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Evolutionary Biology

Sayre

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Alright... confession time...

I don't actually understand evolutionary biology. I don't think many laypeople actually do, I'm just (foolish?) brave enough to admit it.

Before y'all jump all over me - I am actually quite well educated, just not in the sciences. I have post graduation qualifications in my chosen field, but I don't have science education any further than the final year of high school, with a single physics class in college for "fun".

This is a topic where, to understand it enough to debate it (and so many people do debate it) you really need to study it at college level and above. But not that many people have. So why do people believe they understand it enough to debate it? Are people just overestimating their knowledge of evolutionary biology because they don't appreciate just how complex it is?
 

Mystman

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This is a topic where, to understand it enough to debate it (and so many people do debate it) you really need to study it at college level and above. But not that many people have. So why do people believe they understand it enough to debate it? Are people just overestimating their knowledge of evolutionary biology because they don't appreciate just how complex it is?

It's quite common to debate issues that you don't really understand, by appealing to authority. And that can even make sense, if all debate partners recognize the same authorities. Say we're discussing physics. Without any formal education, I might come up with something dumb. But then someone might mention that Aristotle said X. And I'll look that up and find that Newton said Y. And then a third person might come in "no, you're all wrong, since Einstein said Z."

If everyone then trusts Einstein, the discussion has been useful. Even if I don't really understand what Einstein says, I might at least understand the rough idea, and recognize that Newton's ideas were incorrect.

The same might go for discussing evolutionary biology. If everyone trusts the scientific consensus, we can talk about what that consensus is. Most people might not understand the statistics involved in analysing the differences between genomes, but they can still go "well, the people who DO understand the statistics found that they point at a nested hierarchy". And that is a good argument, as long as your debate partner also has trust in those same statisticians.

Of course, on this forum the majority of "debate" seems to be between people appealing to scientific authority and people who blatantly state that they don't trust a single thing that scientists produce, so that is pretty pointless.
 
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Elendur

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It depends on what level you debate it on. I'd never debate it when it comes to genes and such, but heck I do understand why someone is wrong when he/she says there's no evidence (at least partly).
With only rudimentary understanding of the theory it's apparent why fossils would fall into that category (assuming that rudimentary understanding isn't way off).
 
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Old Ned

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Alright... confession time...

I don't actually understand evolutionary biology. I don't think many laypeople actually do, I'm just (foolish?) brave enough to admit it.

Before y'all jump all over me - I am actually quite well educated, just not in the sciences. I have post graduation qualifications in my chosen field, but I don't have science education any further than the final year of high school, with a single physics class in college for "fun".

This is a topic where, to understand it enough to debate it (and so many people do debate it) you really need to study it at college level and above. But not that many people have. So why do people believe they understand it enough to debate it? Are people just overestimating their knowledge of evolutionary biology because they don't appreciate just how complex it is?

Well I frequently debate Evolution, I finished high school at 15, never been back to school. While it's extremely important to study a topic through schooling if you wish to go into that field, that doesn't necessarily mean you HAVE to go through schooling to understand it.
I like to think I have a pretty good grasp of Evolution, everything I know about it simply comes from reading and watching and listening.

A huge part of learning is accepting a correction that is valid and provable.
I am more than aware there are many people on this forum who make me look like a complete idiot when it comes to Evolution, but by the same token, I believe know enough about it to explain much of it. But I'm always willing to learn more and am always grateful for corrections, providing those corrections can be backed up.
When someone says something , I like to go and look it up, find out how many agree, read the original paper, find something that opposes it and eventually put it all together to come to a foundation of knowledge.

No one man knows everything, we are constantly learning, I hit 30 and wanted to know everything about everything, this is obviously not possible, but I enjoy learning as much as I can.

Bottom line, you don't need to be schooled to debate something, but making sure you are informed and understanding some of what you know may be incorrect is how we learn.

A man learns from his mistakes... a wise man learns from others mistakes.
 
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essentialsaltes

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This is a topic where, to understand it enough to debate it (and so many people do debate it) you really need to study it at college level and above.

That might be true if you want to debate it 'in the halls of science'. But the bar for entry in an internet forum is pretty low.
(I mean, look at the politics section.... having knowledge on a topic is clearly not required for posting...)

