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Evolutionary Biology

paul becke

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Loudmouth

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So why do people believe they understand it enough to debate it? Are people just overestimating their knowledge of evolutionary biology because they don't appreciate just how complex it is?

The key to understanding anything is seeing through the complexity to the basic principles. For evolution, those basic principles are understanding the fundamental principles of random mutation, selection, and phylogenies. If you have a firm grasp of these principles then you can start to understand the data within the field of biology and how it relates to the theory.

In the past we would sometimes ask newly arrived creationists when was the last time they ran a PCR, did a BLAST search, looked through a microscope, or used a pipette. I am not saying that only experts are allowed to have an opinion, but I think it is often worth pointing out that most creationists don't even know what BLAST is, or how PCR even works. Their opinions of biology have nothing to do with a curiosity towards science, which is the biggest problem of all.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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The key to understanding anything is seeing through the complexity to the basic principles. For evolution, those basic principles are understanding the fundamental principles of random mutation, selection, and phylogenies. If you have a firm grasp of these principles then you can start to understand the data within the field of biology and how it relates to the theory.

In the past we would sometimes ask newly arrived creationists when was the last time they ran a PCR, did a BLAST search, looked through a microscope, or used a pipette. I am not saying that only experts are allowed to have an opinion, but I think it is often worth pointing out that most creationists don't even know what BLAST is, or how PCR even works. Their opinions of biology have nothing to do with a curiosity towards science, which is the biggest problem of all.


And some creationists are ex evolutionists who spent 25+ years arguing for it, so know your arguments before you even voice them.

Let's look at mutations. How do you relate theory to actual mutational research over the last 50+ years, especially when actual research and experimentation shows in ALL mutation research saturation limits are reached concerning variations, and nothing new is ever then produced? I don't think you can reconcile theory to actual facts, which is why such a large gulf exists between theory and experiments.

Without ignoring the actual experimental evidence by top geneticists in the field, or hand-waving it away, your theory fails to describe actual reality.

http://www.weloennig.de/Loennig-Long...-Variation.pdf

"Additionally, the observation that none of the different methods of mutagenesis − from delicate experiments looking for optimal mutation frequencies in plant breeding to the most massive mutation inductions − have ever changed the fact of selection limits (detected for all the plant and animal species so far investigated), is in agreement with the facts just mentioned as well as with the saturation curves shown above...

However, what has never been achieved by accidental mutations, is the creation of entirely new functional DNA-sequences constituting new genes and new gene reaction chains for novel synorganized anatomical structures and/or physiological functions. Thus, in accord with the laws of probability, examples and cases relativizing the law of recurrent variation have not been observed so far. In fact, also all the models and data recently advanced to solve the problem of completely new functional sequences and the origin of new organs and organ systems by random mutations proved to be grossly insufficient upon close inspection and careful scientific examination...

As far as the critical authors are acquainted with plant breeding research and animal husbandry, they argue that the relatively few positive mutation results have been mainly due to losses of undesirable features and functions, for example, lupines free of alkaloids, rapeseed without eruca acid, peas with extended tendrils instead of compound leaves etc. Yet, they emphasize the significant point that such losses of function cannot explain the origin of all the genetic ‘raw materials’ necessary for natural selection to generate the entire world of organisms...

Yet, perhaps one of the most astounding facts in the history of genetics appears to be the enormous gulf between the optimistic descriptions of mutants by so many authors active in plant breeding research during that period of time and the later "widely spread disappointment regarding mutation breeding due to the disconcerting reality, i.e. the meagre results obtained. Confirming the observation of a rather strange distance between hypotheses and reality, Micke continues his assessment after his calculations quoted above (explaining the relatively few useful mutants achieved in mutation breeding) as follows: “In contrast to such rare achievements there have been innumerable 'promising mutants' reported in innumerable publications, which never seem to appear again on the stage after their first presentation. Nevertheless, there remains a respectable number of mutants which even the self-critical breeder or geneticist have seriously considered as progressive and of which only very few so far have contributed to the development of better crop cultivars. This experience has been disappointing to many, to those who worked with mutations and expected optimistically fast 'break-throughs' as also to those who watched the many mutation activities sceptically but nevertheless hoped that results would make the difficult task of plant breeders easier, at least in particular areas.” "

And here's your biggest problem, to which no evolutionists has an answer, except to pretend it happens anyways.

