Evolution; Just say NO

[timlamb]

Evolution was just guesses and theories and assuptions until it was made into a religion by misguided souls wanting to disprove creation.

There are allogories and metaphors all through scripture but it is always plain the writer intended to give you a mental picture of something he couldn't explain. This is not the case with Genesis.

No one has any idea about how decay excellerates over a four thousand year period since the flood.

If evolution was true I believe the omniscient God could have allogorised it better than what is in Genesis. Genesis is true simply because it makes no sense otherwise.

I've always wondered what a true evolutionist said about this: At what point in the evolutionary process did man get a soul, dominion over the other animals, a moral code beyond the natural drives. Which creature in the course of developement decided to look skyward or inward and proclaim there is a God. If evolution is true why did Luke bother to trace Jesus linage back to Adam. How did God know us before the world began, and did He know the ape or lizard who is my ancestor too?

Man was made, he sinned, and thus death came to man. This is scripture. This is not evolution.

The bible doesn't say to look deep into the earth to find the oringins of man. It says the plan of grace was known before creation and the inner man is what we are to concern ourselves with: the spiritual life He blew into the first man.

If you believe the bible there is no way you can believe evolution. And if you don't believe the bible, it doesn't matter much what you believe.

 

[gluadys]

Evolution was just guesses and theories and assuptions until it was made into a religion by misguided souls wanting to disprove creation.

This unsubstantiated statement shows a very poor grasp of history.

If evolution was true I believe the omniscient God could have allogorised it better than what is in Genesis. Genesis is true simply because it makes no sense otherwise.

Why would he allegorize it at all? Does scripture have to reference everything like an encyclopedia? There are a lot of things never mentioned in scripture. Why can't evolution be one of the things scripture simply does not mention?

I've always wondered what a true evolutionist said about this: At what point in the evolutionary process did man get a soul, dominion over the other animals, a moral code beyond the natural drives.

The answer is quite simple. These are not scientific questions and science doesn't provide answers to non-scientific questions.

If evolution is true why did Luke bother to trace Jesus linage back to Adam.

Why not? Every species begins somewhere, and we have not become a new species since Adam.

How did God know us before the world began,

Why do you think evolution would make this a problem for God?

and did He know the ape or lizard who is my ancestor too?

Certainly.

Man was made, he sinned, and thus death came to man. This is scripture. This is not evolution.

That's right. In fact it is not even science.

If you believe the bible there is no way you can believe evolution. And if you don't believe the bible, it doesn't matter much what you believe.

Many who believe the bible have no problem accepting the truth of evolution as well. Sorry if it does pose a problem for you.

 

[staveoffzombies]

Evolution was just guesses and theories and assuptions until it was made into a religion by misguided souls wanting to disprove creation.

Not true. Scientists merely formed theories based off of their observations, and through the years have documented and prettyt much proven the initial hypothesis.

There are allogories and metaphors all through scripture but it is always plain the writer intended to give you a mental picture of something he couldn't explain. This is not the case with Genesis.

Says you.

If evolution was true I believe the omniscient God could have allogorised it better than what is in Genesis. Genesis is true simply because it makes no sense otherwise.

Again, you aren't backing your statements up.

I've always wondered what a true evolutionist said about this: At what point in the evolutionary process did man get a soul, dominion over the other animals, a moral code beyond the natural drives. Which creature in the course of developement decided to look skyward or inward and proclaim there is a God. If evolution is true why did Luke bother to trace Jesus linage back to Adam. How did God know us before the world began, and did He know the ape or lizard who is my ancestor too?

God simply used evolution as a tool in creation. Eventually He must have got to the point where He had man developed in His image.

The bible doesn't say to look deep into the earth to find the oringins of man. It says the plan of grace was known before creation and the inner man is what we are to concern ourselves with: the spiritual life He blew into the first man.

The bible didn't tell us to do a lot of things scientifically, yet we did and our lives are better for it.

If you believe the bible there is no way you can believe evolution. And if you don't believe the bible, it doesn't matter much what you believe.

Says you and an ever-decreasing minority. I don't appreciate being told what I can and can't believe.

 

[shernren]

To be quite honest, there is often no convincing these people. What's the point?

When the next creationist comes in with a withering and misguided assault on evolution, I'm going to sit back and watch if creationists have the heart and courage to chide their own.

 

[Dannager]

To be quite honest, there is often no convincing these people. What's the point?

When the next creationist comes in with a withering and misguided assault on evolution, I'm going to sit back and watch if creationists have the heart and courage to chide their own.

Not a bad idea. I wouldn't wait around too long though.

 

[shernren]

Not a bad idea. I wouldn't wait around too long though.

Two days. Long enough for a good response from any side to be heard, but not so long that the thread will have disappeared off the first page.

 

[crawfish]

I wonder if these guys even come back and read the responses.

 

[Mallon]

Always good to get a mechanic's expert take on evolution.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to burn all my textbooks!

 

[theIdi0t]

I always wished we had flat earthers on this forum. I would never even debate them, you'd perhaps find me supporting their views occasionally, I would just love to see how a yec vs. flat-earther debate would be like.

