Evolution Denies - Please Refute this

[AV1611VET]

We have the Bible which is man's word versus the facts found in the real world.

But the facts found in the real world lead to different conclusions; that's why there are so many different moon models.

In my opinion, when the Antichrist gets here though, he's going to take those facts and demonstrate how each one is either correct or incorrect; and will change every hypothesis into a theory.

When he is done, there will be no more hypotheses -- only theories.

(I think that's what you guys call the 'Theory of Everything.')

Then Jesus will show up and declare, "My turn!"

I can see it now:

He takes a leading scientist and says, "Come with Me, I'll show you how Creation worked."

"Where are we going?" asks the scientist.

"4004 BC," says Jesus.

 

[Loudmouth]

But the facts found in the real world lead to different conclusions; that's why there are so many different moon models.

They also lead to conclusions such as Thalidomide causing birth defects. So do you reject the conclusion that Thalidomide causes birth defects?

In my opinion, . . .

Once again, we have the opinion of a man versus the facts found in reality.

 

[AV1611VET]

They also lead to conclusions such as Thalidomide causing birth defects.

That came a generation too late, didn't it?

So do you reject the conclusion that Thalidomide causes birth defects?

I side with the demonstrators who [literally] showed the scientists the fruits of their labor.

Once again, we have the opinion of a man versus the facts found in reality.

"Found"?

You mean a generation of real mutants who marched right up in scientists' faces and said, "Look at us! But don't bother weeping, you look just as different!"

 

[Loudmouth]

That came a generation too late, didn't it?

So you accept the results of the scientific method?

I side with the demonstrators who [literally] showed the scientists the fruits of their labor.

Then look at all of the geologists using old earth geology to find oil.

You mean a generation of real mutants who marched right up in scientists' faces and said, "Look at us! But don't bother weeping, you look just as different!"

Those mutations are found in each of our genomes. They are the reason that we are different from chimps, and why both chimps and humans have changed since they split off from a common ancestor. Again, we have the opinion of a man versus the facts found in reality.

 

[AV1611VET]

Those mutations are found in each of our genomes. They are the reason that we are different from chimps, and why both chimps and humans have changed since they split off from a common ancestor.

Is that what the scientists told the grieving mothers?

 

[Loudmouth]

Is that what the scientists told the grieving mothers?

Their children did not die from mutations.

Would you rather tell those mothers that science can take a hike so that no one can ever know what killed their children?

 

[AV1611VET]

Their children did not die from mutations.

It's a good thing, or Thalidomide would have been pulled from the shelves, wouldn't it?

 

[Loudmouth]

It's a good thing, or Thalidomide would have been pulled from the shelves, wouldn't it?

It was the science and facts that led to thalidomide being pulled from shelves, both of which you ignore.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And thalidomide did not cause mutations. It caused birth defects. The birth defects are not congenital and cannot be passed on to the next generation.

If you are going to bring up thalidomide the least you could do is to use the correct terminology.

 

[ThouShaltNotPoe]

It's a good thing, or Thalidomide would have been pulled from the shelves, wouldn't it?

I have no idea what AV1611VET is trying to say. European drug company executives decided to sell Thalidomide as a anti-nausea drug despite a lack of sufficient scientific studies. And a scientist in the U.S. emphatically alerted the FDA *NOT* to approve the drug for general distribution in the U.S.

Seeing how Thalidomide is a reminder to society to LISTEN TO THE SCIENTISTS when they see danger, what is AV1611VET's point????

Is AV1611VET one of those conservative Republicans who say "give free-enterprise total freedom!"?

Do American fundamentalists always endorse unfettered Capitalism? Or is that just a stereotype?

 

[AV1611VET]

It was the science and facts that led to thalidomide being pulled from shelves,

I disagree.

I may be wrong, but I can't picture Thalidomide still on sale, while the scientists investigated it.

 

[AV1611VET]

And thalidomide did not cause mutations. It caused birth defects. The birth defects are not congenital and cannot be passed on to the next generation.

Good point; but here's what I said:

You mean a generation of real mutants who marched right up in scientists' faces and said, "Look at us! But don't bother weeping, you look just as different!"

