Exodus and Egyptian Chronology

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
It is my opinion that the Exodus occurred about 1570 BC.
This is the date of the expulsion of the Hyksos, and I used to think that the exodus took place at the same time. But the Bible implies a date around 1446 BC. A theory based on a statement in Chronicles implies that the Israelites were already in Canaan when the tribe of Judah and associated tribes came out in 1446 BC. This is possible.

This timeline would be 1600 years before Jesus was baptized and explain why Jesus needed to be baptized. This timeline would, also, line up with the volcanic explosion on Santorini.
The Minoan Eruption likely caused vast destruction in Egypt and Cannan. Its relationship to the Hyksos / Israelite residence in Egypt would be nice to explore. But information is lacking.

How does this relate to Jesus' baptism?
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The 'revised' date puts it about 1250 + or -.
Rather than biblical chronology, this date is based on the establishment of the city of Raamses and the Iron Age in Cannan. This theory implies the period of Judges was quite short, but it has more support among scholars for the above-mentioned reasons.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

EclipseEventSigns

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2022
448
85
Western Canada
✟31,781.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Based on verified archaeological evidence for a 586 BC destruction and fire of Jerusalem and the Temple and a proper understanding of the dates given in the Old Testament (not the Greek translation Septuagint), the Exodus is revealed to have taken place in 1457 BC. This date also matches the historical evidence for the 7 year Sabbatical cycle.
presentation_Exodus_Part2_16.png
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
the Exodus is revealed to have taken place in 1457 BC.
It is pointless to argue whether the Exodus occurred in 1457 or 1446 BC. Both dates are so close that we can say approximately 1450 BC. The real question is whether the Exodus was around 1450 or 1250 BC, during the Iron Age.
 
Upvote 0

EclipseEventSigns

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2022
448
85
Western Canada
✟31,781.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It is pointless to argue whether the Exodus occurred in 1457 or 1446 BC. Both dates are so close that we can say approximately 1450 BC. The real question is whether the Exodus was around 1450 or 1250 BC, during the Iron Age.
Not pointless at all. Since a proper understanding of exactly which date fits like a glove into the entire timeline of human history. The Creation year, the Flood, the Resurrection and the expected Day of the Lord all need to be consistent with each other. And 1457 BC is a very important event in that timeline.
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Not pointless at all. Since a proper understanding of exactly which date fits like a glove into the entire timeline of human history. The Creation year, the Flood, the Resurrection and the expected Day of the Lord all need to be consistent with each other. And 1457 BC is a very important event in that timeline.
Pharaoh Thutmoses III started his military campaign in Canaan in 1457 BC. Were the Israelites involved in the campaign? Scholars have suggested that the Habiru were mercenaries. It is impossible to know for sure :) .
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I read that the Egyptian chariots at the bottom of the sea is false
Snopes reports it as false.

Another site reports with skepticism, especially about John Wyatt, as he is not an archeological expert, but
a hobbyist in the subject. However, they don't make outright statements pro or con.

The video with Simcha Jacobovici, shows a realistic interpretation of the events described in
the book of Exodus.

I'm not a Scripture Scholar, nor archeologists, so he could be blowing smoke, but
his evidence is pretty convincing.
 
Upvote 0

EclipseEventSigns

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2022
448
85
Western Canada
✟31,781.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There are many incorrect dates in your chart that I could nitpick on, but I will not. It's not worth it :).
Sure. Do it. I invite anyone to present (actual) evidence to the contrary. The dates I put forward are from the latest Biblical research - not tradition - and not secular archeology.
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Sure. Do it. I invite anyone to present (actual) evidence to the contrary.
I'll oblige:

1) According to your chart, Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 586, but instead, they were destroyed in the summer of 587 BC based on Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and 2 Kings.

2) According to your chart, David began his reign in 1022, but instead, he started his reign in 1010 BC based on the chronology of the kings of Judah in the OT.

3) Based on your chart, the Exodus was 435 years before David's reign, but the Apostle Paul said:

Act 13:20 for about four hundred fifty years. After that, he gave them judges until the time of the prophet Samuel.

And you need to add to the 450 years, 40 years in the wilderness, and sufficient time for Saul's reign.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

EclipseEventSigns

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2022
448
85
Western Canada
✟31,781.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I'll oblige:

1) According to your chart, Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 586, but instead, they were destroyed in the summer of 587 BC based on Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and 2 Kings.