"Round earth just say no!

The Round Earth is just guesses and theories and assumptions, and man made pictures, that was made into a religion by misguided souls wanting to disprove a inerrant bible.

You are taking man over God, if you believe in a round earth!

If you believe the flat-earth passages of the Bible are allegorical, then how long will be before you say that Jesus never existed, and that the Gospel story is allegorical?"

I wonder if the YEC even realizes that much of what he accepts today, was the basis of Science vs. Bible arguments of yesterday, that the language he uses for his arguments today is no different that what believers used to defend geocentrism yesterday. I wonder if he realizes how close his argument mirrors that of those fundamental protestants who exist today, that still support the geocentric model.

I know if I was a literalist, I'd be a fiery one, not a luke-warm one, that only accepts a literal Genesis. I'd be a bible thumping, die hard flat earther, coming into these forums, saying that anyone who believes in a round earth, has just signed his ticket to hell.

 

[Galle]

I always wished we had flat earthers on this forum. I would never even debate them, you'd perhaps find me supporting their views occasionally, I would just love to see how a yec vs. flat-earther debate would be like.

A friend of mine occasionally tells the tale of how he infiltrated a YEC board by acting as a geocentrist. In short, the YECs didn't have any objections to the geocentrist "science", but were content to discuss its Biblical support. I would be quite interested in a similar experiment here, for I think it would say something very powerful about YECs attitude toward science and truthiness.

 

[timlamb]

I wonder if these guys even come back and read the responses.

Yep, read them all, nothing scientific there, just a few statements admitting they could not answer with science (meaning unless science says so it there is not answer?).

Hey, bones and stuff I can't deny, but if you look through your eyes of worldly/mans wisdom you will so eaily be decieved. Looking through spiritual eyes and measuring all truth by scripture the world is completely different.

gluadys, if you believe evolution but don't believe Genesis is an allegory, then you must think it is just fiction and thus the whole bible is in question. And you say the answer to my question is not a scientific one, so answer spiritually, I want to know where the evolution ends and the spiritual begins with the human race.

staveoffzombies- of course says me, I am responding to the 'says' of you and your fellow evolutionists. They say man evolved and Genesis is an allegory. I'm saying that what evolution believes and what Genesis says are to far appart to even be allegorical. One is right or the other. I'm sure there was much more to creation than our human minds could comprehend (like why He made us in the first place) but if evolution is true it would not have been hard to come closer to explaining it in the creation story. If we can find out on our own I think God could figure out how to support what we would eventually find.

mallon- this mechanic will keep his text book "In the beginning God created". The Holy Bible is the most accurate history book around.

theIDiOt- No where in scripture does the bible teach a flat earth. Isaiah 40:22 says "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth" The word interpreted circle is the Hebrew khug which means sphericity or roundness. It was the flat earth proponants in history who said the bible was in error because it said the earth was round.

The bible is quite scientific, as in Job 26:7 "...He[God] suspends the earth over nothing." Sounds to me like they understood the earth in space better than science of the day.

You offer nothing to the conversation but antagonism.

God Bless you all,
Tim

 

[crawfish]

timlamb...

Many of us do NOT believe Genesis was written as allegory, yet is not literal. It was written for a purpose entirely unrelated to scientific or historical fact. Are the parables "lies" because they didn't really happen?

There is an underlying message to Genesis that remains strictly "true" even if the account is not taken literally. In fact, a literal view often precludes one from seeking these deeper truths - they stop at the surface, satisfied that they understand what's being said.

As to offering "antagonism". We see the same mistake being made with literalism as history has shown the church making for 2000 years. You read the bible, make assumptions as to how the world must be, and then stick to those assumptions in the face of overwhelming evidence. Flat earth, geocentrism - all have been argued by literalists over the year, yet have been proven to be incorrect. We see the harm in this view and know we need to make a stand, to let the world know that it is possible be believe in God without having to deny what the evidence tells us. The emphasis given to creationism is polarizing, not evangelizing. I, and many other TE's, take offense to that.

 

[staveoffzombies]

staveoffzombies- of course says me, I am responding to the 'says' of you and your fellow evolutionists. They say man evolved and Genesis is an allegory. I'm saying that what evolution believes and what Genesis says are to far appart to even be allegorical. One is right or the other. I'm sure there was much more to creation than our human minds could comprehend (like why He made us in the first place) but if evolution is true it would not have been hard to come closer to explaining it in the creation story. If we can find out on our own I think God could figure out how to support what we would eventually find.

Look, I'd love to believe in a 6 day creation...I used to, quite passionately. Then I actually took a look at the evidence pointing towards evolution. I approached it with an open mind and talked to a LOT of people on the subject. The conclusion I came to was unavoidable. It's airtight. Scientists may not have nailed down every single aspect of how evolution happened, but they have so much evidence and proofs for it that I would be lying to myself if I chose to not believe it.

I DO believe the Bible, and I have trust in what Jesus accomplished on this earth. But presented with the the scientific evidence I have to come to the conclusion that the creation story is allegorical.

