Example: Affirming the Sabbath Commandment while denying its detail --

Gary K · Jan 1, 2024

Leaf473 said:
Please give an example, if you wish, of a law that is left out when a person considers all of the commandments.

For example, all the laws concerning the rites of the sacrificial system.

daq · Jan 1, 2024

Gary K said:
For example, all the laws concerning the rites of the sacrificial system.

Mark 9:43-50 quotes from Isaiah 66:24, one of the SDA favorite passages to quote from, (Isa 66:22-24), and yet also refers the hearer and reader back to Leviticus 2:13, the only place wherein the commandment for the salting of oblations and sacrifices may be found in the Torah. This has been explained in detail quite a few times.

daq · Jan 2, 2024

myst33 said:
Not sure what you mean by overthrow or overrule. The Mosaic Law was till Christ (it was its purpose) and as such, is not for us (who live after Christ) anymore.

"Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law...
So the law was our guardian until Christ came...
Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."
Gal 3:23-25

Already refuted a number of times, again, get a better translation.

myst33 said:
"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way
of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."
R 7:6

Another terrible translation.

Our freedom or liberty in Meshiah is the new Way of understanding and walking in the Torah-Word-Instruction of the Father, which is the one and only Way that is pleasing to the Father, proven by the fact that Meshiah was raised from the dead: and those who actually believe that he was indeed raised from the dead will do what he teaches and walk in his Testimony which is Spirit. Those who understand the Torah-Word of the Father according to the flesh are no different than the Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes in the Gospel accounts, and cannot please the Father because it is not possible for the natural mind of the natural man to be subject to His holy and spiritual Torah-Word.

myst33 said:
"So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another"
R 7:4

So far just about all I have seen you do is cherry-pick one or two lines of scripture statements which are many times not even complete verses, (like this one from Rom 7:4 which is incomplete), and paste them into scripture lists. Do you not understand that when you go quote mining and take statements out of their contexts you are actually disallowing the Spirit and the Logos from speaking through the context by way of the reasoning within that context? People generally do such things, whether they realize it or not, so that they can insert their own spirit and logos into what is written, which goes hand-in-hand with cherry-picked one or two liners pasted into scripture walls: for they are essentially making up their own gospel and forcing the scripture to say what they want it to say from their own private interpretations. Yet nearly every time someone else comes along and investigates the contexts, surrounding the things that have been posted, the poster of the scripture wall or list is found to be in error. I have honestly already grown tired of trying answer all of your scripture lists full of one or two liners quoted from the extremely liberal thought-for-thought NIV Bible.

BobRyan · Jan 2, 2024

BobRyan said:

Is it true that in "all the Bible" the command "Honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 -- in your POV?

Leaf473 said:
No, there are other Commandments outside of the 10 that also have a promise that occur before the 10 are listed.

Exactly!!!
IN Eph 6:2 Paul is specifically singling out the TEN as applicable to NT Christians.

So then Christ affirms that it is not allowed to edit/set/aside the Commandment of God in Mark 7:7-13 where the TEN are most certainly included.

7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

========================================

Just at the very moment you "wished" to insert the idea that there is no such thing as singling out the TEN as included in the moral law of God applicable to all NT Christians (A point that all Christian denominations affirm) -- you then shoot your suggestion in the foot by admitting that this is exactly what Paul is doing in Eph 6:2.

A conclusion we have demonstrated repeatedly in our discussions Leaf and I thank you once again for setting that illustration up "again".

BobRyan · Jan 2, 2024

myst33 said:
Not sure what you mean by overthrow or overrule. The Mosaic Law was till Christ (it was its purpose) and as such, is not for us (who live after Christ) anymore.

"Do not take Gods name in vain" Ex 20:7 got "deleted at the cross"???

No scripture and no Christian denomination claim such a thing (As we probably all agree)

SabbathBlessings · Jan 2, 2024

myst33 said:
This is a logical fallacy. The Mosaic Law is not deleted, its fulfilled. Its purpose was to keep the nation of Israel prepared for the birth of Christ.

It does not mean that all good moral principles are now erased or something. Its still wrong to murder, to steal, to lie etc. It was wrong before the Mosaic Law, outside the Mosaic Law and also is wrong after the Mosaic Law.

However, many shadowy parts of the Mosaic Law do not continue for Christians. For example "eye for an eye", "you will not let a witch to live", "do not trim the sides of your head", "circumcise your boys" or "keep the Sabbath day".

