from Heaven has already happened? Could they take human form? What about angels? "Many" have seen them as people unawares? How many? Could demons and angels routinely pose as everyday people? Or just temporarily control them? How might a person think and behave if they lived to be a thousand years old? Six thousand years old? And were accustomed to observing all manner of peoples?


What if the "change" is like incubation of many insects: cocoons of worms to butterflies and moths? If so, are we incubating? Is our human flesh our true form? Or will we look as Moses and Elijah did on the mount? Consider they must have looked something like we know Jesus looked like transfigured from the reactions of the Apostles. (Described in Revelation and elsewhere.)



If you were a form of life incubating, then you probably have minders? And you may not know much of what is really going on even in "your" material world? Maybe?

 

[keras]

Midst, a coherent and logical end times sequence can be obtained from all the Bible prophesies. Revelations Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are a definite sequence and we are at present just before the Sixth Seal judgement/punishment of the nations. As described by 2 Peter 3:10, Isaiah 63:1-6, Hab 3:12 and many other prophesies. The world is now, as Jesus prophesied: 'as in the days of Noah'. This devastation of 'fire from the sky', Isaiah 66:15-16, Malachi 4:1, Hebrews 10:27, will reset civilization and prepare the world for the eventual Return of Jesus for His literal 1000 year reign on earth.
logostelos.info

 

[Interplanner]

so there is a separate fire from the sky from 2 Pet 3 which will melt things beyond recognition and call for a new earth to be formed? Do you realize this 2 Pet 3 says nothing about the mill, so if you throw that in there, you have to have two episodes, two endings, etc? All you doing is preserving 2P2P confusion, which need not be done.

 

[Bible2]

Midst said in post 1:

I do not know if the thousand years is metaphoric and in some way may have already happened

Note that there are at least 8 scriptural reasons to read the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

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Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, while currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), while currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), while there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving, unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), while by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the physical resurrection of the church will occur at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only physical resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Eighth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the 1st resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the 1st resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

Midst said in post 1:

I do not know what the Beasts are in Revelation, exactly

Note that "beasts" can refer figuratively to men (Titus 1:12). Revelation uses a Greek masculine-pronoun "him" to refer to its first beast (Revelation 13:8) when it is referring to the individual "man" (Revelation 13:18) aspect of its first beast, commonly called the Antichrist, the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

A 2nd aspect of Revelation's first beast is that it is a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11) who is now literally in the bottomless pit and will ascend from it during the future tribulation to spiritually empower the empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 17:8-11), empire being a 3rd aspect of the beast, represented by the animal symbols of Revelation 13:1-2. The fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince whom Satan had assigned to spiritually empower the ancient empire of Babylon, just as Satan had assigned other fallen angelic princes to spiritually empower the subsequent ancient empires of Persia and Greece (Daniel 10:13,20). When the ancient empire of Babylon was defeated, the fallen angelic prince empowering it could have been cast into the bottomless pit. This same fallen angel could be released to empower a revival of the empire of Babylon during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (of Revelation 13:5-18).

The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the bottomless pit could occur at the same time as the unbinding of 4 other powerful fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14b), who could have been bound there at the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon. When these 4 fallen angels are released at one point during the future tribulation, they will cause an army of 200 million strange horse-like beings to kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19). This could be done in order to make mankind completely desperate before its takeover by Satan and the Antichrist mid-tribulation, when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast down from heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7 to 13:18).

Midst said in post 1:

I do not know what the Beasts are in Revelation, exactly

The beast which comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in 2 religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the 2 horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus. (But he won't say that he is Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

Midst said in post 1:

I would love to know.

Like the goal of the NSA, Bible prophecy isn't missing any information, insofar as in it, Jesus has told believers everything which they need to know in order not to be deceived by anything that is coming: "take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23). "Take heed lest any man deceive you" (Mark 13:5).

That is, the main reason that the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

 

[kingdomwitness]

We should expect it in a few years I think.

