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Evolution? how about Bull crud!

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Late_Cretaceous

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There are lots of examples of vestigial organs in nature.

Vestigial DOES NOT MEAN USELESS. Vestigial means a "vestage" or small remnant. Many vestigial organs do indeed serve a function, a secondary function - totally unlike the function of the orginal full blown organ they evolved from.

For example, pythons have vestigial legs - tiny spurs where their ancestors' legs used to be. THese spures do aid in locomotion somewhat, but they are not functional as legs.

Another example are the "glass lizards" which have tiny rudimentary legs that really are too small for walking on - and only serve as secondary aids in locomotion. They are vestigial.

How about the wings of flightless birds. They may be used for mating displays or even defence (as in the ostrich), but are totally useless as organs of flight and are therefore vestigial wings.

How about the eyes on eyeless salamanders (olms), they are barely functional enough to register the presence of light, and are reduced to mere pigment spots on the head. They may be able to tell the salamander if it has wandered out of the cave into the light of day, but nothing more. They have no retina, cornea or lens and are vestigial.

How about the human appendix. I am aware there is some debate on whether they are totally uselss or not (they may serve some limited funciton), but they are nevertheless vestigial remnants of our ancestors digetive systems. My own appendix nearly killed me 2 years ago when it ruptured, and after having it removed my digestion has been much better then it ever was. So I have been better off without that piece of evolutionary baggage.

No transitional species? Comeon, the fossil record is full of them. INfact there are even numerous transitionals still living today. Besides, creationist groups such as "Answers In Genesis" have recommended that the "no transitionals" arguement NOT BE USED - because it is simply untrue.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/faq/dont_use.asp

Nice try buck.


p.s. I wish we could have a toilet flushing sound incorporated into these responses every time we dispose of one of these tired and flawed arguments.
 
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notto

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Buck72 said:
Well, I'm certainly no dew-claw expert, other than my own dogs having some problems a time or two, but I will contend that the vestigial organ argument is wrought with frailty. Also dew-claws do not prove that dogs used to be single-celled protozoa.
goalpost.jpg


"Heave!"
 
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Vance

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LOL, Notto, but it might fly right by Buck, since he is new to these boards. Since he is a good guy, and sincere in his desire to discuss these subjects rationally, I will translate just in case.

Notto is pointing out that you are "changing the goalposts". This happens when halfway through a discussion, when an original point is in danger of being proved incorrect, the presenter of that position shifts the "goalposts" to require a different "goal" or specific subject under discussion.

Buck, I would also recommend you head over to the science and evolution board in addition to this one. While there are non-Christians there, there is a LOT of information about many of the things we are discussing here.

Lastly, I would check out this site:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

It goes through each of the Creationist claims and provides some of the most common answers. While it does not always provide what I consider to be the best answers, it is VERY useful in seeing how your arguments are likely to be countered and it saves a lot of time in these discussions. This is not an attempt to convince you that these responses are correct, only to let you know what the responses are. Always useful, you know.
 
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Buck72

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What does 'LOL' mean?

I was making an effort to stay on the subject of evolutionary evidence. Dew claws are a side issue and are not in and of themselves evidence of vestigial organs. Changing the goalposts was not the "goal".

LC is making more sense with his list, too late tonight to answer that one yet.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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Buck72 said:
What does 'LOL' mean?

I was making an effort to stay on the subject of evolutionary evidence. Dew claws are a side issue and are not in and of themselves evidence of vestigial organs. Changing the goalposts was not the "goal".

LC is making more sense with his list, too late tonight to answer that one yet.
But you see, dew claws are vestigal organs. They are what is left of a fifth digit in dogs that is no longer used and if we quit messing with their genetics and were not here to interfere with thier evolution would probably either eventualy dissapear or change into something else.

Not only do dogs have these useless spare fifth toes but so do cats. They are by all definitions vestigal organs.
 
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jay_swift

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I'm a college student at the University of Missouri-Rolla, an engineering school, and I'm writing a paper right now on evolution. If anyone is interested, I will post the rough draft on my website (can be found on my profile - this is my first post) tonight. It disputes the merely scientific aspects of evolution vs. creationism.
 
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