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Evolution or descent with modification?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Aman777, Feb 20, 2019.

  1. inquiring mind

    inquiring mind associate with those you can learn from Supporter

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    I think macroevolution (or the concept of universal descent from a common ancestor) answers your question.
     
  2. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinator

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    We find more than enough in the rocks and in DNA to say "it certainly appears as if it happened this way and it is certainly the most probable way that it did happen".

    You have chosen to ignore that evidence. I know you have ignored it because the evidence is so overwhelming that, if you had studied it, you would be forced to agree with me.

    I do not have a problem with anyone who says "I am aware of the evidence, but my faith and personal experience of God and confidence in the literal truth of Scripture lead me to reject it." That is a faith based position I fully respect, even though I doubt its utility.

    I do have a problem with someone who pretends the evidence is inadequate, or insufficient, or even - as some say - non-existent. Those people are either deceiving themselves, or knowlingly attempting to deceive others. That I do not respect, though I fear its utility.
     
  3. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    Oh, God's Word. So once again you are not really talking about the existence of God or our salvation in Christ, but about your own interpretation of Scripture. You are not preaching the Gospel of Christ, as He commanded us to do, but instead you are preaching the literal inerrancy of Genesis.
     
  4. pitabread

    pitabread Well-Known Member

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    No, that doesn't answer the question because we likely have very different understanding of it.

    I'm asking what you think "complete progressive transformation" means. You used this phrase after all.
     
  5. inquiring mind

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    Simply put, I think it is your interpretation of the evidence that is inadequate.
     
  6. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinator

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    It is my interpretation. It just happens to coincide, on all major points, with the interpretation of tens of thousands of epxerts, many of them Christians, who have devoted their lives to testing, validating and enhancing that interpretation. How much time have you devoted to studying the evidence?
     
  7. inquiring mind

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    I don't think species (your term) gradually appear from ‘nothing’ (I'd think that would make for "complete progressive transformation" if you don't believe in creation), but rather all at once and basically fully formed. For all the biological push, there's just not much real support in the fossil record for such a steady transformation. Please try to explain your reasoning without pretending to understand God's building blocks and how life could be breathed into molecular cells.
     
  8. inquiring mind

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    And there are many who disagree... there you go questioning my knowledge again.
     
  9. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinator

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    1. The number who disagree is a tiny fraction of those who agree. This does not mean the majority is correct, but it does require the minority offer much more than handwaving and empty assertions if they wish to be taken seriously.

    2. Questioning your knowledge? Of course I am questioning your knowledge! Your interpretation of the massive volumes of evidence and the scientific consensus require that your knowledge be questioned.
    I have zero problem having my knowledge questioned. Why would I? The question is, why would you?
    Nevertheless, it was nice - if failed - attempt to deflect attention from the question? So . . .

    3. How much time have you devoted to studying the evidence?

    Edit: I've been reflecting more on "questioning of knowledge". The more I think on it, the more I realise it appears to reveal something significant about your approach to science. I and any other person with pretensions of scientific thinking not only expect to have their knowledge questioned, they welcome it and would be disappointed - in many cases - if it were not. Yet you seem to resent it! That tells me much more about your attitude on the matter than you might have intended to reveal. Nevertheless, question 3 still stands. Will you demonstrate that the opinion I am forming of you is flawed and provide an answer? I hope so.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  10. inquiring mind

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    No, God’s Word is but one of many ways He communicates with us. I don’t think God communicates through words only, but through feelings and other means as well, scientific study and thought included. The key for us is to make sure it’s God’s message we’re getting (myself included). You don’t really believe Jesus doubted Genesis, do you?
     
  11. inquiring mind

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    It takes belief in macroevolution... right?

    I don't know, you seem much too defensive for me to believe that.

    Well, if your knowledge can be included... quite a bit.

    Sounds like therapy... do I have to pay for the answer?
     
  12. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    I have no reason to think He doubted it, quite the reverse, in fact. However, He did not give us His opinion about its literary genre. I think that for Jesus, as for most Christians, the Scriptures were authoritative because they are the word of God, not because they fit someone's preconceived notion of what kind of literary form they must be.
     
  13. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    It takes an understanding of how macroevolution is said to work, not belief in it.
     
  14. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinator

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    No belief is required. It does take acceptance that macroevolution occurs. That acceptance is based upon a sufficient study of the evidence mentioned in previous posts.

    That comes dangerously close to you calling me a liar? I notice you have avoided the sensible test by enquiring as to the extent of my knowledge, or by putting it to the test through a series of specific questions. Instead you resort to offensive generalities and implicit insults.

    Seriously! Are you trying to be provocative and rude, or does it just come naturally? Either declare that you have no intention of stating how much study of evolutionary theory you have made, or provide some proper details.


    Sarcasm is another avoidance mechanism. The question remains: what is the extent of your knowledge of evolutionary theory and how did you acquire it?
     
  15. inquiring mind

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    All the study in the world won't make you accept something if you don't believe it. In fact, I'd venture to bet that the majority of people who accept macroevolution have actually studied it very little; they just believe what they are told.

    Any closer than you were to calling me a liar in post #22?

    I have no intentions of stating how much study of evolutionary theory I have.

    Again, I have no intentions of stating how much study of evolutionary theory I have. That's like me continually asking you to declare the extent and sources of your knowledge regarding Creationism.
     
  16. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    Which we would gladly provide.
     
  17. inquiring mind

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    Maybe so, but I'd prefer not to ask that as a challenge to your comments.
     
  18. pitabread

    pitabread Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by 'nothing' in this context? Evolution doesn't work from nothing, it builds on what came before it. Even if you wind back all the way to the origin of life, the first life would have still been built on organic precursors.

    So I'm still not sure what you mean by "complete progressive transformation" in the context of biological evolution. Could you give an example of what you are talking about, even if it is just hypothetical?

    Also FWIW, species is not "my term". I'm not sure what you are trying to imply with that comment. :scratch:
     
  19. pitabread

    pitabread Well-Known Member

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    What about biologists? I would think they've studied more than most. And there's near-universal consent on the subject of common ancestry.
     
  20. inquiring mind

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    By 'origin of life' do you mean when God breathed consciousness and a soul as we know it into organic precursors forming a man and making him a living being?

    By progressive transformation I meant the steady transformation from a common ancestor (in the context of biological evolution) from wherever you think the beginning was. By complete I simply meant from the beginning up to this point. I don't understand your questioning here; surely you understood that. But, evidently you don't think there was a starting point at all. Is that correct?

    Maybe you would be more satisfied using the term 'Kind.'

    What about them? What does that have to do with my comment referring to the majority of people?
     
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