evolution in church

[sfs]

Dr. S, have you thought about posting this to NatSci on TWeb? I think you'd get some interesting comments there.

I haven't been by there much lately, but it's not a bad idea. (And I go by Steve, not doctor, by the way.) We had some grant money from the Templeton Foundation to help support our group and the class, and publicizing our efforts is part of the grant.

 

[juvenissun]

As far as I know, they are consistent. The ministers of the church seem to agree. What do you think is inconsistent about the two?


No. Why do you ask?


I'm not able to interpret what I know in a direction against evolution. Maybe a creationist could, but I've never seen one do it -- I've just seen lots of them ignore what I know, i.e. the evidence.

You seems playing blind on this question. Here it is again:

This is one thing your church believes:

Humanity

We believe that human beings were created by God but we have alienated ourselves from Him and we are in need of reconciliation.

Did you teach that human is (or is likely) evolved, from something non-human?

 

[sfs]

You seems playing blind on this question. Here it is again:

This is one thing your church believes:

Humanity

We believe that human beings were created by God but we have alienated ourselves from Him and we are in need of reconciliation.

Yes, I know that's there. What about it? What does that have to do with whether we evolved?

Did you teach that human is (or is likely) evolved, from something non-human?

Pretty much, yes. After all of the time you've spent here, are you still not aware that Christians who accept evolution still think God created us?

 

[verysincere]

Did you teach that human is (or is likely) evolved, from something non-human?

Why are you concerned about the intermediate steps? Genesis 2:7 says nothing which would deny evolutionary processes:

1) Yes, HADAM came from "something non-human": specifically, "the dust of the ground". [And for an ancient language, "dust of the ground" is quite a good way to refer to the basic chemical elements of the earth's crust. Unlike some ancient traditions, Genesis doesn't say that HADAM came from some magical or exotic material. It describes biological life from non-living ingredients. (In other words, it describes ABIOGENESIS. Of course, unless someone thinks that life has ALWAYS existed, abiogenesis is the logical alternative----so the scriptures and modern science agree that abiogenesis explains the first life.)

2) It doesn't say whether there were intermediate steps or not. It doesn't say anything about the time required. (It certainly doesn't say anything about "instantaneous creation", for that matter.) So Genesis 2:7 is entirely compatible with evolutionary processes over millions of years.

The purpose of Genesis 1 is explaining that God is responsible for everything in creation. It doesn't provide scientific details. So why are you troubled by the idea that God's creation clearly points to evolution as the processes which God used to adapt and diversify life? (Surely you know that "created in the image of God" is a spiritual description, because God is not a biological living being; God is a spirit according to the scriptures.)

So clearly everyone is asking the same question of you: What do you think would be covered in the video which somehow conflicts with the Bible and the church's doctrines? (Yes, I can see how it probably conflicts with your favorite TRADITIONS. But why should that matter? It doesn't conflict with the Bible in any way---or do you think it does? If yes, could you please tell us WHAT is in conflict?)

 

[AV1611VET]

1) Yes, HADAM came from "something non-human": specifically, "the dust of the ground".

Then why is it that when the dust of the ground goes away for good, HADAM [sic] will still be around?

 

[juvenissun]

Yes, I know that's there. What about it? What does that have to do with whether we evolved?


Pretty much, yes. After all of the time you've spent here, are you still not aware that Christians who accept evolution still think God created us?

No I don't.

God does not create us through ameba. God creates Adam. You compromised your faith by your (burnable) work. And you should not promote that in your church.

 

[verysincere]

No I don't.
God does not create us through ameba. God creates Adam.

Considering that the Bible doesn't describe the processes (nor whether or not intermediate forms were involved), why should we be impressed by your claim of what God did and didn't do? Are you an inspired prophet?

Why do you think evolutionary processes somehow contradict God's creation of HADAM? [HADAM is best translated as "the human one" or even "the red-soil man". HADAM= H- ADAM as in "the man" is a description, not a first name per se in the original Hebrew text. Indeed, the Genesis text also refers to Eve under the same HADAM term.]