2) According to your chart, David began his reign in 1022, but instead, he started his reign in 1010 BC based on the chronology of the kings of Judah in the OT.

3) Based on your chart, the Exodus was 435 years before David's reign, but the Apostle Paul said:

Act 13:20 for about four hundred fifty years. After that, he gave them judges until the time of the prophet Samuel.

And you need to add to the 450 years, 40 years in the wilderness, and sufficient time for Saul's reign.
Actually, no, none of those points are correct according to latest Biblical research.
1. This very recent archaeological work shows that 586 BC was the actual date. The Earth’s magnetic field in Jerusalem during the Babylonian destruction: A unique reference for field behavior and an anchor for archaeomagnetic dating
And no, the various dates in the Bible do not lead to 587 BC for the destruction.
[Jer 32:1 ESV] 1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD in the tenth year of Zedekiah king of Judah, which was the eighteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar.
[Jer 39:2 ESV] 2 In the eleventh year of Zedekiah, in the fourth month, on the ninth day of the month, a breach was made in the city.


According to this information, Zedekiah's reign ended in his 11th year. His 10th year is equivalent to Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year. Nebuchadnezzar ascended his throne in 605 BC. 19 years later is 586 BC.

2. I can't go through all the reigns of the kings here. I do have a very detailed spreadsheet which confirms the 1022 BC date. But it's even easier to determine. Jerusalem destroyed in 586 BC. Ezekiel states that 6 years previous, God's glory left the Temple. Just before this, God had told Ezekiel to perform an object lesson showing 390 days (years) for Israel and 40 days (years) for Judah. This is equivalent to David's 40 year reign starting in Judah and the subsequent reigns of kings for 390 years until God left the temple. 430 years. 592 BC - 430 years = 1022 BC start of David's reign.

3. You took the Acts13:20 passage out of context. Paul does NOT say the Exodus happened 450 years before Samuel.
[Act 13:17-20 ESV] 17 The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with uplifted arm he led them out of it. 18 And for about forty years he put up with them in the wilderness. 19 And after destroying seven nations in the land of Canaan, he gave them their land as an inheritance. 20 All this took about 450 years. And after that he gave them judges until Samuel the prophet.

Paul specifically states "all this". What was the "all this" he referred to? Everything starting back at the beginning of v 17 - "God of this people Israel chose our fathers". Paul ends the 450 years when God "gave them their land as an inheritance". When did these things happen?

[Jos 14:10 ESV] 10 And now, behold, the LORD has kept me alive, just as he said, these forty-five years since the time that the LORD spoke this word to Moses, while Israel walked in the wilderness. And now, behold, I am this day eighty-five years old.
Joshua apportioned the land 45 years after Moses told him to spy out the land.

God chose the fathers when He made a covenant with Abraham when he was 99 years old and promised a son, Isaac.
[Gen 17:8 ESV] 8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God."

So if the Exodus was in 1457 BC, add 45 years = 1412 BC (the land apportioned)
Go back 450 years = 1862/1863 BC - when Abraham made covenant at 99 years old.
Go back 24 years = 1887 BC - when Abraham was first chosen by God at 75 years old and this was 430 years until the Exodus (Gen 12:4, Ex 12:41)

So yes, all the dates given in the Bible are internally consistent. Showing the Exodus was in 1457 BC.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I will not go into debating whether David reigned from 1010 or 1022 BC. This is an insignificant difference. Here is the real issue:

20 All this took about 450 years. And after that he gave them judges until Samuel the prophet.
I quoted the NRSV previously, but some translations change the verse to avoid perceived difficulty. Here are translations of Act 13:20 that do not modify God's word:

King James Bible
And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.

New King James Version
“After that He gave them judges for about four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For four hundred fifty years he gave them Judges until Samuel The Prophet.

Young's Literal Translation
'And after these things, about four hundred and fifty years, He gave judges -- till Samuel the prophet;

Conclusion:

If David began to reign in 1022, according to your calculation, and we add 40 years for Saul + 450 years for judges, and 40 years for desert wandering = 1552 BC. This takes us back to the date of the expulsion of the Hyksos.