Mutation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In genetics, a mutation is a change of the nucleotide sequence of the genome of an organism, virus, or extrachromosomal genetic element. Mutations result from unrepaired damage to DNA or to RNA genomes (typically caused by radiation or chemical mutagens), errors in the process of replication, or from the insertion or deletion of segments of DNA by mobile genetic elements. Mutations may or may not produce discernible changes in the observable characteristics (phenotype) of an organism. Mutations play a part in both normal and abnormal biological processes including: evolution, cancer, and the development of the immune system. Mutation can result in several different types of change in sequences. Mutations in genes can either have no effect, alter the product of a gene, or prevent the gene from functioning properly or completely. Mutations can also occur in nongenic regions. One study on genetic variations between different species of Drosophila suggests that if a mutation changes a protein produced by a gene, the result is likely to be harmful, with an estimated 70 percent of amino acid polymorphisms which have damaging effects, and the remainder being either neutral or weakly beneficial. Due to the damaging effects that mutations can have on genes, organisms have mechanisms such as DNA repair to prevent or correct (revert the mutated sequence back to its original state) mutations.

So they can have no effect, prevent the gene from functioning properly or completely, or alter the product of a gene.

Gene product - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A gene product is the biochemical material, either RNA or protein, resulting from expression of a gene. A measurement of the amount of gene product is sometimes used to infer how active a gene is. Abnormal amounts of gene product can be correlated with disease-causing alleles, such as the overactivity of oncogenes which can cause cancer."

So almost invariably altering of the gene product leads to disease-causing alleles or overactivity causing cancer. So in reality they can be neutral or harmful. and very rarely weakly beneficial. Those that are weakly beneficial almost always result from loss of function errors in coding. Errors not corrected by the DNA itself.

Then those that do have an effect, soon run up against the limits of variation, to which precludes the origin of all the genetic ‘raw materials’ necessary for natural selection to generate the entire world of organisms.

Now it is possible on the other hand for genes that were perfect from the start and contained all genetic sequences to have produced all the variations observed today through loss of function, which is the primary means by which mutation occurs.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
 
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Seipai

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Justatruthseeker, why do you keep posting an article that is not about evolution but is about forced breeding? Though the results can be similar they are in no way the same.

Now if you could find an actual scientific article that agreed with you we might take notice of it. What you are doing is simply spamming your worthless link.

And quoting an article from Wikipedia that you do not understand does not help your cause either. No matter how many times you underline the phrases or words that seem to support you. I could use that sort of quote mining to make the Bible support any claim.

You hand waved in a bunch of nonsense. All it takes to get rid of it is a hand wave in return:wave:
 
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CabVet

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And some creationists are ex evolutionists who spent 25+ years arguing for it, so know your arguments before you even voice them.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

I want you to name one person that has spent 25 years arguing for evolution and now thinks that the world is 6,000 years old. Just one person will do.
 
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Loudmouth

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And some creationists are ex evolutionists who spent 25+ years arguing for it, so know your arguments before you even voice them.

Oh please. How many active researchers in the field of biology are actively applying creationism or ID to their research?

Let's look at mutations. How do you relate theory to actual mutational research over the last 50+ years, especially when actual research and experimentation shows in ALL mutation research saturation limits are reached concerning variations, and nothing new is ever then produced? I don't think you can reconcile theory to actual facts, which is why such a large gulf exists between theory and experiments.

Without ignoring the actual experimental evidence by top geneticists in the field, or hand-waving it away, your theory fails to describe actual reality.

http://www.weloennig.de/Loennig-Long...-Variation.pdf

"Additionally, the observation that none of the different methods of mutagenesis − from delicate experiments looking for optimal mutation frequencies in plant breeding to the most massive mutation inductions − have ever changed the fact of selection limits (detected for all the plant and animal species so far investigated), is in agreement with the facts just mentioned as well as with the saturation curves shown above...

However, what has never been achieved by accidental mutations, is the creation of entirely new functional DNA-sequences constituting new genes and new gene reaction chains for novel synorganized anatomical structures and/or physiological functions. Thus, in accord with the laws of probability, examples and cases relativizing the law of recurrent variation have not been observed so far. In fact, also all the models and data recently advanced to solve the problem of completely new functional sequences and the origin of new organs and organ systems by random mutations proved to be grossly insufficient upon close inspection and careful scientific examination...

As far as the critical authors are acquainted with plant breeding research and animal husbandry, they argue that the relatively few positive mutation results have been mainly due to losses of undesirable features and functions, for example, lupines free of alkaloids, rapeseed without eruca acid, peas with extended tendrils instead of compound leaves etc. Yet, they emphasize the significant point that such losses of function cannot explain the origin of all the genetic ‘raw materials’ necessary for natural selection to generate the entire world of organisms...

