Excluding Farmer's Market Vendor for Refusing to Host Same-Sex Weddings

[Hank77]

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The City of East Lansing requires vendors for its Farmer's Market to comply with the City's public policy against discrimination. Country Mill Farms offers to rent a portion of its property [which is not connected with the Farmer's Market] for weddings. Country Mill Farms, however, will not rent the property for same-sex weddings...
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The court noted that "Defendant's 2017 decision to deny Plaintiffs' application substantially burdened Plaintiffs' free exercise of religion":
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The court acknowledged that "neutral and generally applicable" policies don't violate the Free Exercise Clause, but held that the City's policy wasn't neutral and generally applicable because it contained discretionary exemptions:
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The court also concluded that the policy wasn't neutral or generally applicable because it included exemptions for certain secular reasons:

Excluding Farmer's Market Vendor for Refusing to Host Same-Sex Weddings on Its Land Violates Free Exercise Clause

So holds a federal court.

reason.com

I believe that more and more the courts are once again recognizing that religious rights are just as important as other life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness rights of living free. They are recognizing that religious liberty is just as important to some people as the freedom to follow no religion is to others. The answer is not to force Christians to live as non-Christians or the other way around.

 

[FireDragon76]

The court didn't rule in favor of "religious freedom". They ruled on a technicality.

 

[Hank77]

The court didn't rule in favor of "religious freedom". They ruled on a technicality.

Yes, they seem to be favoring technicalities more and more lately.

 

[iluvatar5150]

The court didn't rule in favor of "religious freedom". They ruled on a technicality.

idk if I'd call it a technicality - it seems more substantive to me than that. Basically, the current application of their rules is too subjective to allow them to bar the Farm in this way, but if they reworked their rules to be more consistent and objective, they'd be okay.

Yes, they seem to be favoring technicalities more and more lately.

There's no way to interpret this as being friendly to the Farm. The City is allowed to do what they were doing, provided they jump through the proper hoops, which they didn't do.

 

[Hank77]

Basically, the current application of their rules is too subjective to allow them to bar the Farm in this way, but if they reworked their rules to be more consistent and objective, they'd be okay.

Two of the clips that I took from the article for the OP point out that they were not neutral.

Chapter 22 of the East Lansing City Code, incorporated into the Vendor Guidelines under paragraph 6(m), is not generally applicable because it permits secular conduct through exemptions while prohibiting the same conduct motivated by religious beliefs….

I gave an opinion in the OP. I don't base that opinion on only this one outcome. I am seeing more and more outcomes around the country giving religious beliefs more weight in court decisions.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Two of the clips that I took from the article for the OP point out that they were not neutral.

Chapter 22 of the East Lansing City Code, incorporated into the Vendor Guidelines under paragraph 6(m), is not generally applicable because it permits secular conduct through exemptions while prohibiting the same conduct motivated by religious beliefs….

I gave an opinion in the OP. I don't base that opinion on only this one outcome. I am seeing more and more outcomes around the country giving religious beliefs more weight in court decisions.

That doesn't mean that the court sided in favor of "religious liberty" or "religious beliefs." What it means is that the city code is too subjective and inconsistent, that it permits some forms of non-compliance for secular reasons while prohibiting them for religious reasons. That's not okay. However, if the city got rid of the secularly-based allowances, they'd be fine.

 

[FireDragon76]

I haven't seen any evidence that there has been a widespread movement to substantially broaden the construction of freedom of religion, and I doubt there will be. Most judges aren't aligned with an ideology where that would make any sense, especially given that most of the American public wouldn't share that perspective, either.

 

[Hank77]

That doesn't mean that the court sided in favor of "religious liberty" or "religious beliefs." What it means is that the city code is too subjective and inconsistent, that it permits some forms of non-compliance for secular reasons while prohibiting them for religious reasons. That's not okay. However, if the city got rid of the secularly-based allowances, they'd be fine.

Wow, I understand what you said in your other post and I understand what the article said.
I have an opinion about what I see happening and you don't agree, it's that simple.
@FireDragon76 addressed my opinion and gave his argument in post #7.

 

[RileyG]

SMH....they have a right to refuse service to anyone. Period.

 

[stevil]

...
The City of East Lansing requires vendors for its Farmer's Market to comply with the City's public policy against discrimination. Country Mill Farms offers to rent a portion of its property [which is not connected with the Farmer's Market] for weddings. Country Mill Farms, however, will not rent the property for same-sex weddings...

First marriages, then cakes, then Bed and Breakfast, then wedding web sites, now venues.

Why are some Christians so hell bent on attacking and discriminating on gays?
Learn to be nice, learn to be kind, stop hating.