Moreover, as I mentioned in post #26, Pharaoh Thutmoses III started his military campaign in Canaan in 1457 BC. Were the Israelites involved in the campaign? Scholars have suggested that the Habiru were mercenaries.

Egypt ruled Canaan from 1457 to approximately 1207 BC. Any entry into Canaan between these dates would be like going from Egypt to Egypt!!!


BTW, where do you get that God left the temple in 592 BC?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

EclipseEventSigns

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2022
448
85
Western Canada
✟31,781.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I already showed in great and painstaking detail that there is ABSOLUTELY no difficulty with the numbers in the text. None. I don't know where you get the idea that something has been modified in God's word. There hasn't.

Can easily verify this in the Greek. I'm wondering if you have done this.

Greek Interlinear Layout for Acts 13:20 (TR • KJV)
Greek Interlinear Layout for Acts 13:19-20 (MGNT • NASB95)
In both these Greek versions, the phrase "after these" is used. This connects the 450 years with all the previous events that Paul had listed. The Greek word used is plural. Not singular. So it could not be referring to the single event of giving the judges.

In the Aramaic Peshitta (which is probably the original language Paul spoke and Luke wrote), there is no connecting "and" for verse 20. The "and" is the usual separator used to begin a new thought. Therefore, the 450 years is still connected with the previous verse 19. This is where the Greek version had to insert the concept of "after these" for proper Greek grammar.

http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/analyz...9&source=ubs&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%
http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/analyz...0&source=ubs&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%

So as you can see, the statement you made about God's Word being changed is not true.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

EclipseEventSigns

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2022
448
85
Western Canada
✟31,781.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The discussion about the 450 years in Acts 13 has given me material for a third video in my series on the actual date of the Exodus from Egypt. It provides additional evidence that the year was in fact 1457 BC.


presentation_Exodus_Part3.jpg


Here is that video:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SuperCow

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 14, 2018
587
275
57
Leonardtown, MD
✟197,175.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I need some help here! Does anybody have knowledge of the Bible’s timeline of Exodus and Egyptian chronology? The dates Egyptologists give don’t line up with the Bible. Is the Bible wrong or were the Egyptians wrong and please give the reasons why or links to those reasons.
I have also researched much of this extensively, using several alternative sources that contradict much of the traditional narrative. Getting into the weeds of why Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 or 587 BC, or David's reign beginning in 1022 or 1010 BC is either going to drive you crazy if you're not seriously into ancient history, or if you are it will lead you into several years of your own research to come up with probably another timeline. I have my own spreadsheets and charts as well.

The problem I see with a many researchers (including a couple in this thread) is that you cannot line up traditional Egyptology with traditional Christian chronology. Therefore if you line up the literal Biblical reading and come up with Thutmose III or Ramesses II or Ahmose I using logical and mostly legitimate sources, you then have to contend with the fact that the rest of Egyptian history takes you back 1000 years before the flood. (Or about 700-800 if you only take the dynastic period) So historians will either push the Bible is legendary or incomplete path, or theologians that the Egyptian historical narrative is wrong path. (Or some combination of the two) Note also that I am for the moment ignoring the 3 million year old Lucy or Australopithecus fossil remains believed to be the origin of man.

If you match the order of the Bible with the order of history, you can match up the periods much better if you aren't trying to align every date to the year. Most historians start with a known event and use relative references to move backwards. If you start from Creation and move forward and match clues from the Bible to those from anthropology a different picture emerges.

Stone Age (3.4 million years ago) = Antediluvian Age (4000 BC or 5500 BC (MAS vs. LXX))
- How are you going to reconcile 3 million years? You can't, but read up on how they time the Paleolithic/Mesolithic/Neolithic ages, and you see it's based on cultural and tool advancements, not on dates. (Also try to find an article from Raul Lopez in the journal of creation from 12/1998 to reconcile the extreme reign lengths on the Sumerian king lists for kings before the flood.)