 

[keras]

so there is a separate fire from the sky from 2 Pet 3 which will melt things beyond recognition and call for a new earth to be formed? Do you realize this 2 Pet 3 says nothing about the mill, so if you throw that in there, you have to have two episodes, two endings, etc? All you doing is preserving 2P2P confusion, which need not be done.

For one who says we shouldn't take prophecy literally, that is just what you do here.
2 Peter 3, is a sequence; it starts with an admonition against scoffers in the last days, which is our situation now. Something you and a few others should take heed of.
Then in verse 7, Peter says: The earth is reserved for burning...and the godless will be destroyed. This means the next thing we can expect is a judgement by fire, [prophesied many times in the Bible] that will destroy the godless, but the godly remain.
Peter then tells us in v10, that this is the Day that will come unexpectedly, the sky will disappear, paralleled by Isaiah 34:4 and Rev. 6:14 and flames will bring all that is in the earth to judgement. He then goes on to say because this will happen, we must live righteously and he reiterates this terrible , forthcoming fire judgement that will commence the end time events, leading up to the Return of Jesus.
Then in v13, Peter says we can look forward to a new heavens and earth, that we know from Rev 21:1, will come after the 1000 year Millennium reign of Jesus.
The main difficulty in understanding this prophecy, is the bias that translators put on it. 'Dissolved' for example is rendered from a Greek word actually meaning 'shall be loosed'. We must gain a true meaning for these passages by comparing them with other prophesies and by the knowledge that God does not intend to totally evaporate His creation, but to initially cleanse it and then eventually renew it.

 

[kingdomwitness]

Hmmn. Looking at the current situation in Middle East, we can expect something more to arise, like a world war 3 that would lead to the arrival of the Antichrist as a peace maker.

 

[Bible2]

kingdomwitness said in post 7:

Looking at the current situation in Middle East, we can expect something more to arise, like a world war 3 that would lead to the arrival of the Antichrist as a peace maker.

That could be right, insofar as the Antichrist may not appear on the world stage until after the horrible, future, tribulation-starting war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 has resulted in the total defeat and occupation of Israel, and Egypt, and the death of 1/4 of the world. It could be this war which will help open the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace and antitypically fulfill the "vile" person of Daniel 11:21-45.

One way this war could happen is the U.S. could undertake a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army, initially to prevent the Islamic State militant group (also known as ISIS, or ISIL) from taking over Iraq, and Syria, and all the rest of the Middle East, and eventually so that the Iraqi Army can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (i.e. that which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein), to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly.

And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein's rule), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For they could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to keep ISIS/ISIL under control, and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform, for they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, "false flag" operations could be managed by the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false Messiah: cf. Matthew 24:24) could completely destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The first thing that the Antichrist could do once he is given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist confederation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated and occupied Israel), is to perform a small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22).

These ultra-Orthodox Jews could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it is not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm (such as by incapacitating its Jewish defenders with huge clouds of tear gas while tens of thousands of Arab soldiers wearing gas masks take control of the city by climbing over its walls on thousands of tall ladders).

But then, instead of imprisoning or executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23), permitting them to keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City of Jerusalem, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It is all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well-equipped and -advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat and occupy Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses across the Arab world as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were free and far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings and sheikhs of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "Hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat and occupation of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a United Arab States, or Arab Union, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of "World peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich Arab Union join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break it, attack the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 literal days (Revelation 12:6).

The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). The 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus returns, he will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9), and he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church (including those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

 

[Interplanner]

Keras,
once again "literalism" means jump to the future, this time the future scoffers. Peter said what he said there for his times. That's why the 1st people to read that chapter were not us, but his readers. Or did you not notice that?

As for the two endings, I was taking your description in the plain normal sense. How do you have a massive destruction from the sky, and then have an Armageddon after that?

 

[Interplanner]

Keras,
that item you call the "main difficulty"? It is total, sir. it shows that the Mill is nowhere in mind as you think. "Be loosed" in terms of the melting in the heat would be the disbanding of atomic structure as we know it. If you're thinking 'be loosed' from Satan's control through a millenium, that is wreckless and impossible. You're quite a ways off here.

