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Evolution is not improbable nor is it based on "chance"

kern

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The statement is commonly made by anti-evolutionists that evolution is simply "chance", or they attempt to use an analogy to show that the development of humans is so improbable that the Theory of Evolution is worthless. However, all of these analogies are flawed in a basic way.


Let's consider two challenges that will serve to illustrate the mathematics of the probability involved. This may seem like a mere semantic difference but it's critical.

The first challenge is to roll 100 dice until all of them come up 1's. Each time you roll you must reroll all 100 dice. The probability of this occuring is 1 in 6.5 x 10^77. A computer that could do 1 billion trials per second (which I believe is more than any current computer can do) would take 1.2 x 10^66 (which means 1.2 plus 66 zeroes) *years* to complete this.

The second challenge is to roll 100 dice until all of them come up 1's. However, this time, after each roll, you may pick out the dice that show 1's and not reroll them the next time. So the pool of dice you are rolling will become smaller and smaller until all of them are 1's. This produces the same results as the first challenge, but is much faster -- you could probably do that yourself in 15 minutes or less, and a computer would probably take less than a second to do this.

Creationists always compare evolution to the first challenge when they are discussing how improbable life is. They often compare it to a monkey hammering on a typewriter and trying to produce a play, or wind randomly wearing away at rock to produce the Mount Rushmore carvings.

However, Natural Selection does not start from the beginning with each new generation. The essence of natural selection is that the gains are preserved and the mistakes are eradicated. This makes evolution much closer to the second challenge than the first. And that makes a huge difference, 1 second versus a number of years much larger than the projected life of the universe.

You may not agree with evolution, but there's no point in trying to use an argument against it that is so clearly wrong.

-Chris
 

Lanakila

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Kern you may want to check out Dawin's Black Box by Behe. Not just on the web either, but I recommend that all evolutionists read it. Its not chance, but millions upon millions of chances (undirected mutations)actually that supposedly add up to macro-evolution. A good discussion of Behe's book is going on at the Baptist Board forum.
 
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Morat

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Oh yes, Behe. It's always fun to watch YEC's invoke Behe, who fully accepts common descent. And, of course, who has suffered the embarassment of making claims about the state of research into biochemical evolution that were flatly contradicted by a quick PubMed search before his book was even written.

However, to address your point:
Its not chance, but millions upon millions of chances (undirected mutations)actually that supposedly add up to macro-evolution.
The mutations are undirected. Evolution is not. How can that be? Oh wait, that must be natural selection.

How embarassing to forget that.
 
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kern

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Originally posted by Lanakila
Not just on the web either, but I recommend that all evolutionists read it. Its not chance, but millions upon millions of chances (undirected mutations)actually that supposedly add up to macro-evolution.

But in the end, evolution is not *based* on chance as many anti-evolutionists profess. Chance is part of evolution, but natural selection ensures that the end product is not simply random. If you have a sports tournament with randomly seeded teams, you would not say that the entire tournament is based on chance.

-Chris
 
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Lanakila

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Natural selection insures huh? Well, it is more technical than that. I am not surprised BB kicked the athiests off, and manage the creation/evolution debate the way they do. This board appears to be taken over by evolutionists, and its a Christian forum. Yes, I know there are Christian evolutionists but, they are actually the minority of Christians. So it makes sense to me what the BB did. Helen's descriptions of Behe's book are very good though and thats why I mentioned that board.
 
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Morat

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Natural selection insures huh? Well, it is more technical than that.
Are you going to explain it, or should we just assume you're wrong because you didn't?

"It's more technical than that" is not a rebuttal.
I am not surprised BB kicked the athiests off, and manage the creation/evolution debate the way they do.
Yes. That seemed to be a direct result of one of the more prominent members getting cornered over an accusation she made.

The accusation was seen as insulting by several people, and they hounded her to prove her accusation or apologize.

She did neither, the board was shut down, and three months later brought up under the new format.
This board appears to be taken over by evolutionists, and its a Christian forum. Yes, I know there are Christian evolutionists but, they are actually the minority of Christians.
Factually incorrect. Creationism is pretty much a product of fundamentalist Protestanism, and is found pretty much solely in the US (and some in Australia).

The vast majority of Christians (Catholics + liberal and mainstream Protestants) have no problems with evolution, and many of them work in the field of biology and evolution.
So it makes sense to me what the BB did. Helen's descriptions of Behe's book are very good though and thats why I mentioned that board.
Only if you don't check her statements. The Galatian did an excellent job of pointing out the flaws in her (and Behe's) logic. The Galatian, by the way, is quite Christian.
 
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Lanakila

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Debating you guys can be a full time job, and most people have more things to do than that. When there are more than 2 or three against one, it is easy to get tripped up. I am not making excuses, I just started going to BB this week.
 
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Originally posted by Lanakila
Natural selection insures huh? Well, it is more technical than that.

Nope. Read the works of Wright, Fisher, and Haldane from the first half of last century. Natual selection can only occur if survival is not random.

I am not surprised BB kicked the athiests off, and manage the creation/evolution debate the way they do.

BaptistBoard is in the process of eliminating all non-conservates and deleting all their posts. (Liberal Baptists, like Rev. Joshua will be allowed to stay for now.) It's because the conservatives were loosing badly in the Free-For-All forums and the webmaster was embarrassed. They started with "non-theists," and it appears that Catholics will be getting the axe next.

They began moderating--nay, filtering--the E/C forum after Helen painted herself into a corner and began spamming the board to cover her tracks. As someone who used to post there frequenty, I can tell you that replies to Helen get screened much more heavily than to other posters. One moderator even told me they weren't BB had no interest in science. I've even seen moderating that completely changed the meaning of a person's post. Even with the playing field baised so heavily in favor of YEC, they still lose every time.