Early Bronze Age = Babel/Nimrod = Sumerian/Mesopotamian empire
- You can't get agreement on the origin of languages, but you can find plenty of archaeological studies on ziggurats and other structures of this period. You can also find historical evidence for a most of the cultures and cities mentioned, and plenty of speculation on ones that aren't confirmed. Egypt (the Greek form of Mizraim) is the patriarch of Egypt and the grandson of Noah. He was probably born within a few years of the flood. Egypt cannot exist before this point. (Except as Stone Age prehistory)

Kudur-lagamar (king of Elam) = Chedorlaomer (encountered by Abraham)
- Look for information on the Spartoli tablets

Abraham in Egypt
- Only about 360 years after the flood. (Arpachshad lived 438 years, so Mizraim could still be alive as well, though if he was Menes, he was killed by a Hippopotamus according to Egyptian lore.) A widely discredited Jewish book (probably Midrash) called Jasher claims the king was Osiris, son of Anom (possibly Anamim from Genesis 10:13). Ancient Egyptians from a period encompassing at least from the 11th to the 26th dynasty believed that the tomb of Djer (3rd king of the first dynasty) was that of Osiris. (Either the natives were wrong, or the two kings are one and the same by different names)

Joseph in Egypt
- Some equate Joseph to Imhotep of the 3rd dynasty; however, this is unlikely due to what is known about his religious beliefs. (Not for the timeline; however, which fits very well.) A better candidate is Ptah-hotep who was vizier in the 5th dynasty's reign of Djedkare Isesi, and his son Unas. He created a papyrus scroll called "The Maxims of Ptah-hotep", for which translations are readily available online, and are much more like what you would expect to be written by the Biblical Joseph.

Moses in Egypt
- Moses was an adopted prince in Egypt, but had to flee to Midian after he killed a slavemaster mistreating an Israelite. God called him back after that king died. (Exodus 4:19) He was Midian 40 years, so it must be a Pharaoh who ruled 40 years or longer. The king who succeeds him only rules a short time after being confronted by Moses, and afterwards Egypt as a power is decimated by the aftermath of the 10 plagues. This leaves only:

1.) 6th dynasty - Pepi II (oppression) / Merenre II (exodus) / 1st Intermediate Period
2.) 12th dynasty - Amenemhat III (oppression) / Amenemhad IV (exodus) / 2nd Intermediate Period
3.) 15th dynasty - Apophis (oppression) / Khamudi (exodus) / End of Hyksos dynasty

#3 works best when counting the chronology backwards from the Babylon conquest, but you need to read the Judges in literal sequence, which commentators don't like to do, because it is 100 years longer than 1 Kings 6:1. #1 works best when counting forward from the Genesis flood, but for this to work, you need two dynasties to be ruling in parallel with the other four, one ruling from lower Egypt and one from Upper Egypt.

But since we start with an 800 year discrepancy, I think both of these tweaks are justified. Still, a couple of others are required to fill the gap. There are two books, one by Peter James "Centuries of Darkness", and the other by David Rohl "Pharaohs and Kings: A Biblical Quest". Both demonstrate convincingly that the Third Intermediate period in Egypt had competing dynasties and should be shortened by about 250 years.

Another necessary adjustment is that the first and second intermediate period were one and the same. This was first proposed by Donovan Courville in "The Exodus Problem and its Ramifications". The justification is lengthy, but generally speaking, the 5th and 6th dynasty in almost every respect is like the 11th and 12th dynasty. The 7th - 10th dynasty is very chaotic and very little is known about it. This is very much like the 13th dynasty. To believe conventional history, the Egyptian empire rose to be the most powerful nation on earth with pyramids and monuments everywhere to their greatness, descended into chaos, rose again and started building pyramids again, descended into chaos again and was conquered with little resistance by Asian invaders. (Note that Psalms 105:30 refers to Egyptian kings in the plural)

Note that for four hundred years after the Exodus in the Bible, the Egyptians are never mentioned except for religious nostalgia. That absence is not going to happen in the 18th or 19th dynasty.

Furthermore, if you move the exodus to the end of the early Bronze Age, then the conquest of Canaan, which was destroyed at this time makes sense as well, since the entire region changed from a collection of powerful city-states to farming communities which would be historically unique without a conquest.

Then the middle Bronze Age corresponds to the judges period, and in Egypt the Hyksos period.

The Late Bronze Age corresponds to the early monarchy including Solomon's kingdom. Egypt is on the rise as well, but is initially allied with Solomon (1 Kings 3:1), possibly Thutmose I (Courville) or Haremheb (Rohl). Then a later Pharaoh (Shishak in the Bible) instigates a civil war in Israel (when it splits from Judah) and later sacks Jerusalem. Egypt is on the rise, and Israel/Judah begin a punctuated decline.