The passage is one of several in the NT that summarize the events of the end of time and the 2nd coming without any Judaic references or features. I know of no explanation of that which is satisfactory.

 

[Interplanner]

B2,
the vile personage of Daniel was the guy who ruined Israel in the mid-1st century.

Your credibility is in reverse proportion to the size of your posts. When your opening lines make some sense, I'd be glad to read a few more.

You can't write yourself into credibility just by sheer amount.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Biblewriter]

I agree with the OP in as far as the discussion applies to the apocalyptic visions of the prophets. The fact is, they, although we have many various opinions about what they mean, they are all exactly and only that - opinions.

But many prophecies in the Bible are totally different. They are stated in plain, simple language, and contain nothing that is even partly difficult to understand. Our duty is not to understand these prophecies, but to believe them.

 

[Belly Rumble]

DID YOU KNOW: That Christians cannot figure out who is the nation that will come against Israel is in the last days. They wonder if it is Russia, China, Europe, Muslim Jihad, ect.....The answer lies in one very special verse found in Jeremiah 6:22. In that verse Jesus (the Word) tells us that a (great nation) will be RAISED FROM the farthest partS of the EARTH. He also says that when this nation/ARMY attacks Israel that it will begin it's campaign from the north (Euphrates River). A key thing to notice is they don't come from the farthest parts of the North they "come from" the farthest parts of the planet!!! They will come out of the North by the Euphrates River to begin their Campaign of Death (6th Trumpet). In Isaiah we read that Father actually helps to get the 4th Beast Kingdom started by whistling for all the naive terrible people from around the planet to go to Iraq and Syria to form the first Muslim Caliphate. After this Caliphate has conquered all of the Muslim Nations' Leadership and Armies in the Middle East they will have enough weapons to overrun Israel. Israel will make a peace treaty with them in some fashion that makes Father very upset against Israel.
Hosea 6

A Call to Repentance

1 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

 

[Interplanner]

Sorry BW, but I don't know how you ever got to your position that prophecies "weren't even partly difficult." Go ahead and worship your brain.

As for me, I'll wait till all the "dust" of Dan 9 settles; I just know the main shapes and features are not futurist.

 

[Biblewriter]

DID YOU KNOW: That Christians cannot figure out who is the nation that will come against Israel is in the last days. They wonder if it is Russia, China, Europe, Muslim Jihad, ect.....The answer lies in one very special verse found in Jeremiah 6:22. In that verse Jesus (the Word) tells us that a (great nation) will be RAISED FROM the farthest partS of the EARTH. He also says that when this nation/ARMY attacks Israel that it will begin it's campaign from the north (Euphrates River). A key thing to notice is they don't come from the farthest parts of the North they "come from" the farthest parts of the planet!!! They will come out of the North by the Euphrates River to begin their Campaign of Death (6th Trumpet). In Isaiah we read that Father actually helps to get the 4th Beast Kingdom started by whistling for all the naive terrible people from around the planet to go to Iraq and Syria to form the first Muslim Caliphate. After this Caliphate has conquered all of the Muslim Nations' Leadership and Armies in the Middle East they will have enough weapons to overrun Israel. Israel will make a peace treaty with them in some fashion that makes Father very upset against Israel.
Hosea 6

A Call to Repentance

1 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

The reason that Christians cannot figure this out is that they ignore some of the most plain and explicit statements of scripture.

"When the Assyrian comes into our land, And when he treads in our palaces, Then we will raise against him Seven shepherds and eight princely men. They shall waste with the sword the land of Assyria, And the land of Nimrod at its entrances; Thus He shall deliver us from the Assyrian, When he comes into our land And when he treads within our borders." (Micah 5:5-6)

There can be zero doubt that this prophecy, which is couched in the plainest language possible, has never been fulfilled, for when the ancient Assyrian king invaded, there was no power to resist him at all, much less "Seven shepherds and eight princely men." And no Israeli army has ever wasted "with the sword the land of Assyria."

