Evolution's Brick Wall

[DogmaHunter]

The chosen Kinds for the ark must have been created and programmed by God to procreate all the varieties we see within that Kind today. So Noah took only pairs of each Kind. How ever many pairs that was, there was plenty of room.

When things stop making sense, just invoke unfalsifiable magic (aka god-dun-it) et voila.

So much more sensible then demonstrable and independently verifiable science ha?

And then when the magical flood waters were evaporated by even more magic, then mega hyper evolution sets in, at a rate thousands of times faster then natural evolution actually happens, to the point that it went so rapidly that we had some 10-ish new speciation events PER DAY (till today!), since in just a couple thousand years, it went from a "few thousand kinds" to millions of species.

Isn't it hilarious, that while fundamentalist like yourself are so hellbend on arguing against an evolutionary process that unfolds over millions of years, you actually require an evolutionary process that goes exponentially faster? To the point of being physically impossible even?

You should think about that.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I arrived at those numbers based on the number of kinds/genus of animals that are alive today.(not including those that are extinct).

If you don't actually know how such a vast number of animals could fit in such a small amount of space, well then welcome to the club. Glad we can agree on the unexplainable or unknowable nature of young earthers beliefs.

How an elehpant with a year's worth of rations might fit inside my bedroom closet and survive...is certainly beyond me.

What I don't get... I mean, if we get to invoke supernatural magic anyway, then why not go all the way and just claim that God used a supernatural shrink ray on all those animals, so that they could actually all fit in in Noah's pocket or something?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I still say that if the Flood account had not been in the Bible, the hypothesizing of such a world-wide cataclysmic event would be present today in scientific theorizing

It would not because there isn't a single scientific reason to hypothesize such a thing.

 

[DogmaHunter]

God's ways are not our ways. Anything, including a form of TARDIS booth, is possible with Him.

Cool.

You just abbandonned any and all rational reasoning.

This is your get-out-of-jail-free-card.
Whenever you encounter things you can't explain or which don't fit your biblical narrative: "god can do anything".

And then you wonder why we aren't impressed....

 

[DogmaHunter]

If you truly believe anything is possible with God, why do you question the TARDIS booth principle as a possible means for the numbers that have you in a quandary over the ark? I have no problem at all accepting some form of that idea, or any other as He chose to use it, was used to accommodate the Kinds on the ark.

And it gets worse........

Indeed, you have "no problem at all" accepting whatever seemingly invented explanation to "explain away" any and all difficulties that come with holding your fundamentalist beliefs.

You are perfectly fine with any ad hoc rationalisation to the point of simply invoking "magic".
As long as you get to stick to your a priori fundamentalist religious beliefs, you are fine it seems.

This is how you treat the evidence as well.
If it doesn't fit your narrative, you just invent something or make up some supernatural invocation and then pretend as if it is a valid objection to the evidence.

 

[xianghua]

You really don't understand what you're arguing against here.

if you say so.

 

[xianghua]

The chosen Kinds for the ark must have been created and programmed by God
.

about the ark species: (this calculation is from my other thread) we have empirical evidence that speciation may take about less then 100 years:

Rapid Evolution Changes Species in Real Time | DiscoverMagazine.com

Watching new species evolve in real time

so lets assume a tipical speciation event= 100 years.

one of the largest family on earth is the curculionidae which contain almost 100,000 species. so if we start with 2 species then after about one generation of a speciation event (100 years) we will get 4 different species. and after another generation of speciation we will get 8 and so on. so we only need about less then 20 generation of speciation to get more then 100,000 different species (2^20) . or about 2000 years.

 

[inquiring mind]

Ow, so you changed opinions?
You used to say that a "kind" was something that could interbreed.

"with derivatives referring to procreation and familial and tribal groups."

 

[inquiring mind]

It would not because there isn't a single scientific reason to hypothesize such a thing.

'No fossil evidence' didn't keep you from hypothesizing macro evolution.

 

[inquiring mind]

Cool.

You just abbandonned any and all rational reasoning.

This is your get-out-of-jail-free-card.
Whenever you encounter things you can't explain or which don't fit your biblical narrative: "god can do anything".

Yes, it is wonderful!

And then you wonder why we aren't impressed....

I don't wonder about that at all.

 

[inquiring mind]

This is how you treat the evidence as well.
If it doesn't fit your narrative, you just invent something

Well, when you find yourself in a game of 'connect-the-dots'...

 

[Heissonear]

When things stop making sense, just invoke unfalsifiable magic (aka god-dun-it) et voila.

So much more sensible then demonstrable and independently verifiable science ha?

And then when the magical flood waters were evaporated by even more magic, then mega hyper evolution sets in, at a rate thousands of times faster then natural evolution actually happens, to the point that it went so rapidly that we had some 10-ish new speciation events PER DAY (till today!), since in just a couple thousand years, it went from a "few thousand kinds" to millions of species.

Isn't it hilarious, that while fundamentalist like yourself are so hellbend on arguing against an evolutionary process that unfolds over millions of years, you actually require an evolutionary process that goes exponentially faster? To the point of being physically impossible even?

You should think about that.

Should I point out all the conjecture you state or will you reread and understand the conjecture you present.

Missing information required to make a true conclusion. Look for then.

The Bible states what we know. You and I may not know the how in some things. But there are some of us who have put our faith in a Mighty and Very Wise Creator. One capable to do what He states in the Bible.

Naturalism and all things through natural process without God needed does not fly. Naturalism is a false mental position in making conclusions of many things where God is involved.

 

[DogmaHunter]

"with derivatives referring to procreation and familial and tribal groups."

Funny how you never bothered to say such things when presented with the ring species challenge. When I presented that concept, you actually even denied that such species exist in reality. And that was pretty much the most I got out of you on that topic.