The rest of the Israel/Egypt correlations are not controversial:

Osorkon IV (2 Kings 17:4 - King So)
Taharqa (2 Kings 19:9 - King Tirhakah, King of Ethiopia - Egypt's 25th dynasty)
Necho II (2 Kings 23:29-35 - Pharoah Necho)
Apries (Jeremiah 44:30 - Pharoah Hophra)

So I believe you can line up Egypt with the Bible, but it is difficult and whatever you come up with is going to be a minority argument, simply because of the poor assumptions that have prevailed for the last 150 years.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Furthermore, if you move the exodus to the end of the early Bronze Age, then the conquest of Canaan, which was destroyed at this time makes sense as well, since the entire region changed from a collection of powerful city-states to farming communities which would be historically unique without a conquest. Then the middle Bronze Age corresponds to the judges period, and in Egypt the Hyksos period. The Late Bronze Age corresponds to the early monarchy including Solomon's kingdom.
What do you make of the frequent mention of "iron" in the books of Lev, Num, Deu, Jos, Jud, and 1Sa? And what do you make of mentioning the Philistines who did not arrive in Canaan until the Iron Age?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SuperCow

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 14, 2018
587
275
57
Leonardtown, MD
✟197,175.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What do you make of the frequent mention of "iron" in the books of Lev, Num, Deu, Jos, Jud, and 1Sa? And what do you make of mentioning the Philistines who did not arrive in Canaan until the Iron Age?
The ages are named after the most commonly available and utilized element for basic tools, weapons and parts. It's not like everyone stopped using bronze one day and started using iron the next. As people developed technologies to extract and smelt different metals, it becomes cheaper to use the metals. I just did a quick scan on biblegateway for iron and it comes up 24 times before 1 Kings. (Where I think it should not be controversial anymore for iron to be readily available) In the same region of the Bible, bronze is mentioned 55 times.

Two scriptures answer this to some degree:

Deuteronomy 8:9 (talking about the promised land - "a land where bread will not be scarce and you will lack nothing; a land where the rocks are iron and you can dig copper out of the hills."

and Job 28:2 (the entire chapter is interesting for its description of metal use) - "iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."

Iron is indeed available, but is used like a stone age metal, whereas copper can be melted and reshaped. Job could easily have been written back in Abraham's time, so it could be hundreds of years earlier than Moses, and it appears that Egypt had the technology to smelt iron, or at least that's what the metaphor implies in Deuteronomy 4:20, but it is definitely not as widespread as copper and bronze, which was used for precision and ornamental reasons as utensils and religious artifacts. (Along with gold which is even easier to reshape)

If I take your position to mean that the first mention in the Bible for iron is the start of the iron age, then it is first mentioned in the Bible being forged in Genesis 4:22, before the flood. (And in my timeline the late stone age) Of course the flood potentially wiping out millions of people and leaving 8 could be kind of a great reset, but I suspect some of these tools were used by Noah, building the ark; however big or small you believe the flood to have been.

Onto the Philistines, they are first mentioned in Genesis 10:14, the patriarch being the great-grandson of Noah, and closely related to the Egyptians. I have not researched the migration habits of the ancient Philistines, but Abraham visited them after he had settled in Canaan (Genesis 21:34), as did Isaac (Genesis 26:1). So if they did not arrive in Canaan until the Iron age as you suggest, then they weren't that far away. If you put Abraham in the Iron Age, then you might as well throw away the entire book of Genesis in my opinion.
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Furthermore, if you move the exodus to the end of the early Bronze Age, then the conquest of Canaan, which was destroyed at this time makes sense as well, since the entire region changed from a collection of powerful city-states to farming communities which would be historically unique without a conquest. Then the middle Bronze Age corresponds to the judges period, and in Egypt the Hyksos period.
You said that at the end of the EBA Canaan was destroyed and in the MBA the entire region changed from a collection of powerful city-states to farming communities. But the destruction you mentioned actually took place at the end of the MBA and the entire region changed in the LBA:

"The Middle Bronze Age was a period of great wealth and strong self-government of individual city-states. The aristocratic local rulers embellished their cities with large scale public buildings, temples and palaces. Orthogonal town planning was in effect, with paved streets at right angles. Cities were surrounded by huge fortifications, with ramparts built to defend against the battering rams of enemies. The chariot was used in battle at this time. Despite their great defenses, many of the cities in Canaan were destroyed in the turmoil following the Egyptian expulsion of the Hyksos in the mid-16th century BCE. This event led to the collapse of the Middle Bronze Age social system in Canaan."



