Exodus and Egyptian Chronology

[SuperCow]

Because of the similarities w/ the Epic of Gilgamesh and the mention of Mount Ararat, it has been suggested that the Flood affected mainly Mesopotamia. Interestingly, Gilgamesh lived between c. 2900 – 2350 BC, and the biblical Flood is dated 2348 BC.

Note that it is possible to have a global flood that kills everyone without covering the top of every mountain on earth. Even if it covered Ararat, Everest is still over 12000 feet higher, but not visible to Noah. Genesis 7:20 says it covered the mountains by 15 cubits. That's not sufficient to cover mountains in other continents. (Although NIV words it differently)

I will accept the scholarly consensus until they change their views . But your theory has merit.

That's your right. Ask 10 people about this and you get 10 different opinions. But if major civilizations in a world filled with violence were allowed to continue, what was the point of the flood? Why should Noah have to remain stranded on the ark for a year when he could have drifted to Egypt or something.

If, in the Last Glacial Period, ice sheets covered the northern parts of North America, Europe, and Asia, then subsequent flooding in the early Holocene Age did not affect the Middle East as much. This is actually the case:

Holocene - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

My point is that the ice age effect should be (with some geographical and weather variation) centered around the poles, and geologist studies show that North America was severely affected very far south, but Asia almost has no evidence at all until you get close to Europe. This doesn't make sense unless the poles shifted by 30 degrees since the ice age.

In a comet scenario, it would be centered around the impact zone, and that appears to have been somewhere near or in the Hudson Bay in Canada. The ice is around this point, and the flood occurs everywhere else, first by tsunami waves and then from the ice melting over the next 5 months. (And according to Genesis 7:11 tectonic upheavals.)

This is possible, but the Flood will still have to be around 2348 BC, according to the Bible, which means that it has to be local in Mesopotamia as it did not destroy the pyramids of Egypt. The only way around this is your method of reducing Egyptian chronology or suggesting a wide gap in the biblical record between the Flood and Abraham. Remember that when Abraham went to Egypt, it was fully civilized and prosperous. It could not have been established by Mizraim and his wife a mere 3 generations before Abraham.

Abraham was the 10th generation from Noah. Mizraim was the 2nd. According to the Bible, all 10 generations were still alive when Abraham was born. (Due to much longer lifespans which didn't really settle down to today's standards until sometime during the judges period.) If everyone had an average of 6 children (3 male and 3 female), then by Abraham's time there is more than half a million people on the earth. (With 8 children that goes up to 8.4 million) Divide that by the 70 or so civilizations mentioned in Genesis 10 and you have about 7500 people per civilization. (With 8 children it's over 100,000 per civilization)

The king of Egypt is not named, and in my reasoning, Abraham visits during the 1st dynasty, and Joseph during the 5th dynasty. There's no reason to think Egypt wasn't relatively prosperous in the 1st dynasty when compared to every other civilization at that time. And what do you mean by civilized? All we know for sure is that Egypt had a king, and people tended to go to Egypt during famines, because they tended to be better off. That the king would even take notice of Abraham's cohort would indicate that Egypt was not that massive of an empire yet.

 

[Andrewn]

Note that it is possible to have a global flood that kills everyone without covering the top of every mountain on earth. Even if it covered Ararat, Everest is still over 12000 feet higher, but not visible to Noah. Genesis 7:20 says it covered the mountains by 15 cubits. That's not sufficient to cover mountains in other continents. (Although NIV words it differently)

Yes, it is possible that even with a global Flood scenario, a few people could have survived in places far away from the Middle East.

Ask 10 people about this and you get 10 different opinions. But if major civilizations in a world filled with violence were allowed to continue, what was the point of the flood? Why should Noah have to remain stranded on the ark for a year when he could have drifted to Egypt or something.

Good questions.

My point is that the ice age effect should be (with some geographical and weather variation) centered around the poles, and geologist studies show that North America was severely affected very far south, but Asia almost has no evidence at all until you get close to Europe. This doesn't make sense unless the poles shifted by 30 degrees since the ice age.

I no longer find the melting ice a viable explanation for the biblical Flood.