So why do people believe they understand it enough to debate it? Are people just overestimating their knowledge of evolutionary biology because they don't appreciate just how complex it is?

Yes, overestimating our knowledge and competence is probably a factor. Mystman's point is good, that many of us rely on 'our' experts. Unfortunately, the scientific experts and the creationist experts disagree.

Me, my understanding of evolutionary theory is a class in high school, and a fair amount of reading. That's enough to expose the errors in many common creationist arguments. I'd like to think that when I get out of my depth, I shut up. (On matters relating to physics, I'm more in my element.)

Maybe a more interesting question is just "why do people debate it". If they have a reason for that, the question of how much knowledge they have may not even matter.

It seems obvious that on the creationist side, it's something like:
Evolution contradicts my understanding of the Bible.
My understanding of the Bible cannot be wrong.
Therefore, evolution creates cognitive dissonance.

Different people deal with this cognitive dissonance in different ways. Roughly half of American Christians reject evolution to some extent, but not very many of the Christians here come look in this forum. Hey, maybe some of them rightly know they have little understanding of evolution, and therefore correctly decide not to debate the issue. Others are perhaps avoiding the issue because it makes them uncomfortable (or to avoid interacting with the irredeemably hellbound).

But others deal with their cognitive dissonance by attacking evolution by any means necessary, because it conflicts with a fundamental part of their worldview.

Now, we can look at the other side as well. Roughly half of American Christians do accept evolution (and the proportion is much higher in other countries), and some of them post here in support of evolution.

Their motivation cannot be to convince the creationists to reject the Bible or Christianity. I imagine most of them want to educate their fellows on biology, and/or to show them that there are different ways to interpret the Bible that can be in harmony with science.

As for the hellbound, speaking for myself, I was once a science teacher, and I still have that urge to teach, to educate people about science. I think many of the others here are also very giving with their time to try to educate and eliminate misinformation. Or at least to show support for science, which has been a very successful means for learning about the physical world, and evolution is no exception. Of course, things get contentious, and none of us are saints. ;) Some are probably here just for a good scrap.
 
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Redac

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It depends on what level you debate it on. I'd never debate it when it comes to genes and such, but heck I do understand why someone is wrong when he/she says there's no evidence (at least partly).
With only rudimentary understanding of the theory it's apparent why fossils would fall into that category (assuming that rudimentary understanding isn't way off).

Basically this. I can't get into the detail a lot of the people around here can, but I have enough of a surface-level understanding to make a few points here and there. Not much around here, but elsewhere I suppose. :D

Unfortunately (perhaps fortunately?) my chosen field of linguistics doesn't deal with creationism much. Tower of Babel, maybe, but otherwise I generally defer to those who can explain better.
 
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Delphiki

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Alright... confession time...

I don't actually understand evolutionary biology. I don't think many laypeople actually do, I'm just (foolish?) brave enough to admit it.

Before y'all jump all over me - I am actually quite well educated, just not in the sciences. I have post graduation qualifications in my chosen field, but I don't have science education any further than the final year of high school, with a single physics class in college for "fun".

This is a topic where, to understand it enough to debate it (and so many people do debate it) you really need to study it at college level and above. But not that many people have. So why do people believe they understand it enough to debate it? Are people just overestimating their knowledge of evolutionary biology because they don't appreciate just how complex it is?

Actually, I only have a high school level understanding of biological evolution. I still debate it because I think the point is it's really not that complicated.

The real problem is that its misrepresented by the church and corrupt teachers so that many students grow up with a poor and/or incorrect understanding of it. If you grew up and went to school in Louisiana, Kentucky, or Texas, chances are you may have had a science teacher that either diverted from the curriculum, or interjected their religious opinions through out their biology lesson -- which is illegal in most states and unconstitutional throughout the country.

It's not that creationists are stupid. It's that, for many of them, their opinions have been molded during an impressionable age by the church and teachers who can't keep their religious beliefs separate from their work.