Where there is no law there is no sin. Romans 4:15 Sin is the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7

The only reason we know thou shalt not murder, or lie, or steal is a sin is because God said so. This is God's righteousness Psa 119:172 and we do not get to pick and choose what we deem is right or wrong as that is depending on our own righteousness and not God's.

The apostles always gave glory to God on His commandments, as should we.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For He who said,

“Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

The He who said is God.

God both spoke and wrote His holy commandments, all glory goes to Him and we keep them through love and faith. 1 John 5:3 John 14:15, Exo 20:6 Rom 3:31 Rev 14:12

20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [a]bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor [b]serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting[c] the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

SabbathBlessings · Jan 2, 2024

myst33 said:
The verse is actually:
Where there is no law there is no transgression.
R 4:15 (NIV)

The word parábasis means transgression. The verse means that if there is no law, there is no transgression [of the law]. Which makes perfect sense.

Sin, of course, has existed before the Mosaic Law and exists after the Mosaic Law, too.

P.S. What Bible translation says "sin"? I cannot find any on biblehub.com. Was it just your personal edit of the Bible like that of BobRyan's in the post Example: Affirming the Sabbath Commandment while denying its detail --

Sin is transgression of the law 1 John 3:4

No law- no transgressions (sin)

SabbathBlessings · Jan 2, 2024

myst33 said:
Transgression is transgression. Do not change the Bible to fit your ideology.

Regarding 1 John, you know that the author uses "everyone" not in a technical sense, right?

"you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him." 1J 2:29 (NIV)
"everyone who sins breaks the law" 1J 3:4 (NIV)
"everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God" 1J 4:7 (NIV)
"everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" 1J 5:1 (NIV)
"Demetrius is well spoken of by everyone" 3J 12 (NIV)

Similarly with the authors's usage of "whoever", "anyone" etc.

So everyone doesn’t mean everyone and sin is the transgression of the law does doesn't mean that because you say so. I think I will stick with the scriptures.

SabbathBlessings · Jan 2, 2024

myst33 said:
Stick with the Scriptures, I will welcome it, because it will save time not needing to correct your misquotes.

"sin is the transgression of the law does doesn't mean that" is another misquote, its actually: "sin is lawlessness."

No misquote 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And what in your mind is the difference between sin is lawlessness or sin is transgression of the law.

trophy33 · Jan 2, 2024

SabbathBlessings said:
No misquote 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And what in your mind is the difference between sin is lawlessness or sin is transgression of the law.

KJV is an antiquated translation. They did not know quite a few of Greek rules on their foggy English island.

The difference is in the "the" article. John is not talking about any specific law, like the Mosaic Law. The part "of the law" is not in the Greek. There is actually also no word "transgression" in the Greek. Check it out and update your list of proof verses.

SabbathBlessings · Jan 2, 2024

myst33 said:
KJV is an antiquated translation. They did not know quite a few of Greek rules on their foggy English island.

The difference is in the "the" article. John is not talking about any specific law, like the Mosaic Law. The part "of the law" is not in the Greek. Check it out and update your list of proof verses.

So now the KJV is antiquated - There is a law that defines sin Paul shows us as does Jesus Romans 7:7, Mat 5:19-30 who I trust over man made interpretations. You also never answered the question, because there is no difference. Sin is breaking God’s law. Paul and Jesus point to the law that is sin when broken.

It’s impossible to reason with one who thinks their opinions are equal to scripture, so no point in continuing, so we will have to agree to disagree.

trophy33 · Jan 2, 2024

SabbathBlessings said:
So now the KJV is antiquated

Actually for a while already.

SabbathBlessings said:
- There is a law that defines sin Paul shows us as does Jesus Romans 7:7, Mat 5:19-30

Thats all fine, sin can be defined by a specific set of commandments, i.e. by some law, like the Mosaic law. Nothing against that. But to say that sin does not exist without such a legal proclaimed document is nonsense. Remember Cain?

SabbathBlessings said:
who I trust over man made interpretations.

Thats great, if true. But your usage of Scriptures is quite obviously influenced by the SDA websites you use and sometimes even with simply copy&paste. SDA authors are men, including the woman E. White.

SabbathBlessings said:
You also never answered the question, because there is no difference. Sin is breaking God’s law.

The word "never" is not used properly, here.

The difference is in the "the" article, as I said. Breaking God's law that is active and given to you, is sin. Not all sin is breaking a specific law, though.