In a comet scenario, it would be centered around the impact zone, and that appears to have been somewhere near or in the Hudson Bay in Canada. The ice is around this point, and the flood occurs everywhere else, first by tsunami waves and then from the ice melting over the next 5 months. (And according to Genesis 7:11 tectonic upheavals.)

Are we, Christians, doing young people a disservice and driving them out of the Church when we insist there was a global Flood around 2348 BC that wiped out everything everywhere and all scientists in all different disciplines are wrong?

Abraham was the 10th generation from Noah. Mizraim was the 2nd. According to the Bible, all 10 generations were still alive when Abraham was born. (Due to much longer lifespans which didn't really settle down to today's standards until sometime during the judges period.) If everyone had an average of 6 children (3 male and 3 female), then by Abraham's time there is more than half a million people on the earth. (With 8 children that goes up to 8.4 million) Divide that by the 70 or so civilizations mentioned in Genesis 10 and you have about 7500 people per civilization. (With 8 children it's over 100,000 per civilization)

Your calculations are probably correct. I haven't tried biblical chronology since I was a teenager . According to your calculation, by the time Abraham entered Egypt in the 20th century BC, there were only 7,500-10,000 people living there. Not enough to farm the land, keep an economy going, and build pyramids.

The king of Egypt is not named, and in my reasoning, Abraham visits during the 1st dynasty, and Joseph during the 5th dynasty. There's no reason to think Egypt wasn't relatively prosperous in the 1st dynasty when compared to every other civilization at that time.

Talking about the Flood is a can of worms for me . You can present your views in the Creation & Theistic Evolution forum.

All we know for sure is that Egypt had a king, and people tended to go to Egypt during famines, because they tended to be better off. That the king would even take notice of Abraham's cohort would indicate that Egypt was not that massive of an empire yet.

The Pharaoh in Exodus also took notice of Moses and Aaron, which is strange, especially since the capital was far south in Thebes!! But it is possible that Pharaoh had a military camp near his frontier in Lower Egypt. We have to concede that these episodes are not to be understood literally or else reject everything we know from science, as young-earth creationists do. I've seen many articles supporting your views on creation.com. They believe that Mizraim is Menes and Joseph is Djoser and so on. Even if YEC's are right, I think they alienate the youth.

 

[SuperCow]

I no longer find the melting ice a viable explanation for the biblical Flood.

It isn't. Neither is 40 days of rain. the Bible says much of the water came from underneath the ground from reservoirs that was already there.

Are we, Christians, doing young people a disservice and driving them out of the Church when we insist there was a global Flood around 2348 BC that wiped out everything everywhere and all scientists in all different disciplines are wrong?

I don't think the scientists in all disciplines are wrong. We drive them away when we insist on Medieval interpretations of scripture that not even the ancients believed. We drive them away when we insist that the pope or [insert religious leader here] is the infallible conduit for all information from God. And we drive them away when we tell them the Bible cannot be trusted. What cannot be trusted is human interpretation, human preservation and human leadership and so we need to verify what we read and test our faith in these ideas. (As noted by the apostle Paul)

Your calculations are probably correct. I haven't tried biblical chronology since I was a teenager . According to your calculation, by the time Abraham entered Egypt in the 20th century BC, there were only 7,500-10,000 people living there. Not enough to farm the land, keep an economy going, and build pyramids.

There were no pyramids when Abraham visited Egypt. Those weren't built until the 3rd dynasty and I think Abraham visited before that.

The Pharaoh in Exodus also took notice of Moses and Aaron, which is strange, especially since the capital was far south in Thebes!! But it is possible that Pharaoh had a military camp near his frontier in Lower Egypt. We have to concede that these episodes are not to be understood literally or else reject everything we know from science, as young-earth creationists do. I've seen many articles supporting your views on creation.com. They believe that Mizraim is Menes and Joseph is Djoser and so on. Even if YEC's are right, I think they alienate the youth.

The 6th dynasty was in Memphis, and the 12th and 13th were in Itjtawy. And for the Hyksos expulsion camp, the 14th and 15th were in Avaris. All of these were lower Egypt.

By contrast, the 18th and 19th dynasty Pharaohs were in Thebes, which is another strike against those being the time of the Exodus as Moses and Aaron frequently went back and forth between Pharaoh and the Israelite community.