There are pretty much 2 kinds of creationists. At least there are among people who have actually received an education. They are either the liars, seeking to make a buck off of selling books and building museums, or they are the ones who've been lied to that unwittingly support them. I suspect that most of these teachers are just following the beliefs according to how they've been raised. Most public teachers are unfamiliar with their subject matter anyway, and are simply following a predetermined curriculum.

You'll notice that not one argumentative creationist here seems to have a basic understanding of biological evolution. Most of them argue against what they think it is, not what it actually is. Some even go so far as to claim it must be a satanic religious belief.

I like to provide information to others here as a layperson who understands it in that capacity. Once things begin to get over my head, I step aside and leave it to those who have a higher education in biology -- which actually doesn't happen very much, except when a creationist happens to know some specific nit-picky detail on one specific species. I can only argue the general ideas because as a layperson, I don't have a massive catalog of the nested hierarchies or a science lab and all that. But it doesn't mean I'm not well enough familiar with evolution to understand it. You and I both probably know how the weather cycle works, too, and neither of us are expert meteorologists.
 
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bhsmte

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I have an advanced degree in human physiology and had to take quite a bit of biology type courses in college and grad school.

That was a while ago and quite frankly, I am rusty with a lot of it.

To me, debating established scientific theories such as evolution comes down to two things:

-does a person put so much faith in the bible, that anything that goes against it is wrong
-does a person trust science in general and science's ability to accumulate new data, and have a culture of discovery

I would put out there, the debate between creation and evolution, is more psychologically based, then evidence based. When you have a theory, that has been around for 150 years and the evidence (now DNA to support evolution) keeps getting stronger by the day, there has to be some strong psychological stimuli to reject this information, in many cases, out of hand.

Sure, some creationists are well schooled and they study creationist sites where they get tid bits of information which would appear to be legit and are not easy to answer except for someone with a high level of knowledge regarding the mechanisms of evolution. They hang there hats on these arguments, even though they have been soundly refuted by the one's who know evolution the best (biologists), but it gives them life to feed the psychological need.

Whenever I see a creationist making claims that science has had it wrong for all these years and there is really no evidence to support evolution, I always ask them the following questions:

-Do you feel science has an international conspiracy ongoing to support evolution in the overwhelming fashion they do? If so, what is their motivation?
-Why hasn't any scientist(s) been able to produce evidence in the last 150 years which would show evolution to be wrong?
-Do they feel that scientists are just incompetent and they can't see things that they do?

The answers I get are always curious.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I have an advanced degree in human physiology and had to take quite a bit of biology type courses in college and grad school.

That was a while ago and quite frankly, I am rusty with a lot of it.

To me, debating established scientific theories such as evolution comes down to two things:

-does a person put so much faith in the bible, that anything that goes against it is wrong
-does a person trust science in general and science's ability to accumulate new data, and have a culture of discovery

I would put out there, the debate between creation and evolution, is more psychologically based, then evidence based. When you have a theory, that has been around for 150 years and the evidence (now DNA to support evolution) keeps getting stronger by the day, there has to be some strong psychological stimuli to reject this information, in many cases, out of hand.

Sure, some creationists are well schooled and they study creationist sites where they get tid bits of information which would appear to be legit and are not easy to answer except for someone with a high level of knowledge regarding the mechanisms of evolution. They hang there hats on these arguments, even though they have been soundly refuted by the one's who know evolution the best (biologists), but it gives them life to feed the psychological need.

Whenever I see a creationist making claims that science has had it wrong for all these years and there is really no evidence to support evolution, I always ask them the following questions:

-Do you feel science has an international conspiracy ongoing to support evolution in the overwhelming fashion they do? If so, what is their motivation?
-Why hasn't any scientist(s) been able to produce evidence in the last 150 years which would show evolution to be wrong?
-Do they feel that scientists are just incompetent and they can't see things that they do?

The answers I get are always curious.


The real question you should ask is why hasn't science been able to produce evidence in the last 150 years that shows evolution is correct?

All that is ever produced is a paper here and a paper there, that one never hears of again.

http://www.weloennig.de/Loennig-Long...-Variation.pdf

"Additionally, the observation that none of the different methods of mutagenesis − from delicate experiments looking for optimal mutation frequencies in plant breeding to the most massive mutation inductions − have ever changed the fact of selection limits (detected for all the plant and animal species so far investigated), is in agreement with the facts just mentioned as well as with the saturation curves shown above...