SabbathBlessings said:
Paul and Jesus point to the law that is sin when broken.

Thats all fine, if you have been given a law to keep, its a sin to break it. But it does not mean you cannot sin in some other way, not mentioned in that law.

SabbathBlessings said:
It’s impossible to reason with one who thinks their opinions are equal to scripture

Actually, its possible, as I am reasoning with you for some time already, correcting your misquotes, antiquated translations and generally logical and rhetorical missteps.

BobRyan · Jan 2, 2024

daq said:
@BobRyan, the video in your opening post is set to begin playing at the 16:29 mark. Is that your intent? meaning you are only asking that we watch the video from that point to the end? That's what I did, but I just want to make sure I am not missing anything from before that point because I did not watch it from the beginning.

daq - Thanks for catching that --

I have updated the link so it will start from the beginning -- my intent is that people watch the entire video if at all possible. Though it is about 20 min.

BobRyan · Jan 2, 2024

myst33 said:
KJV is an antiquated translation. They did not know quite a few of Greek rules on their foggy English island.

fail.

Contemporary English Version
Everyone who sins breaks God's law, because sin is the same as breaking God's law

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law.

New International Version
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

New Living Translation
Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God.

Good News Translation
Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God's law, because sin is a breaking of the law.

If you had a "breaking God's Law is not lawlessness" text - that post above would have been a good time to post it. In the meantime simply disparaging one translation did not work all that well as noted above.

myst33 said:
The difference is in the "the" article. John is not talking about any specific law

His talking about God's Law.

"this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:4.
"the saints KEEP the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"Love Me - and KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15

no wonder John states it that way -- as we see in context - Ex 20

"Love me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6

BobRyan · Jan 2, 2024

SabbathBlessings said:
Sin is transgression of the law 1 John 3:4

No law- no transgressions (sin)

New International Version
because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

English Standard Version
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

Berean Standard Bible
because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Berean Literal Bible
For Law brings wrath; and where there is no Law, neither is transgression.

King James Bible
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

New King James Version
because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

New American Standard Bible
for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

Christian Standard Bible
because the law produces wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the law produces wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.

American Standard Version
for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For the law worketh wrath. For where there is no law, neither is there transgression.

English Revised Version
for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression.

.

International Standard Version
for the Law produces wrath. Now where there is no Law, neither can there be any violation of it.

Literal Standard Version
for the Law works wrath; for where law is not, neither [is] transgression.

Majority Standard Bible
because the law brings wrath. For where there is no law, there is no transgression.

New American Bible
For the law produces wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there violation.

NET Bible
For the law brings wrath, because where there is no law there is no transgression either.

New Revised Standard Version
For the law brings wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there violation.

New Heart English Bible
For the law works wrath, for where there is no law, neither is there disobedience.

Webster's Bible Translation
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Weymouth New Testament
For the Law inflicts punishment; but where no Law exists, there can be no violation of Law.

World English Bible
For the law produces wrath; for where there is no law, neither is there disobedience.

Young's Literal Translation
for the law doth work wrath; for where law is not, neither is transgression.

BobRyan · Jan 2, 2024

myst33 said:
SDA authors are men, including the woman E. White.

So also is the author of your post and mine.

Watch the video in the OP-- you may find some help there since that is not an SDA pastor.

SabbathBlessings · Jan 2, 2024

BobRyan said:
So also is the author of your post and mine.

Watch the video in the OP-- you may find some help there since that is not an SDA pastor.

I love seeing God’s promises in action. 11 years added exactly what was kept faithfully. I knew SDA’s lived longer but never thought to break it down the way the pastor did and he is not even SDA!

Leaf473 · Jan 2, 2024

Gary K said:
For example, all the laws concerning the rites of the sacrificial system.

OK... Are those laws Commandments? If so, and if they are left out, then how is the person considering all of the Commandments?

Gary K · Jan 2, 2024

Leaf473 said:
OK... Are those laws Commandments? If so, and if they are left out, then how is the person considering all of the Commandments?

Because you say the 10 commandments and ceremonial laws are all God's laws as if they were all written on stone by the finger of God.

Leaf473 · Jan 2, 2024

daq said:
Our freedom or liberty in Meshiah is the new Way of understanding and walking in the Torah-Word-Instruction of the Father...

Please expound on that new way of understanding and walking.

Example: Affirming the Sabbath Commandment while denying its detail --

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