 

[RileyG]

First marriages, then cakes, then Bed and Breakfast, then wedding web sites, now venues.

Why are some Christians so hell bent on attacking and discriminating on gays?
Learn to be nice, learn to be kind, stop hating.

There is no hate. Not agreeing with an event or a "marriage" is not hate. People have a right to follow their conscience as they see fit. Period. Being "nice" won't get someone's salvation.

 

[iluvatar5150]

There is no hate. Not agreeing with an event or a "marriage" is not hate. People have a right to follow their conscience as they see fit. Period. Being "nice" won't get someone's salvation.

There absolutely is hate. Describing trans people as "groomers" is hate. The derision and contempt directed towards trans people, including by long-time members and staff of this board, is hateful.

 

[shadowhunter]

First marriages, then cakes, then Bed and Breakfast, then wedding web sites, now venues.

Why are some Christians so hell bent on attacking and discriminating on gays?
Learn to be nice, learn to be kind, stop hating.

The confusion lies with the church which no longer teaches the cross through symbols.

Have you considered that Jesus said not to take vows, yet in marriage they take a vow? It is because originally, they were not taking a vow. They were on stage playing the role of Christ and the church. It was preaching the cross through symbols. Christ gave himself for his bride, the church, and his bride obeys and learns from Christ.

A male-male marriage declares men to be equal to God.
A female-female marriage signified that Christ was just a man.

I am happy to perform gay weddings: We are gathered here together to celebrate that these two are in complete rebellion against God according to the ancient symbols of marriage. A proper marriage declares that Christ died for the church who is now bound to him in one flesh. They are fruitful by the fruit of the Spirit and multiplying by teaching. This is at least the second time they have preached the cross through symbols, the first being their baptisms where they declared that they have submitted to the Word of God represented by water and put to death their old natures, and are now living in a new life in the Spirit, having been raised into the air. These have chosen to declare good and evil for themselves, making themselves to be false gods. Let's have cake.

Asking a business to do things that they oppose is asking them to paint a pentagram on their door. Marriage is not just a churchy sentimentality. It is the preaching of the cross, which is the heart of the church.

But it is not hate. When you ask me what is 2+2, I cannot say 5. The haters want to force us to say things that are not true. I will not come into your temple and force you to have a Christian marriage. Nor will I ask that you put symbols of my faith in your business. It is called simple courtesy.

 

[shadowhunter]

There absolutely is hate. Describing trans people as "groomers" is hate. The derision and contempt directed towards trans people, including by long-time members and staff of this board, is hateful.

OK. I'm stupid. Not hateful. Please explain to me how trans people reproduce if not by grooming. oh.. and I have never called a trans-person a groomer. Just asking for a friend.

 

[stevil]

A male-male marriage declares men to be equal to God.
A female-female marriage signified that Christ was just a man.

Where did you get this from? Did you just make that up? Tsk, tsk.

I am happy to perform gay weddings:

Are you a celebrant?

We are gathered here together to celebrate that these two are in complete rebellion against God...

Oh boy.
Perhaps their marriage has more to do with love and nothing to do with your god.

 

[iluvatar5150]

OK. I'm stupid. Not hateful. Please explain to me how trans people reproduce if not by grooming.

 

[Hank77]

First marriages, then cakes, then Bed and Breakfast, then wedding web sites, now venues.

Why are some Christians so hell bent on attacking and discriminating on gays?
Learn to be nice, learn to be kind, stop hating.

What's that about a Bed and Breakfast?

 

[stevil]

There is no hate. Not agreeing with an event or a "marriage" is not hate. People have a right to follow their conscience as they see fit. Period. Being "nice" won't get someone's salvation.

People, especially people who don't believe in your religion, don't want salvation, and don't want your blessing or approval.
But if you are offering a service to the general public, they might want to pay you for that service.

 

[stevil]

What's that about a Bed and Breakfast?

Do an internet search "christians deny gays bed and breakfast"

 

[shadowhunter]

Where did you get this from? Did you just make that up? Tsk, tsk.

Are you a celebrant?

Oh boy.
Perhaps their marriage has more to do with love and nothing to do with your god.

And that is the point. Don't force your beliefs upon me or my church. Go get married elsewhere. It is not just a sentimental ceremony because people love each other. It is a doctrinal statement. Your ignorance of early Christian symbols is not my problem. Paul said when he spoke of marriage he spoke of Christ and the church. Christ obtained his bride through the cross, which Adam symbolizes from obtaining his bride through sleep. Adam is the express image of God. The church is made to be like him.

The difference between a scoffer and a legitimate questioner is the scoffer doesn't want an answer, or they would ask rather than accuse.