However, what has never been achieved by accidental mutations, is the creation of entirely new functional DNA-sequences constituting new genes and new gene reaction chains for novel synorganized anatomical structures and/or physiological functions. Thus, in accord with the laws of probability, examples and cases relativizing the law of recurrent variation have not been observed so far. In fact, also all the models and data recently advanced to solve the problem of completely new functional sequences and the origin of new organs and organ systems by random mutations proved to be grossly insufficient upon close inspection and careful scientific examination...

As far as the critical authors are acquainted with plant breeding research and animal husbandry, they argue that the relatively few positive mutation results have been mainly due to losses of undesirable features and functions, for example, lupines free of alkaloids, rapeseed without eruca acid, peas with extended tendrils instead of compound leaves etc. Yet, they emphasize the significant point that such losses of function cannot explain the origin of all the genetic ‘raw materials’ necessary for natural selection to generate the entire world of organisms...

Yet, perhaps one of the most astounding facts in the history of genetics appears to be the enormous gulf between the optimistic descriptions of mutants by so many authors active in plant breeding research during that period of time and the later "widely spread disappointment regarding mutation breeding due to the disconcerting reality, i.e. the meagre results obtained. Confirming the observation of a rather strange distance between hypotheses and reality, Micke continues his assessment after his calculations quoted above (explaining the relatively few useful mutants achieved in mutation breeding) as follows: “In contrast to such rare achievements there have been innumerable 'promising mutants' reported in innumerable publications, which never seem to appear again on the stage after their first presentation. Nevertheless, there remains a respectable number of mutants which even the self-critical breeder or geneticist have seriously considered as progressive and of which only very few so far have contributed to the development of better crop cultivars. This experience has been disappointing to many, to those who worked with mutations and expected optimistically fast 'break-throughs' as also to those who watched the many mutation activities sceptically but nevertheless hoped that results would make the difficult task of plant breeders easier, at least in particular areas.” "


The golf between your belief in hypothesis and actual reality is so large it can't be bridged, but you continue to ignore reality in favor of your hypothesis's, because that is what you want to believe and will continue to believe, despite the reality. You are in a state of denial, because you can't handle reality which disproved your religious dogma about mutations. They have never been a viable explanation for the origin of species, and never will be. You have no proof mutations are a viable process in evolution in the short term or long term, except in your hypothesis, and we already know the gap that exists between it and reality. You are left with no facts, just theory, theory that does not conform to reality, but wishful thinking.

The only way loss of function is viable, is if all creatures were genetically perfect from the start, and through loss of gene function, the varieties came into being that exist today.

Then the fossil record shows nothing but stasis, despite claims it should show evolutionary change. But all fossils are the same from the first of the species, to the last of the species.

Modern DNA testing has shown the falsity of your upward branching tree, but instead has shown individual "trees" with sideways variation. Not one creature evolving into another, but kind after kind with variation. You have observed this with your very own eyes in cats and dogs.

Genome Biology | Full text | The tree of one percent
 
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Dizredux

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The real question you should ask is why hasn't science been able to produce evidence in the last 150 years that shows evolution is correct?

All that is ever produced is a paper here and a paper there, that one never hears of again.

There have been many thousands of peer reviewed papers involving evolution. I did a Google Scholar look up on evolution and got 4,320,000 results. Just a rough estimate but not bad for papers just here and there.

It is really simple, evolution is a scientific fact at least by the current view of the term "fact" as stated by Gould.

In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms. Stephen Jay Gould
Dizredux
 
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Alright... confession time...

I don't actually understand evolutionary biology. I don't think many laypeople actually do, I'm just (foolish?) brave enough to admit it.

Before y'all jump all over me - I am actually quite well educated, just not in the sciences. I have post graduation qualifications in my chosen field, but I don't have science education any further than the final year of high school, with a single physics class in college for "fun".

This is a topic where, to understand it enough to debate it (and so many people do debate it) you really need to study it at college level and above. But not that many people have. So why do people believe they understand it enough to debate it? Are people just overestimating their knowledge of evolutionary biology because they don't appreciate just how complex it is?