You compromised your faith by your (burnable) work. And you should not promote that in your church.

How? And why is it OK for YOU to promote your ideas (and pretend they come from the Bible?) Are you in some unique position of authority to determine who violates your cherished traditions and thereby must remain silent in their churches?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why do you think evolutionary processes somehow contradict God's creation of HADAM? [HADAM is best translated as "the human one" or even "the red-soil man". HADAM= H- ADAM as in "the man" is a description, not a first name per se in the original Hebrew text. Indeed, the Genesis text also refers to Eve under the same HADAM term.]

Eve is "the red-soil man"?

 

[sfs]

No I don't.

Of course you know it. You just don't like that we believe it, and so you shut your eyes and ignore reality.

God does not create us through ameba.

Still telling God how to go about his business, I see.

God creates Adam. You compromised your faith by your (burnable) work. And you should not promote that in your church.

Last I checked, our board of elders and our pastoral staff decide what should be promoted in our church. I don't think it likely that they will take your advice. You can't even formulate a coherent reason why you're objecting.

 

[Split Rock]

No I don't.

God does not create us through ameba. God creates Adam. You compromised your faith by your (burnable) work. And you should not promote that in your church.

What do you mean by "burnable" work?

 

[AV1611VET]

What do you mean by "burnable" work?

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Split Rock]

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Thanks... so in other words, "man made." I of course would argue that both the bible and any interpretation of it is equally "burnable." But, you already knew that.

 

[juvenissun]

Thanks... so in other words, "man made." I of course would argue that both the bible and any interpretation of it is equally "burnable." But, you already knew that.

No.

It means work which does not carry any credit to the Heaven. Just like you take a course which has no credit hour.

 

[USincognito]

I haven't been by there much lately, but it's not a bad idea. (And I go by Steve, not doctor, by the way.) We had some grant money from the Templeton Foundation to help support our group and the class, and publicizing our efforts is part of the grant.

Sounds like money well spent both on the part of Templeton and what you guys did with it. If you don't mind I'll do some of the publicity work for you. I've already cross posted a link to the main seminar page to a Facebook group called Celebrating Creation by Natural Selection and I'll post it to TWeb here in a bit. If you want me to take either of those down, or not to post it to the JREF forum, let me know.

 

[verysincere]

No.

It means work which does not carry any credit to the Heaven. Just like you take a course which has no credit hour.

Are your Christian Forums posts in this thread "burnable works"?

Why or why not? (And how do you know?)

And you still haven't yet answered my question as to what elevates you to the level of prophet on these topics?

 

[sfs]

Sounds like money well spent both on the part of Templeton and what you guys did with it. If you don't mind I'll do some of the publicity work for you. I've already cross posted a link to the main seminar page to a Facebook group called Celebrating Creation by Natural Selection and I'll post it to TWeb here in a bit. If you want me to take either of those down, or not to post it to the JREF forum, let me know.

Thanks. That's great -- the more publicity the better.

 

[juvenissun]

Are your Christian Forums posts in this thread "burnable works"?

Why or why not? (And how do you know?)

And you still haven't yet answered my question as to what elevates you to the level of prophet on these topics?

I will respond to whatever you said when it started to make sense.

 

[verysincere]

I will respond to whatever you said when it started to make sense.

Sorry. I over-estimated your reading comprehension skills.

 

[Split Rock]

No.

It means work which does not carry any credit to the Heaven. Just like you take a course which has no credit hour.

Wow... I didn't know one needed credit in heaven. What happens to poor people? Do they go to hell instead?

 

[juvenissun]

Wow... I didn't know one needed credit in heaven. What happens to poor people? Do they go to hell instead?

You are kidding. I thought you know something about Christianity.

Christians are accumulating Heavenly credit on the earth (rich or poor according to earth's standard). The more (unburnable) credits one earned, the better off one will be in the eternity. One does not need any such credit to go to Heaven, but he will be a poor soul in the Heaven.