 

[Andrewn]

And we drive them away when we tell them the Bible cannot be trusted.

This is a huge issue that derives serious discussion across denominations. Andy Stanley has been talking about this problem.

There were no pyramids when Abraham visited Egypt. Those weren't built until the 3rd dynasty and I think Abraham visited before that.

This is your opinion (and YEC). As far as everyone else is concerned, Djoser's pyramid was already 700 years old. The Great Pyramid of Khufu was over 600 years old. This is more than double the age of the United States.

The 6th dynasty was in Memphis,

This is when the biblical Flood took place.

and the 12th and 13th were in Itjtawy.

This is when Abraham, Joseph, and Jacob came to Egypt.

And for the Hyksos expulsion camp, the 14th and 15th were in Avaris. All of these were lower Egypt. By contrast, the 18th and 19th dynasty Pharaohs were in Thebes,

As I mentioned, it is possible that Pharaoh Ahmoses had a military camp near his frontier in Lower Egypt.

 

[SuperCow]

This is a huge issue that derives serious discussion across denominations. Andy Stanley has been talking about this problem.

I think that vast majority of Christians fall into the category posted by @FaithT "All of This is getting way over my head." Yes, a lot of people are interested in the topic, but far more could really care less about history in general, and they don't have any idea which Pharaoh is a candidate or why it matters. What really is important is that pastors be educated in these things so they can provide an intelligent response when their members have doubts related to archaeology.

This is your opinion (and YEC). As far as everyone else is concerned, Djoser's pyramid was already 700 years old. The Great Pyramid of Khufu was over 600 years old. This is more than double the age of the United States.

And the opinion of a literal reading of the Bible. While I am not convinced in the 100% infallible transmission of the Bible books from 100 generations ago, it is the best option until new information comes to light. (Similar to your feeling that the majority of the scientists must be right until proven otherwise.)

As I mentioned, it is possible that Pharaoh Ahmoses had a military camp near his frontier in Lower Egypt.

And after conquering the Hyksos, that was probably an absolute necessity, but I'm not sure of the relevance. The expulsion of the Hyksos according to secular history has nothing in common with the Exodus story, other than the fact that Asiatics apparently were forced out of Egypt. The Hyksos were kings. The Israelites were slaves, at least following the death of Jacob's 12 sons. (The only exception might be Joseph who as a governor might have appeared to be like a king in some ways, and his brothers might have had some limited authority in Goshen.) The Hyksos were forced out in battle. The Israelites escaped after a divine victory that destroyed Pharaoh's army.

The only thing that holds that theory together is the timeline, which has many, many different opinions about it.

 

[Andrewn]

What really is important is that pastors be educated in these things so they can provide an intelligent response when their members have doubts related to archaeology.

I agree. It isn't easy to walk on this tightrope. William Craig, Andy Stanley, and others have attempted to provide answers. I am interested in this subject and will be researching their solutions more. The OT cannot be rejected. At the same time, it cannot be said to be inerrant. It cannot be dismissed because, as Christ said, it talks about Him. And the NT talks about OT saints and OT incidents. The OT cannot be rejected, but it has to be read in the light of the NT. Andy Stanley refused to say that the OT is the first floor of the building. He said it was the basement. This is a good analogy. People are leaving Christianity because we insist they believe in literal interpretations of the OT. It is our fault.

While I am not convinced in the 100% infallible transmission of the Bible books from 100 generations ago, it is the best option until new information comes to light. (Similar to your feeling that the majority of the scientists must be right until proven otherwise.)

I certainly keep an open mind. Perhaps biblical chronology will be proven right after all. We'll see if researchers will change their opinion about Egypt's chronology. Meanwhile, I can't tell young people that scientists are wrong. Christians are already being accused of siding against science. And many Christians provided ammunition for these accusations by being anti-vaxxers and anti-masking. Daystar Christian Network was a leader in promoting conspiracy theories during the Pandemic.