It can happen even with college education. My undergrad was in Biology and I've added to that with additional studies, but a few weeks ago I made an argument about likelyhoods of fixation of positive traits being dependant on population size. Someone, don't remember who, corrected me and I continued to argue the point. Well, I was wrong and conflating two different things.

So yeah, person who was right, sorry, you were right.

I do think there is value gained in discussing topics in which you are out of your depth, but I think you can only really benefit if you realize you are out of your depth. One of the big things you learn from more advanced studies is that there is a whole lot you don't know. That helps keep your opinions flexible so that you can better incorporate new data.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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All theory, read them, you will find no new genes created in any of them, merely variation through Copy Number Variation.

Do you understand what Copy Number Variation is?

It is not the creation of something new, but what already exists rearranged in a new sequence, with most of the changes due to deletion.

Origins and functional impact of copy number variation in the human genome

You have NO evidence any new genes have ever been formed, it only happens in your theory. Without which you have no basis to claim that all life originated from mutations, since mutation research clearly shows such is impossible.

How many times must it be repeated, before you admit to your Fairie Dust?

http://www.weloennig.de/Loennig-Long...-Variation.pdf

"Additionally, the observation that none of the different methods of mutagenesis − from delicate experiments looking for optimal mutation frequencies in plant breeding to the most massive mutation inductions − have ever changed the fact of selection limits (detected for all the plant and animal species so far investigated), is in agreement with the facts just mentioned as well as with the saturation curves shown above...

However, what has never been achieved by accidental mutations, is the creation of entirely new functional DNA-sequences constituting new genes and new gene reaction chains for novel synorganized anatomical structures and/or physiological functions. Thus, in accord with the laws of probability, examples and cases relativizing the law of recurrent variation have not been observed so far. In fact, also all the models and data recently advanced to solve the problem of completely new functional sequences and the origin of new organs and organ systems by random mutations proved to be grossly insufficient upon close inspection and careful scientific examination...

As far as the critical authors are acquainted with plant breeding research and animal husbandry, they argue that the relatively few positive mutation results have been mainly due to losses of undesirable features and functions, for example, lupines free of alkaloids, rapeseed without eruca acid, peas with extended tendrils instead of compound leaves etc. Yet, they emphasize the significant point that such losses of function cannot explain the origin of all the genetic ‘raw materials’ necessary for natural selection to generate the entire world of organisms...

Yet, perhaps one of the most astounding facts in the history of genetics appears to be the enormous gulf between the optimistic descriptions of mutants by so many authors active in plant breeding research during that period of time and the later "widely spread disappointment regarding mutation breeding due to the disconcerting reality, i.e. the meagre results obtained. Confirming the observation of a rather strange distance between hypotheses and reality, Micke continues his assessment after his calculations quoted above (explaining the relatively few useful mutants achieved in mutation breeding) as follows: “In contrast to such rare achievements there have been innumerable 'promising mutants' reported in innumerable publications, which never seem to appear again on the stage after their first presentation. Nevertheless, there remains a respectable number of mutants which even the self-critical breeder or geneticist have seriously considered as progressive and of which only very few so far have contributed to the development of better crop cultivars. This experience has been disappointing to many, to those who worked with mutations and expected optimistically fast 'break-throughs' as also to those who watched the many mutation activities sceptically but nevertheless hoped that results would make the difficult task of plant breeders easier, at least in particular areas.” "


The golf between your belief in hypothesis and actual reality is so large it can't be bridged, but you continue to ignore reality in favor of your hypothesis's, because that is what you want to believe and will continue to believe, despite the reality. You are in a state of denial, because you can't handle reality which disproved your religious dogma about mutations. They have never been a viable explanation for the origin of species, and never will be. You have no proof mutations are a viable process in evolution in the short term or long term, except in your hypothesis, and we already know the gap that exists between it and reality. You are left with no facts, just theory, theory that does not conform to reality, but wishful thinking.
 
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All theory, read them, you will find no new genes created in any of them, merely variation through Copy Number Variation.

Do you understand what Copy Number Variation is?

It is not the creation of something new, but what already exists rearranged in a new sequence, with most of the changes due to deletion.

