• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Evolution or descent with modification?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Aman777, Feb 20, 2019.

  1. Aman777

    Aman777 Christian

    +553
    Baptist
    Amen, and it agrees in every way with every discovery of mankind. Scripturally, scientifically, historically and genetically, it's God's irrefutable Truth. Amen?
     
  2. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +6,031
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    I gotta go with the bible narrative of the flood.
     
  3. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

    +6,426
    Atheist
    Single
    Really? Even though it is extremely clear that there was no such flood? Genetics alone tells us that. You may not know it, but the fact that waking up in a hotel bathroom in a tubful of ice missing a kidney or two is a myth refutes the Flood story.
     
  4. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +6,031
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    You lost me on the kidney thing. :scratch:

    Regarding the flood, I said the biblical narrative, not the traditional belief of the flood. There is almost nothing in the traditional flood story that matches the biblical story. So I agree that the traditional flood story can be debunked.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

    +6,426
    Atheist
    Single

    I am sure that I did. And perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by the "biblical narrative". At any rate let me explain the kidney argument. In the 70's or 80's it was discovered that all cheetahs are incredibly inbred. So much so that a skin graft, which is a rather risk free organ transplant, from one cheetah to another posed almost zero risk of rejection. As you know human organ transplants are very difficult since unless there is a very close genetic match the body will reject a transplanted organ. That is why there are long waiting lists for transplants. Cheetahs do not have this problem. When DNA analysis became perfected scientist were able to analyze the difference between cheetahs and project backwards. It turns out about 10,000 years ago they went through a population bottleneck that was almost, though not quite, of Noah's Ark proportion. Their breeding population got down to less than 10 individuals. The flood story predicts that not only cheetahs, but all life would have an even more severe populaiton bottleneck. Humans included. The severe inbreeding that the cheetahs were forced to go through by their whisker thin escape form extinction has left them with a poulaiton where any two cheetahs are more closely related to each other than you would be related to your sister, that is if you have one.

    If you are interested you can read more here:

    Dating the genetic bottleneck of the African cheetah.

    That we do not see this is just one more piece of evidence that tells us that there was no flood.
     
  6. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +6,031
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    I don't get the connection to humans. By the time of the flood humans were pretty screwed up, with a huge genetic variation. This large variation would have been carried over through Noah's daughters-in-law, and possibly by his wife.
     
  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

    +6,426
    Atheist
    Single
    I thought that you did not believe the flood myth? And don't give me this "screwed up" nonsense unless you can support it. I can see that this went over your head. Populations tend to have quite a few alleles for every genes. Alleles are different variants of gene. For example the gene that determine eye color are alleles. For transplants one looks for as few differences in alleles as possible. Alleles tend to naturally accumulate as time goes on. We can measure how fast they build up. Cheetahs were reduced to a very small population. Since that occurred their population has recovered to an extent, but they have not had enough time to develop the number of alleles that a healthy population has. It is why there existence is still threatened by this ten thousand year old event. If the number of people was reduces to under 10 breeding individuals as occurred to Cheetahs, and that occurred even more recently there would be less differentiation in humans than there are in cheetahs. If the Flood story was true, that the human population was reduced to 8 people, only six of which were breeding, then transplants should not be the problem that they are today.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  8. Aman777

    Aman777 Christian

    +553
    Baptist
    Not so since the traditional religious story does not match the story written in Genesis. Here's God's Truth as actually written in Genesis.

    Eleven thousand years ago, Adam's firmament/Heaven appeared in Lake Van, Turkey in the mountains of Ararat. Genesis 8:4 The canopy on top of the firmament was opened and the solid bottom half of the boundary of Adam's Adam's entire world/Universe was totally destroyed or perished 2 Peter 3:6 and Adam's Earth was "clean dissolved" Isaiah 24:19 in the flood.

    It had rained for 40 days and nights and the flood reached a depth of 22.5 feet Genesis 7:20 covering the mountains on Adam's small flat world, releasing the 450 foot long Ark into the Lake as the solid firmament sank. There was NO bottleneck since Noah's grandsons had NO other Humans (descendants of Adam) to marry. They married and produced today's Humans with the prehistoric people who had been on Earth for millions of years. Genesis 6:4 That's God's irrefutable Truth.
     
  9. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

    +6,426
    Atheist
    Single
    No bottleneck means no flood. What source do you use for your translation?
     
  10. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +6,031
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    Based on the pre-flood and post-flood narrative it is unlikely that there was a genetic bottleneck. Noah's wife, sons, and their wives likely carried over all if not most of the genetic diversity extant at that time.

    Case in point.

    [​IMG]
    These littermates share an Australian Shepherd mother, although neither exactly resembles that breed.

    Physical differences between siblings carried on for generations as well as revealed in the story of Jacob and Esau.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
  11. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

    +7,796
    United States
    Other Religion
    Married
    That's what a genetic bottleneck is--in this case eight different genomes.
     
  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

    +6,426
    Atheist
    Single
    Sorry, but they could not. There are far too many alleles of genes for this to happen.
     
  13. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +6,031
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    Seven of the eight were likely 'mongrels', carrying the genetic characteristics of perhaps dozens of ethnicities, which would explain the rise of so many differing peoples shortly after the flood. Recall that only Noah was "perfect in his generations" (genealogy?)
     
  14. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +6,031
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    If alleles are genetic mutations that further reinforces my point doesn't it? Noah's group would have carried even more genetic information.
     
  15. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +6,031
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    I said the traditional myth, not the real story.

    Genesis 6:12
    And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted (screwed up) his way upon the earth.
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

    +6,426
    Atheist
    Single
    What do you mean by "the real story"? What is your version of the flood?


    That is a fail. Since the Bible's account is in doubt it cannot be a witness for itself.
     
  17. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +6,031
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    Traditional vs Real

    Large ship vs Three story floating warehouse
    Ark a simple structure vs A complex structure
    Rain caused flood vs Sea waters
    Highest mountains covered vs High hills covered
    Noah lone builder vs Many workers
    Flood raised mountains vs Preexisting mountains

    It's the only history we have.
     
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

    +6,426
    Atheist
    Single
    If you go by that standard then the Ark was not needed. That is a local flood, of which there is evidence of. Legends often start out based upon real events. But as I said, the Ark was not needed for that flood. One thing to remember is that real life events do leave real life evidence behind.

    Nope, it is not history. It is not even close to being the oldest religious writings. The date of the Old Testament is more recent than you probably realize.
     
  19. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +6,031
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    The point is that the water was deep enough to do the job. Regarding the missing evidence, it wasn't that kind of flood.
     
  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

    +6,426
    Atheist
    Single
    The point is that your version first said it was not "deep enough". Any version of the Flood that is small enough not to have left clear evidence is so small that the Ark itself was superfluous. The problems with the Ark are endless. Endless evidence that tells us that it did not happen and no reliable evidence for it. Taking a part of the Bible that should be a morality tale and treating it as if it really happened harms Christianity.
     
Loading...