The expulsion of the Hyksos according to secular history has nothing in common with the Exodus story, other than the fact that Asiatics apparently were forced out of Egypt. The Hyksos were kings. The Israelites were slaves, at least following the death of Jacob's 12 sons. (The only exception might be Joseph who as a governor might have appeared to be like a king in some ways, and his brothers might have had some limited authority in Goshen.) The Hyksos were forced out in battle. The Israelites escaped after a divine victory that destroyed Pharaoh's army. The only thing that holds that theory together is the timeline, which has many, many different opinions about it.

I'm really glad you mentioned these differences. In the parallel thread that we both participated in, I asked the question, "Do you believe that the Israelites departed a few decades before the Hyksos, at the same time as the Hyksos, or a few decades after the Hyksos? Which scenario makes more sense to you?" So, I will ask you the same question. Keep in mind that the Bible says:

1) Deu 23:7 “You shall not abhor any of the Edomites, for they are your kin. You shall not abhor any of the Egyptians because you were an alien residing in their land. 8 The children of the third generation that are born to them may come into the assembly of the Lord.

2) Joseph, Jacob, and the Patriarchs were treated well by Middle Kingdom Pharaohs and given the rich land of Goshen before the Hyksos came to power in Egypt.

Is it possible the Pharaoh who did not know Joseph and mistreated the Israelites was the Hyksos? Is it possible that the Israelites were not the Hyksos and that the Exodus took place a few decades before the expulsion of the Hyksos or a few decades after the expulsion of the Hyksos?

 

[SuperCow]

I agree. It isn't easy to walk on this tightrope. William Craig, Andy Stanley, and others have attempted to provide answers. I am interested in this subject and will be researching their solutions more. The OT cannot be rejected. At the same time, it cannot be said to be inerrant. It cannot be dismissed because, as Christ said, it talks about Him. And the NT talks about OT saints and OT incidents. The OT cannot be rejected, but it has to be read in the light of the NT. Andy Stanley refused to say that the OT is the first floor of the building. He said it was the basement. This is a good analogy. People are leaving Christianity because we insist they believe in literal interpretations of the OT. It is our fault.

Most of Genesis is a chronological story. Small portions are metaphorical. (Genesis 3:15 for instance) Genesis 1 is the trickiest to manage and is the most inconsistent position of theologians in my opinion when they say it is literal. Try to write a maximum 800 word essay on the origin of the earth. And it has to be understandable for people with no scientific training and preferably for children to understand as well. That's basically what you have in the origin chapter. Not a book with 300 pages specifically on the same subject.

I certainly keep an open mind. Perhaps biblical chronology will be proven right after all. We'll see if researchers will change their opinion about Egypt's chronology. Meanwhile, I can't tell young people that scientists are wrong. Christians are already being accused of siding against science. And many Christians provided ammunition for these accusations by being anti-vaxxers and anti-masking. Daystar Christian Network was a leader in promoting conspiracy theories during the Pandemic.

You're forgetting that there are archaeologists and researchers that support the Biblical chronology. (With the appropriate degrees in the field if that is what determines a necessary credential.) They just happen to be at odds with other secular researchers who are at the other end of the spectrum. And there are those at various points in the middle where you seem to be. It's not a case of telling Christians that scientists are wrong. It's a case of directing them to which scientists support Biblical research and why there are so many differences of opinion.

I'm really glad you mentioned these differences. In the parallel thread that we both participated in, I asked the question, "Do you believe that the Israelites departed a few decades before the Hyksos, at the same time as the Hyksos, or a few decades after the Hyksos? Which scenario makes more sense to you?" So, I will ask you the same question. Keep in mind that the Bible says:

1) Deu 23:7 “You shall not abhor any of the Edomites, for they are your kin. You shall not abhor any of the Egyptians because you were an alien residing in their land. 8 The children of the third generation that are born to them may come into the assembly of the Lord.

2) Joseph, Jacob, and the Patriarchs were treated well by Middle Kingdom Pharaohs and given the rich land of Goshen before the Hyksos came to power in Egypt.

Is it possible the Pharaoh who did not know Joseph and mistreated the Israelites was the Hyksos? Is it possible that the Israelites were not the Hyksos and that the Exodus took place a few decades before the expulsion of the Hyksos or a few decades after the expulsion of the Hyksos?