This board appears to be taken over by evolutionists, and its a Christian forum. Yes, I know there are Christian evolutionists but, they are actually the minority of Christians.

Got any statistics to back that up? Or are you just going from the Christians you personally know? Creationists and conservatives don't nearly have the monopoly on Christian faith they think they do.
 
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Originally posted by Lanakila
Debating you guys can be a full time job, and most people have more things to do than that. When there are more than 2 or three against one, it is easy to get tripped up. I am not making excuses, I just started going to BB this week.

Lanakila,

You can handle debates if you stick to one topic at a time and actually attempt to address criticisms. Don't run off and start a new topic and then claim that you don't have enough time to finish the previous one. Know your limitations and don't spread yourself too thin. If you're rough on subject matter, I'll be happy to address any questions about genetics and/or evolutionary biology you might have.
 
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Lanakila

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I wasn't making a false claim about time, but thank you. What I meant about time, was it takes time to dig through the information and respond back point by point. That is why I stopped on the no evidence thread. I spent hours already on that discussion, as did my hubby, and he said give it up, they aren't listening, and you don't have time to dig through all the books. See I don't cut and paste from the web, I really do research with actual books in my hand, including Behe, Spetner, Gitt and the others I have put in my bibliography in the past.

My statement about Christian's being primarily creationists is based on experience and since most people I know are Christian Creationists I can make a statement like that. I am the born again type of Christian (fundamentalist) who would consider mainline Protestants and many other claimants to Christianity not actually saved. So my implication was born again, type Christians are primarily Creationists. Sorry, I didn't qualify my statement more clearly before.
 
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Morat

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Ah, yes. The "not a true Christian" bit. Well, as best I can tell, the Catholics view you literalists as horribly misguided, if not out and out idolators. (Biblical idolatry being a sin, you know).

So what goes around, comes around. What I find funny, of course, is that your husband claims we weren't listening to you, but as best I can tell, all my reponses were full of questions you kept refusing to answer and complaints you weren't listening to me. Ironic, at the very least.
 
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Originally posted by Lanakila
I am the born again type of Christian (fundamentalist) who would consider mainline Protestants and many other claimants to Christianity not actually saved. So my implication was born again, type Christians are primarily Creationists. Sorry, I didn't qualify my statement more clearly before. [/B]

heheh. Lanakila knows which of the professing and practicing Christians are "saved." That's good. She can assist Peter at the pearly gates. ;)
 
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I wonder if Keith Miller of Kansas State U is, by Lanakila's criteria, saved...

Simply stated, my position is that there is no inherent conflict between evolutionary theory and a Christian faith with a high view of scripture. By evolution I mean the theory that all living things on Earth are descended from a common ancestor through a continuity of cause-and effect processes. I believe that there are no necessary breaks or gaps in causal explanations. That is, all transitions in the history of life are potentially explicable in terms of "natural" cause-and-effect processes. This theory is no mere guess or hunch, but an extremely well-supported explanation of the observed record of organic change. It has great explanatory power in drawing together an incredibly wide range of data from many disciplines in an explanatory framework. It has been very effective in generating fruitful and testable hypotheses that have driven new discoveries and advanced our scientific understanding of the universe.

I accept the Bible as authoritative and true in what God intends it to communicate. However, simply accepting the truth of the Biblical writings does not indicate the meaning of those writings. Just as our observations of the natural world must be interpreted within some explanatory framework, scripture also must be interpreted. There is no such thing as an objective reading of scripture. The question for the Christian is then - What is the best interpretive framework for any given passage of scripture. I am convinced that the best interpretation of the first chapters of Genesis is a literary one in which neither time nor chronology is part of the intended message.

Finally, I fully and unhesitatingly accept the doctrine of creation. God is the creator of all things and nothing would exist without God's continually willing it to be. God is intimately and actively involved in all natural processes. Every natural process is as much an act of a personal creator as any miracle.

http://www.kcfs.org/kmiller.html
 
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Lanakila

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You ignored the word primarily ( didn't say all). I wouldn't presume to know a persons heart, but the doctrines of a persons church do have something to do with this, you know. This is getting ridiculous.
 
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Originally posted by Lanakila
You ignored the word primarily ( didn't say all). I wouldn't presume to know a persons heart, but the doctrines of a persons church do have something to do with this, you know. This is getting ridiculous.

My parents are born again Christians, and they think acceptance of grace through the atonement of Jesus' death and ressurection has a lot more to do with it than the doctrines of the church.. but then again maybe they aren't "really" saved either..
 
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Originally posted by Lanakila:
I wasn't making a false claim about time, but thank you. What I meant about time, was it takes time to dig through the information and respond back point by point. That is why I stopped on the no evidence thread.

Can you or can’t you address the criticisms of the "no new information" argument?

I spent hours already on that discussion, as did my hubby, and he said give it up, they aren't listening, and you don't have time to dig through all the books.

I’ve also spent hours on it, researching DNA sequences, gene families, and other things. I also tried to make very detailed points about the problems in your argument. It’s not nice for you to simply brush them off then claim that we’re the one’s not paying attention. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe we aren’t buying your argument not because we aren’t listening but because it has some serious flaws that you haven’t addressed.

See I don't cut and paste from the web, I really do research with actual books in my hand, including Behe, Spetner, Gitt and the others I have put in my bibliography in the past.

Well do you happen to use any scientific resources? Any peer-reviewed journal articles perhaps?

My statement about Christian's being primarily creationists is based on experience and since most people I know are Christian Creationists I can make a statement like that.

That of course assumes that the people you know are representative of Christians everywhere. Generalizing from your experiences is as valid as estimating the winner of an election by polling the members of Augusta National Country Club.
 
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