Evolutionists have never been in the business of disproving Christianity. In fact, apart from a few militant atheists, most secular evolutionists that I've talked to have told me that the study of evolution is simply the observation of how things devloped over time....it doesn't really concern itself as to where the matter came from in the first place. In other words: Evolutionists are not trying to disprove God.

The only reason evolutionists clash with creationists so much is because creationists are constantly on the offensive, constantly attacking evolutionists. How would you like it if your lifes work and research were attacked, and not only attacked, but usually attacked by people who use falshoods and assumptions to attack ou with. I'd be pretty mad, and so do the scientists who are constantly harrassed.

I'm a Christian, but I also have a God-given intellect that I need to use. And by using it I have come to the conclusions that I've stated here.

 

[Mallon]

mallon- this mechanic will keep his text book "In the beginning God created". The Holy Bible is the most accurate history book around.

And yet, strangely, the Bible never makes that claim...

 

[gluadys]

Yep, read them all, nothing scientific there, just a few statements admitting they could not answer with science (meaning unless science says so it there is not answer?).

No, meaning there are some things that science is not the right source to look to for answers.

gluadys, if you believe evolution but don't believe Genesis is an allegory, then you must think it is just fiction and thus the whole bible is in question.

You fail at mind-reading and logic. I do not believe the truth of the bible is in question. I do not believe it is "just fiction" though some parts are unquestionably fiction e.g. Jesus' parables. But even the fiction is there to instruct in truth and righteousness. Fiction is no good reason to ignore scripture.

And you say the answer to my question is not a scientific one, so answer spiritually, I want to know where the evolution ends and the spiritual begins with the human race.

Evolution doesn't end. We and all living species on earth are still evolving and will continue to evolve as long as life exists on earth.

I don't know where the spiritual begins. The most extreme view I know of is that of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin who held that even atoms are spiritual. That is, he believed every atom has a spiritual as well as a physical existence.

A more moderate view is that of Thomas Aquinas who associated the spiritual with life and held that all living things are (or have) souls.

Then some people hold that only humans among physical beings are also spiritual beings.

Of course, in one sense the spiritual has no beginning or ending, since God is an eternal spirit.

Isaiah 40:22 says "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth" The word interpreted circle is the Hebrew khug which means sphericity or roundness.

And roundness (circularity) is the more usual meaning. In the same verse Isaiah describes the heavens spread over the earth "like a tent to dwell in". Ever see tent-dwellers pitch their tent on a rolling ball? Or do they prefer a flat patch of stable earth?

The bible is quite scientific, as in Job 26:7 "...He[God] suspends the earth over nothing." Sounds to me like they understood the earth in space better than science of the day.

The writer of Job didn't know there is such a thing as space. He thought of the earth as set on pillars above a watery abyss (the waters under the firmament. under the earth). But what were the pillars standing on? Nothing---it's water, water all the way down. There is no bottom.

 

[busterdog]

And yet, strangely, the Bible never makes that claim...

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

If Winston Churchill writes a great book about WWII, but doesn't know the ultimate fate of nations, but the Bible does, which is more accurate?

I know what you are saying. The Bible doesn't say anything about Tomb Raider, but you can still play it if you want to.

The point of the Biblical accuracy is a good one. The semantics demanded of the Bible are just that, semantics. If the Word is eternal, how could it possibly not be accurate? (Obviously we set aside translational issues and very minor textual problems. If you want to assume that Genesis diverges significantly from the real word, go ahead, but that is an assumption at best.)

 

[Mallon]

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

... and this bespeaks the historical accuracy of the Bible how?

 

[laptoppop]

Tim, I'm a staunch YEC (young earth creationist), but I would take issue, especially with your first and last points. That's not how the general acceptance of evolution came about.

As to your last point -- understand that there are very vocal folks around these parts that passionately support evolution -- but they are still very much brothers and sisters in Christ. Yes, I see problems in that as well, but none of us are right in everything (except me of course ). I believe they are interpreting the Scriptures incorrectly -- but they are still seeking to follow Jesus and to please Him.

Now -- as to "Literalist" -- get off it! That's a fake straw man representation of virtually all of conservative Christendom. You want us to be accurate about evolution - you'd better start being accurate about our theology and biblical interpretation.

As for infiltrating a board pretending to be something else.... isn't that lying?

 

[busterdog]

... and this bespeaks the historical accuracy of the Bible how?

Well, obviously we differ. To me the conclusion is obvious.

The immediate historical context so essential to beating the literal truth out of the text does not exist now and won't exist when heaven and earth pass away. The beliefs of the ancient audience do not tell you want the writer believed.. And, if it wasn't true, it would pass away.

 

[Assyrian]

Tim, I'm a staunch YEC (young earth creationist), but I would take issue, especially with your first and last points. That's not how the general acceptance of evolution came about.

As to your last point -- understand that there are very vocal folks around these parts that passionately support evolution -- but they are still very much brothers and sisters in Christ. Yes, I see problems in that as well, but none of us are right in everything (except me of course). I believe they are interpreting the Scriptures incorrectly -- but they are still seeking to follow Jesus and to please Him.

Yay Laptoppop!