I am opposed to theories in direct contradiction to the Bible that pretend to support the Bible. It's inconsistent and illogical to use the Bible to support a theory that opposes the Biblical narrative. Therefore, my opposition was to the idea that the Hyksos=Israelites. There are three valid theories regarding the Hyksos (in the sense that they are consistent positions):

#1 Anti-Biblical Archaeologists : The Exodus never happened. The Israelites rose from Canaanite tribes.
#2 Conventional Biblical Group : They are the Pharaohs that oppressed the Israelites (14th and 15th dynasties), and the departure of the Israelites paved the way for Egyptians to regain control of lower Egypt after being 16th century vassals for a couple of centuries.
#3 Alternative Biblical Group : The Hyksos were able to conquer Egypt in the first place because of the departure of the Israelites during the 12th or 13th dynasty.

There are credited researchers both ancient and modern in each of these three camps.

Inconsistent and impossible positions:

#4 Cinematic Group : The Pharaoh that oppressed Israel was Seti I or Ramesses II. (Charlton Heston is Moses).
#5 Elitist Group : The source of the Israelite religion was the Akhenaten heresy, the first monotheistic religion in history.

 

[Andrewn]

Genesis 1 is the trickiest to manage and is the most inconsistent position of theologians in my opinion when they say it is literal. Try to Tamia write a maximum 800 word essay on the origin of the earth. And it has to be understandable for people with no scientific training and preferably for children to understand as well. That's basically what you have in the origin chapter. Not a book with 300 pages specifically on the same subject.

I agree. I also appreciate Gen 1 for not succumbing to weird creation theories like Buddhism, Hinduism, and the religions of ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt. For me, the Flood is a bigger problem to explain, this is why I called it a can of worms.

You're forgetting that there are archaeologists and researchers that support the Biblical chronology. (With the appropriate degrees in the field if that is what determines a necessary credential.) They just happen to be at odds with other secular researchers who are at the other end of the spectrum.

Yes, there are YEC scientists, and I respect their work and own some of their books and magazines. It doesn't hurt to explain their positions to young people.

There are three valid theories regarding the Hyksos (in the sense that they are consistent positions):

#1 Anti-Biblical Archaeologists : The Exodus never happened. The Israelites rose from Canaanite tribes.
#2 Conventional Biblical Group : They are the Pharaohs that oppressed the Israelites (14th and 15th dynasties), and the departure of the Israelites paved the way for Egyptians to regain control of lower Egypt after being 16th century vassals for a couple of centuries.
#3 Alternative Biblical Group : The Hyksos were able to conquer Egypt in the first place because of the departure of the Israelites during the 12th or 13th dynasty.

I assume #3 would be possible in a YEC scenario. Scenario #2 sounds like the Israelites were oppressed by the Hyksos and left Egypt a few decades before the expulsion of Hyksos.

Inconsistent and impossible positions:

#4 Cinematic Group : The Pharaoh that oppressed Israel was Seti I or Ramesses II. (Charlton Heston is Moses).
#5 Elitist Group : The source of the Israelite religion was the Akhenaten heresy, the first monotheistic religion in history.

These two theories share similarities. I'm surprised you rejected them completely when people like Albright and Freud entertained these possibilities. I already mentioned support for an Iron Age Exodus. The second reference below may give this theory another chance.

William F. Albright - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

http://individual.utoronto.ca/mfkolarcik/texts/JohnBrightIntroAppend.pdf

 

[SuperCow]

Yes, there are YEC scientists, and I respect their work and own some of their books and magazines. It doesn't hurt to explain their positions to young people.

They're not all YEC scientists. David Kohl, for instance, isn't even a Christian, but thinks the Biblical chronology should be given equal weight to all other cultures records. He believes the flood story was a result of the Black Sea breaching the Bosphorus strait in Turkey, and thinks the Genesis 5 chronology is a listing of different dynasties or clans rather than literal lifespans. That being said, he's published all sorts of evidence that most archaeologists are looking at artifacts in the wrong time. (Jericho is usually the obvious one, but he focuses on Egypt.)

 

[Andrewn]

He believes the flood story was a result of the Black Sea breaching the Bosphorus strait in Turkey,

Any widespread flood affecting the Middle East prior to when civilizations started in Mesopotamia and Egypt in 3200 BC is a reasonable candidate:

This presumably took place around 5600 BC.