Origins and functional impact of copy number variation in the human genome

You have NO evidence any new genes have ever been formed, it only happens in your theory. Without which you have no basis to claim that all life originated from mutations, since mutation research clearly shows such is impossible.

How many times must it be repeated, before you admit to your Fairie Dust?

http://www.weloennig.de/Loennig-Long...-Variation.pdf

"Additionally, the observation that none of the different methods of mutagenesis − from delicate experiments looking for optimal mutation frequencies in plant breeding to the most massive mutation inductions − have ever changed the fact of selection limits (detected for all the plant and animal species so far investigated), is in agreement with the facts just mentioned as well as with the saturation curves shown above...

However, what has never been achieved by accidental mutations, is the creation of entirely new functional DNA-sequences constituting new genes and new gene reaction chains for novel synorganized anatomical structures and/or physiological functions. Thus, in accord with the laws of probability, examples and cases relativizing the law of recurrent variation have not been observed so far. In fact, also all the models and data recently advanced to solve the problem of completely new functional sequences and the origin of new organs and organ systems by random mutations proved to be grossly insufficient upon close inspection and careful scientific examination...

As far as the critical authors are acquainted with plant breeding research and animal husbandry, they argue that the relatively few positive mutation results have been mainly due to losses of undesirable features and functions, for example, lupines free of alkaloids, rapeseed without eruca acid, peas with extended tendrils instead of compound leaves etc. Yet, they emphasize the significant point that such losses of function cannot explain the origin of all the genetic ‘raw materials’ necessary for natural selection to generate the entire world of organisms...

Yet, perhaps one of the most astounding facts in the history of genetics appears to be the enormous gulf between the optimistic descriptions of mutants by so many authors active in plant breeding research during that period of time and the later "widely spread disappointment regarding mutation breeding due to the disconcerting reality, i.e. the meagre results obtained. Confirming the observation of a rather strange distance between hypotheses and reality, Micke continues his assessment after his calculations quoted above (explaining the relatively few useful mutants achieved in mutation breeding) as follows: “In contrast to such rare achievements there have been innumerable 'promising mutants' reported in innumerable publications, which never seem to appear again on the stage after their first presentation. Nevertheless, there remains a respectable number of mutants which even the self-critical breeder or geneticist have seriously considered as progressive and of which only very few so far have contributed to the development of better crop cultivars. This experience has been disappointing to many, to those who worked with mutations and expected optimistically fast 'break-throughs' as also to those who watched the many mutation activities sceptically but nevertheless hoped that results would make the difficult task of plant breeders easier, at least in particular areas.” "


The golf between your belief in hypothesis and actual reality is so large it can't be bridged, but you continue to ignore reality in favor of your hypothesis's, because that is what you want to believe and will continue to believe, despite the reality. You are in a state of denial, because you can't handle reality which disproved your religious dogma about mutations. They have never been a viable explanation for the origin of species, and never will be. You have no proof mutations are a viable process in evolution in the short term or long term, except in your hypothesis, and we already know the gap that exists between it and reality. You are left with no facts, just theory, theory that does not conform to reality, but wishful thinking.

Nylonase
 
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mzungu

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Alright... confession time...

I don't actually understand evolutionary biology. I don't think many laypeople actually do, I'm just (foolish?) brave enough to admit it.

Before y'all jump all over me - I am actually quite well educated, just not in the sciences. I have post graduation qualifications in my chosen field, but I don't have science education any further than the final year of high school, with a single physics class in college for "fun".

This is a topic where, to understand it enough to debate it (and so many people do debate it) you really need to study it at college level and above. But not that many people have. So why do people believe they understand it enough to debate it? Are people just overestimating their knowledge of evolutionary biology because they don't appreciate just how complex it is?
A very good question indeed. However I must stress the fact that in such debates one will find participants who are qualified on the subject debated. The laymen participating stoop to gain knowledge from such people. Also any scientific subject debated should not exclude the layperson simply because he or she are not qualified because any misconceptions they may harbour can be pointed out by others more qualified.

I think only the fundamentalists are immune to learning. The rest of us are willing to learn and such debates are one venue where we can acquire some erudition.
 
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