I agree with your assessment that poorer conditions are consistent w/ the Judges' period. But these more impoverished conditions were in the LBA rather than the prosperous MBA. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob likely lived in Canaan during the MBA. The destruction at the end of the MBA was likely related to the Minoan Eruption as well as the return of the Hyksos to Canaan.


The ages are named after the most commonly available and utilized element for basic tools, weapons and parts. It's not like everyone stopped using bronze one day and started using iron the next. As people developed technologies to extract and smelt different metals, it becomes cheaper to use the metals.
This is true to an extent. But when you read that chariots of iron were used, you have to concede that the battle took place in the Iron Age: Jos 17:16, 18; Jud 1:19; 4:3, 13. Clearly, it was not used like a stone age metal.

Abraham visited them after he had settled in Canaan (Genesis 21:34), as did Isaac (Genesis 26:1). So if they did not arrive in Canaan until the Iron age as you suggest, then they weren't that far away. If you put Abraham in the Iron Age, then you might as well throw away the entire book of Genesis in my opinion.
It is conceivable that Philistines individuals, being sea-people, lived in Canaan before their settlement there in the Iron Age. but when we read about their five city-states being governed by seranim, we can be certain that they had already established their Pentapolis consisting of Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, Gath, and Gaza.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SuperCow

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 14, 2018
587
275
57
Leonardtown, MD
✟197,175.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You said that at the end of the EBA Canaan was destroyed and in the MBA the entire region changed from a collection of powerful city-states to farming communities. But the destruction you mentioned actually took place at the end of the MBA and the entire region changed in the LBA:

"The Middle Bronze Age was a period of great wealth and strong self-government of individual city-states. The aristocratic local rulers embellished their cities with large scale public buildings, temples and palaces. Orthogonal town planning was in effect, with paved streets at right angles. Cities were surrounded by huge fortifications, with ramparts built to defend against the battering rams of enemies. The chariot was used in battle at this time. Despite their great defenses, many of the cities in Canaan were destroyed in the turmoil following the Egyptian expulsion of the Hyksos in the mid-16th century BCE. This event led to the collapse of the Middle Bronze Age social system in Canaan."



That's one site. Another one gives this timeline:

The Bronze Age in the Near East is divided into three main periods (the dates are very approximate):
EBA - Early Bronze Age (c.3500-2000 BC)
MBA - Middle Bronze Age (c.2000-1600 BC)
LBA - Late Bronze Age (c.1600-1200 BC)
Each main period can be divided into shorter subcategories such as EB I, EB II, MB IIa etc.

Bronze Age.

I'm sure I can find half a dozen other sites with half a dozen other timelines. The Internet is very fluid this way. That's not to say yours is wrong and mine is right, just that in general there is no absolute consensus.

Here's a quote from Ernest Wright (not sure of his credentials beyond being a noted archaeologist):

"“One of the most striking facts about the Early Bronze Age civilization is its destruction, one so violent that scarcely a vestige of it survived. We do not know when the event took place; we only know that there is not an early Bronze Age city excavated or explored in all Palestine which does not have a gap in its occupation between Early bronze Age 3 and the Middle Bronze Age. To date this gap, we know that it must approximately contemporary with a similar period in Egypt called the First Intermediate period between dynasties 6 and 11 (Ca. 2200 and 2100 B.C.”

Some other quotes here. The site is not religious and does not attribute the catastrophe to Israel in any way:

The Catastrophic End of the Early Bronze Age - part - Ancient History

This is entirely consistent with the idea that the 1st Intermediate period (exodus plagues) followed 40 years later by near total destruction of Canaan by Israel who would not leave much of an archaeological footprint before this. Maybe I'm wrong. I've never personally been closer than Turkey (on a day trip from a cruise ship) to this region.