I was referring, of course, to the chemically-altered fetuses.

If you are going to bring up thalidomide the least you could do is to use the correct terminology.

202, please.

I didn't bring it up this time.

 

[AV1611VET]

Seeing how Thalidomide is a reminder to society to LISTEN TO THE SCIENTISTS when they see danger, what is AV1611VET's point????

Is AV1611VET one of those conservative Republicans who say "give free-enterprise total freedom!"?

I'm trying to decide if you're a newspaper editor, or someone who thinks he's a Sam Kinison.

 

[Loudmouth]

I disagree.

Then please tell us why it got pulled from the shelves. From what I know of history, it was scientists who discovered the link between thalidomide and birth defects using science.

Are you saying that thalidomide was pulled from shelves because someone received a prophetic revelation from a supernatural deity?

 

[ThouShaltNotPoe]

I disagree.

I may be wrong, but I can't picture Thalidomide still on sale, while the scientists investigated it.

If I recall, it was NEVER for general sale in the United States except under very rare, special test conditions.

As I recall, many scientists had warned against it from the beginning---but some European drug companies approved it anyway cuz they wanted the profits.

The early warnings from scientists didn't necessarily know the specifics of how it could be dangerous. (If I remember the medical journals at the time, the concern was altering how the body processes vitamins---so it was feared that Thalidomide couldn't artificially created a kind of "vitamin deficiency" artificially.) I don't think there was SPECIFIC scientific determinations of the birth defect dangers until 1961 (????) until a scientific article blew the siren on a full-fledged warning of dire specific side-effects.

The U.S. was spared major damage because the pharmacy executives were over-powered by the scientiists alerts and caution. But in Europe (and I think Canada), drug-companies were able to pressure government agencies to approve it.

And that is why the moral of the story is LISTEN TO THE SCIENTISTS WHO WANT FULL-SCALE SAFETY TESTING and don't let the non-scientists make the decisions of what is safe!


But will someone please explain to me how this Thalidomide topic relates to evolution debates?

 

[AV1611VET]

Then please tell us why it got pulled from the shelves. From what I know of history, it was scientists who discovered the link between thalidomide and birth defects using science.

Are you saying that thalidomide was pulled from shelves because someone received a prophetic revelation from a supernatural deity?

I don't think it's a matter of why, but when.

Again, I don't know; but my guess is that it was pulled from the shelves before the scientists investigated it.

Or shortly after they started doing so.

 

[AV1611VET]

The U.S. was spared major damage because the pharmacy executives were over-powered by the scientiists alerts and caution. But in Europe (and I think Canada), drug-companies were able to pressure government agencies to approve it.

Riiight --

QV please:

Frances Oldham Kelsey

 

[ThouShaltNotPoe]

I disagree.

I may be wrong, but I can't picture Thalidomide still on sale, while the scientists investigated it.

In the U.S. I recall one particular scientists who LOUDLY told the FDA that they must not succomb to drug company pressures to get them to approve the drug without enough testing. And that is why the U.S. never approved it for general sale.

The politics was different in every country. In some the scientists' concerns won out; in others they did not.

But why doesn't AV1611VET tell us his point? Does he think that aspirin should never have been allowed---because it kills people each and every year. ALL drugs have side-effects along with the intended effects. All are a mixture of effects, "good" and "bad".

Perhaps some scientist could sit down with AV1611 and explain to him the facts of real life.

 

[Loudmouth]

I don't think it's a matter of why, but when.

For someone who constantly harps on science and thalidomide, surely you should know these facts.

The link between birth defects and thalidomide was not known until after the drug was in circulation. Using the SCIENTIFIC METHOD, scientists were able to link the increase in birth defects to thalidomide. Also, the drug was never approved by the FDA in the United States.

 

[ThouShaltNotPoe]

Riiight --

QV please:

Frances Oldham Kelsey

Good to see that AV1611VET will OCCASIONALLY admit that he was wrong.

Science certainly won out in the case of Thalidomide. Those who failed to fully pursue the scientific method saw newborns in some societies pay the price in birth defects.