Again, people simply assume that this prophecy was only speaking of Sennacherib:

"Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger And the staff in whose hand is My indignation. I will send him against an ungodly nation, And against the people of My wrath I will give him charge, To seize the spoil, to take the prey, And to tread them down like the mire of the streets." (Isaiah 10:5-6)

But this prophecy goes on to say:

"He has come to Aiath, He has passed Migron; At Michmash he has attended to his equipment. They have gone along the ridge, They have taken up lodging at Geba. Ramah is afraid, Gibeah of Saul has fled. Lift up your voice, O daughter of Gallim! Cause it to be heard as far as Laish-- O poor Anathoth! Madmenah has fled, The inhabitants of Gebim seek refuge. As yet he will remain at Nob that day; He will shake his fist at the mount of the daughter of Zion, The hill of Jerusalem." (Isaiah 10:28-32)

There is no single item of ancient history more absolutely established that the campaign of Sennacherib against Hezekiah. We do not just have medieval copies of ancient manuscripts, we have the actual documents written by the scribes of Sennacherib, pressed into clay and fired into terra-cotta. These documents plainly show that Sennacherib followed an entirely different route when he invaded Judea. And the path described in Isaiah 10:28-32 is an approach on Jerusalem from the north. But 2 Kings 18:17, 2 Chronicles 32:9, and Isaiah 36:2 all say Sennacherib’s forces came to Jerusalem from Lachish, which was southwest of Jerusalem. Archeologists have found extensive evidence of Assyrian presence in this southern region, but not in any part of ancient Judea north of Jerusalem.

So we have two plainly stated prophecies, which have both unquestionably not been fulfilled, and both of which name the attacker as "the Assyrian."

Please note that Assyria was the northern part of what is now called Iraq.

 

[Interplanner]

I think you've missed quite a bit of the intention here BW.

Did you notice that the last verses quoted before you began were about being plundered by Assyria, but sound like the plight of Christ (3 days...rise again...)? Did you know from all your reading of Josephus that the zealots appealed to the Nabateans for help, which replicated the problem here in Hos 5:13 (placing trust in the wrong place, only to be decimated).

Israel was being ruined by its misguided leaders but the real Israel rises in Christ; this is what the 1st century is about. I Pet 2, I cor 15 and Lk 24 all use the language of Hos 5 about the Gospel event, which was the destiny of Israel. The problem is 2P2P's other destiny for Israel. It is also I Cor 15 that cleverly uses the 'victory over death' theme about the Gospel, even though in the original Isaian passages, it is about the destiny of Israel.

But of course your declarations have much more weight.

For the sake of argument, in the long view of things, would it really matter if Senn made a J run? He still had to come from the north... That part of Iraq you're speaking of is "north." So what if he made a diversionary move? Isn't "north" still "north"?

 

[Biblewriter]

I think you've missed quite a bit of the intention here BW.

Did you notice that the last verses quoted before you began were about being plundered by Assyria, but sound like the plight of Christ (3 days...rise again...)? Did you know from all your reading of Josephus that the zealots appealed to the Nabateans for help, which replicated the problem here in Hos 5:13 (placing trust in the wrong place, only to be decimated).

Israel was being ruined by its misguided leaders but the real Israel rises in Christ; this is what the 1st century is about. I Pet 2, I cor 15 and Lk 24 all use the language of Hos 5 about the Gospel event, which was the destiny of Israel. The problem is 2P2P's other destiny for Israel. It is also I Cor 15 that cleverly uses the 'victory over death' theme about the Gospel, even though in the original Isaian passages, it is about the destiny of Israel.

But of course your declarations have much more weight.

For the sake of argument, in the long view of things, would it really matter if Senn made a J run? He still had to come from the north... That part of Iraq you're speaking of is "north." So what if he made a diversionary move? Isn't "north" still "north"?

This is pure deceptiveness. You know perfectly well that the Assyrians did not attack Jerusalem circa 70 A.D., nor did the Judeans waste the land of Assyria with the sword at that time or at any other time.