The quote you supplied from the end of the Middle Bronze Age could be referring to Solomon's kingdom which should have been the wealthiest and strongest period of any nation occupying that region in history. Its destruction at the end of the MBA can be attributed to Shishak raiding Jerusalem in Rehoboam's time and the subsequent civil war with the 10 tribes of Israel, which degraded significantly after that. And Judah had some good and bad times, but never re-attained that stature either.

The late Bronze Age follows with the rise of Egypt under the its most powerful periods throughout the 18th and 19th dynasties with Pharaohs like Thutmose III, or Ramesses II. (One of them possibly being Shishak according to various alternative chronologists)

My premise entirely is that the order of archaeology is correct, but the timeline is wrong.

I agree with your assessment that poorer conditions are consistent w/ the Judges' period. But these poorer conditions were in the LBA rather than the prosperous MBA. It is likely that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob lived in Canaan during the MBA. The destruction at the end of the MBA was likely related to the Minoan Eruption and this could have been the reason for the famine that drove Jacob and his clan to Egypt.


Your position here is entirely consistent with many authors and researchers about these time periods. I just think it leads to irreconcilable problems when relating it to scripture.

This is true to an extent. But when you read that chariots of iron were used, you have to concede that the battle took place in the Iron Age: Jos 17:16, 18; Jud 1:19; 4:3, 13. Clearly, it was not used like a stone age metal.

I concede that iron was available, but probably very expensive to procure and forge, which is why bronze is still mentioned far more in those time periods.

It is conceivable that Philistines individuals, being sea-people, lived in Canaan before their settlement there in the Iron Age. but when we read about their five city-states being governed by seranim, we can be certain that they had already established their Pentapolis consisting of Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, Gath, and Gaza.


Philistines being the sea peoples are speculative. Scripture says they were once part of the Egyptian early clans.
 
Upvote 0

EclipseEventSigns

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2022
448
85
Western Canada
✟31,781.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That's one site. Another one gives this timeline:

The Bronze Age in the Near East is divided into three main periods (the dates are very approximate):
EBA - Early Bronze Age (c.3500-2000 BC)
MBA - Middle Bronze Age (c.2000-1600 BC)
LBA - Late Bronze Age (c.1600-1200 BC)
Each main period can be divided into shorter subcategories such as EB I, EB II, MB IIa etc.

Bronze Age.

I'm sure I can find half a dozen other sites with half a dozen other timelines. The Internet is very fluid this way. That's not to say yours is wrong and mine is right, just that in general there is no absolute consensus.

Here's a quote from Ernest Wright (not sure of his credentials beyond being a noted archaeologist):

"“One of the most striking facts about the Early Bronze Age civilization is its destruction, one so violent that scarcely a vestige of it survived. We do not know when the event took place; we only know that there is not an early Bronze Age city excavated or explored in all Palestine which does not have a gap in its occupation between Early bronze Age 3 and the Middle Bronze Age. To date this gap, we know that it must approximately contemporary with a similar period in Egypt called the First Intermediate period between dynasties 6 and 11 (Ca. 2200 and 2100 B.C.”

Some other quotes here. The site is not religious and does not attribute the catastrophe to Israel in any way:

The Catastrophic End of the Early Bronze Age - part - Ancient History

This is entirely consistent with the idea that the 1st Intermediate period (exodus plagues) followed 40 years later by near total destruction of Canaan by Israel who would not leave much of an archaeological footprint before this. Maybe I'm wrong. I've never personally been closer than Turkey (on a day trip from a cruise ship) to this region.

The quote you supplied from the end of the Middle Bronze Age could be referring to Solomon's kingdom which should have been the wealthiest and strongest period of any nation occupying that region in history. Its destruction at the end of the MBA can be attributed to Shishak raiding Jerusalem in Rehoboam's time and the subsequent civil war with the 10 tribes of Israel, which degraded significantly after that. And Judah had some good and bad times, but never re-attained that stature either.

The late Bronze Age follows with the rise of Egypt under the its most powerful periods throughout the 18th and 19th dynasties with Pharaohs like Thutmose III, or Ramesses II. (One of them possibly being Shishak according to various alternative chronologists)

My premise entirely is that the order of archaeology is correct, but the timeline is wrong.