 

[DogmaHunter]

'No fossil evidence' didn't keep you from hypothesizing macro evolution.

There's mountains of fossil evidence for macro evolution. A tiny spec of which has been given in this ginormous thread.

Then there's also the many other independent lines of evidence like geographic distribution, comparative anatomy, the genetic record etc.

But hey, I guess if you deny it long enough, it will just go away?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yes, it is wonderful!

That's not exactly how I would describe blatant intellectual dishonesty, though

 

[DogmaHunter]

Should I point out all the conjecture you state or will you reread and understand the conjecture you present.

I say: point it out.

The Bible states what we know.

No. The bible just states. You then believe it.
"knowledge" is demonstrable. That's not what you are presenting here.

But there are some of us who have put our faith in a Mighty and Very Wise Creator. One capable to do what He states in the Bible.

Indeed. You require "faith". I don't. I have evidence.

Naturalism and all things through natural process without God needed does not fly.

Invoking supernatural magic ad hoc whenever the evidence doesn't match your a priori beliefs, doesn't fly either.

As for me, I just don't see the point of including unfalsifiable factors that can't be shown to have any manifestation or impact in processes whatsoever.

To me, invoking "god" to explain biological reality, is like invoking undetectable pink graviton fairies to explain gravity.

Naturalism is a false mental position in making conclusions of many things where God is involved.

If you wish to claim that your god is involved in anything - then demonstrate it and I will happily accept it.

If "faith" is required, then I'll just shrug my shoulders and walk away - just like you do when a Hindu makes faith-based claims about Shiva to you.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

When things stop making sense, just invoke unfalsifiable magic (aka god-dun-it) et voila.

So much more sensible then demonstrable and independently verifiable science ha?

And then when the magical flood waters were evaporated by even more magic, then mega hyper evolution sets in, at a rate thousands of times faster then natural evolution actually happens, to the point that it went so rapidly that we had some 10-ish new speciation events PER DAY (till today!), since in just a couple thousand years, it went from a "few thousand kinds" to millions of species.

Isn't it hilarious, that while fundamentalist like yourself are so hellbend on arguing against an evolutionary process that unfolds over millions of years, you actually require an evolutionary process that goes exponentially faster? To the point of being physically impossible even?

You should think about that.

What magic evaporation of water?????

Psalms 104:8 "The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them."

What hyper evolution?

I still see dogs has provided you with no insight..... I still see finches interbreeding and backcrossing and producing new variations seasonally has provided you with no insight.

Now place all the animals in one close proximity before spreading out, like the finches.... You know, like humans spread out from one central are and bred the current races......

But nothing gives you all insight because you currently ignore what we observe for fantasies.....

Most of your problem extends to your inability to classify things consistently due to your species problem that is self made.

 

[DogmaHunter]

What magic evaporation of water?????

The part where there was once water to cover the entire world, including the highest mountain tops. And then not.

Psalms 104:8 "The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them."

Ow okay. So, magical otherwise-cataclysmic sudden rise of mountains?
Mega hyper tectonic activity then?

So the Tibet Plateau.... what, that formed in like a week or so, according to your YECism?

What hyper evolution?

The "hyper evolution" that by definition would have been necessary (and which demonstrably never happened) to go from a few thousand "kinds", which is apparantly "genus", to millions upon millions of species in only 4000 years.

Now place all the animals in one close proximity before spreading out

You mean, like the "kangaroo kind" and "koala bear kind" that hopped all the way from the middle east to australia over a non/never-existing landbridge without leaving a single trace?

You know, like humans spread out from one central are and bred the current races......

Myeah, that central point was africa and it happened just a tiny bit longer ago then 4000 years ago.

PS: I told you once to participate in the Genographic Project. They'll actually also be able to tell you in which migration wave your ancesters move out of Africa and give an estimate to how long ago that happened ;-)
Spoiler alert: A LOT MORE then just a mere 4000 years ago.

But nothing gives you all insight because you currently ignore what we observe for fantasies.....

Most of your problem extends to your inability to classify things consistently due to your species problem that is self made.

Are you again accusing all biologists, geneticists, botanists, paleontologists, etc of not having a clue of what they are doing?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

if you say so.

No, your posts say so.

 

[Job 33:6]

The part where there was once water to cover the entire world, including the highest mountain tops. And then not.



Ow okay. So, magical otherwise-cataclysmic sudden rise of mountains?
Mega hyper tectonic activity then?

So the Tibet Plateau.... what, that formed in like a week or so, according to your YECism?



The "hyper evolution" that by definition would have been necessary (and which demonstrably never happened) to go from a few thousand "kinds", which is apparantly "genus", to millions upon millions of species in only 4000 years.



You mean, like the "kangaroo kind" and "koala bear kind" that hopped all the way from the middle east to australia over a non/never-existing landbridge without leaving a single trace?




Myeah, that central point was africa and it happened just a tiny bit longer ago then 4000 years ago.

PS: I told you once to participate in the Genographic Project. They'll actually also be able to tell you in which migration wave your ancesters move out of Africa and give an estimate to how long ago that happened ;-)
Spoiler alert: A LOT MORE then just a mere 4000 years ago.



Are you again accusing all biologists, geneticists, botanists, paleontologists, etc of not having a clue of what they are doing?

Regarding hyper evolution, things get even more crazy when you consider things like records of derived species in ancient civilizations. Thinks like certain species of cat or lion or tiger statues in ancient Egypt and china. But then again, these ancient civilizations go back longer than 6000 years anyway.

But if we were to assume ancient Egypt and the pyramids were built after the flood, then we might only have perhaps 100 years for diversification of all cats. Which is pretty crazy when you think about it.

But young earthers have already demonstrated that they're detached from reality, so no surprise here.