Yet, perhaps one of the most astounding facts in the history of genetics appears to be the enormous gulf between the optimistic descriptions of mutants by so many authors active in plant breeding research during that period of time and the later "widely spread disappointment regarding mutation breeding due to the disconcerting reality, i.e. the meagre results obtained. Confirming the observation of a rather strange distance between hypotheses and reality, Micke continues his assessment after his calculations quoted above (explaining the relatively few useful mutants achieved in mutation breeding) as follows: “In contrast to such rare achievements there have been innumerable 'promising mutants' reported in innumerable publications, which never seem to appear again on the stage after their first presentation. Nevertheless, there remains a respectable number of mutants which even the self-critical breeder or geneticist have seriously considered as progressive and of which only very few so far have contributed to the development of better crop cultivars. This experience has been disappointing to many, to those who worked with mutations and expected optimistically fast 'break-throughs' as also to those who watched the many mutation activities sceptically but nevertheless hoped that results would make the difficult task of plant breeders easier, at least in particular areas.” "

And here's your biggest problem, to which no evolutionists has an answer, except to pretend it happens anyways.

Mutation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In genetics, a mutation is a change of the nucleotide sequence of the genome of an organism, virus, or extrachromosomal genetic element. Mutations result from unrepaired damage to DNA or to RNA genomes (typically caused by radiation or chemical mutagens), errors in the process of replication, or from the insertion or deletion of segments of DNA by mobile genetic elements. Mutations may or may not produce discernible changes in the observable characteristics (phenotype) of an organism. Mutations play a part in both normal and abnormal biological processes including: evolution, cancer, and the development of the immune system. Mutation can result in several different types of change in sequences. Mutations in genes can either have no effect, alter the product of a gene, or prevent the gene from functioning properly or completely. Mutations can also occur in nongenic regions. One study on genetic variations between different species of Drosophila suggests that if a mutation changes a protein produced by a gene, the result is likely to be harmful, with an estimated 70 percent of amino acid polymorphisms which have damaging effects, and the remainder being either neutral or weakly beneficial. Due to the damaging effects that mutations can have on genes, organisms have mechanisms such as DNA repair to prevent or correct (revert the mutated sequence back to its original state) mutations.

So they can have no effect, prevent the gene from functioning properly or completely, or alter the product of a gene.

Gene product - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A gene product is the biochemical material, either RNA or protein, resulting from expression of a gene. A measurement of the amount of gene product is sometimes used to infer how active a gene is. Abnormal amounts of gene product can be correlated with disease-causing alleles, such as the overactivity of oncogenes which can cause cancer."

So almost invariably altering of the gene product leads to disease-causing alleles or overactivity causing cancer. So in reality they can be neutral or harmful. and very rarely weakly beneficial. Those that are weakly beneficial almost always result from loss of function errors in coding. Errors not corrected by the DNA itself.

Then those that do have an effect, soon run up against the limits of variation, to which precludes the origin of all the genetic ‘raw materials’ necessary for natural selection to generate the entire world of organisms.

Now it is possible on the other hand for genes that were perfect from the start and contained all genetic sequences to have produced all the variations observed today through loss of function, which is the primary means by which mutation occurs.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Reposting the same bad science in every thread is spamming.
 
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mzungu

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The key to understanding anything is seeing through the complexity to the basic principles. For evolution, those basic principles are understanding the fundamental principles of random mutation, selection, and phylogenies. If you have a firm grasp of these principles then you can start to understand the data within the field of biology and how it relates to the theory.

In the past we would sometimes ask newly arrived creationists when was the last time they ran a PCR, did a BLAST search, looked through a microscope, or used a pipette. I am not saying that only experts are allowed to have an opinion, but I think it is often worth pointing out that most creationists don't even know what BLAST is, or how PCR even works. Their opinions of biology have nothing to do with a curiosity towards science, which is the biggest problem of all.
Indeed and if I may add; One does not need to know how jet turbines work or how an aeroplane flies in order to accept that jet aeroplanes fly. We accept this fact because we have evidence that they do. We accept ToE for the very same reasons. Doctors practice medicine which is based on biology which is based on ToE and this is evidence enough for any layman. We accept science in general simply because it works! We do not believe nor worship science. We accept it. This is the fundamental difference that separates science from faith based dogmas.
 
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