Your position here is entirely consistent with many authors and researchers about these time periods. I just think it leads to irreconcilable problems when relating it to scripture.



I concede that iron was available, but probably very expensive to procure and forge, which is why bronze is still mentioned far more in those time periods.



Philistines being the sea peoples are speculative. Scripture says they were once part of the Egyptian early clans.
Unfortunately you can NOT rely on secular archaeological dates as reliable for anything. They are only best guesses from people putting together a house of cards. Everything is just based on supposed synchronisms between various cultures. David Rohl has shown how unreliable and wobbly the "industry" of modern archaeology is. Choosing to ignore Biblical information as secondary to supposed modern experts only leads to a wild goose chase of putting square pegs into round holes.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Another one gives this timeline:

The Bronze Age in the Near East is divided into three main periods (the dates are very approximate):
EBA - Early Bronze Age (c.3500-2000 BC)
MBA - Middle Bronze Age (c.2000-1600 BC)
LBA - Late Bronze Age (c.1600-1200 BC)
Each main period can be divided into shorter subcategories such as EB I, EB II, MB IIa etc.
This is consistent with my previous message. I did not write anything contradictory to this view. Why would you think otherwise?

Here's a quote from Ernest Wright (not sure of his credentials beyond being a noted archaeologist): "“One of the most striking facts about the Early Bronze Age civilization is its destruction, one so violent that scarcely a vestige of it survived. We do not know when the event took place; we only know that there is not an early Bronze Age city excavated or explored in all Palestine which does not have a gap in its occupation between Early bronze Age 3 and the Middle Bronze Age. To date this gap, we know that it must approximately contemporary with a similar period in Egypt called the First Intermediate period between dynasties 6 and 11 (Ca. 2200 and 2100 B.C.” Some other quotes here. The site is not religious and does not attribute the catastrophe to Israel in any way:
Biblical chronology gives a date around 1921 BC for Abraham's entry into Canaan. This would be in the MBA. So, the quotation above is not relevant to our discussion. The EBA is too early for Abraham's migration. Yes, there was destruction at the end of the EBA. But why should we be concerned with the EBA and the destruction that followed it? The biblical chronology suggests a date around 2348 BC for the Flood, which would be near the end of the EBA. But we are not discussing the Flood here.

This is entirely consistent with the idea that the 1st Intermediate period (exodus plagues) followed 40 years later by near total destruction of Canaan by Israel who would not leave much of an archaeological footprint before this.
Destruction took place not only at the end of the EBA but also at the end of the MBA. In my previous message, I mentioned the Minoan Eruption. Could the Exodus plagues have been correlated with the Minoan Eruption?

I've never personally been closer than Turkey (on a day trip from a cruise ship) to this region.
:) . Very nice. I want to go on a trip in late Summer or early Fall. This sounds like a great idea.

The quote you supplied from the end of the Middle Bronze Age could be referring to Solomon's kingdom which should have been the wealthiest and strongest period of any nation occupying that region in history. Its destruction at the end of the MBA can be attributed to Shishak raiding Jerusalem in Rehoboam's time and the subsequent civil war with the 10 tribes of Israel, which degraded significantly after that.
Even Ussher's chronology, which tends to have earlier dates than other chronologies, has David's accession in 1048 BC. This is in the Iron Age, for sure. There is no denying that the Philistine Pentapolis was established in David's time. BTW, this is the same chronology I used for the dates of the Flood and Abraham's migration mentioned above. Shishak ruled between 945 and 924 BC.

Your position here is entirely consistent with many authors and researchers about these time periods. I just think it leads to irreconcilable problems when relating it to scripture.
I don't have a fixed theory to defend. I seek philia sophia. Let's investigate the irreconcilable problems that may arise.

Philistines being the sea peoples are speculative. Scripture says they were once part of the Egyptian early clans.
In some sense, the Philistines came from Egypt:

"In the 12th century B.C.E., during the reign of Ramesses III, a confederation of tribes from the “islands” of the “northern countries” attacked Egypt—several times, both on sea and land. . . . Egypt defeated the confederation, as recorded on one of the temple walls at Medinet Habu. . . . After being defeated, some of these tribes settled on the southern coast of Canaan—in what would become the land of the Philistines."

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0