Evolution and Religion

[Troof]

Based on the history of the OP poster, I'm not going to continue participating in this thread.

It is basically a repeat and it seems that the person posting in the OP will not listen anyway.

You can review this question being answered for Troof in a dozen different ways here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t2427229-prove-evolution-possible.html

Troof will not accept any answer as valid and will continue to argue through assertion.

I suggest that it is you who will not listen.

I am not arguing from assertion. I am arguing from logic, that is quite different.
You on the other hand assert that God exists and will not consider that you might be wrong.

 

[BVZ]

Lets say you are trying to figure out your cars fuel consumption. You take the total litres you used, and divide by the total amount of kilometers driven. (gallons and miles if you use imperial). You now know how effecient your car is.

When doing this calculation, at no point are you using the concept of God or Christ. The act of calculating fuel consumption does not contain any references to God/Christ.

You may believe that it would be impossible to measure your cars effeciency if God/Christ did not exist, because he gives you the power to do so. But this does not change the fact that certain processes we humans use each day do not directly reference spiritual things.

Using these algorithms and processes does not mean that you are not a Christian.

Evolution is much the same. When biologists need to make certain predictions, they use it. (Just like you would use the car effeciency theory to predict how much feul you will be needing when taking a 1000km trip.) Evolution works rather well, since it makes very good predictions. It is true that Evolution does not reference God/Christ or anything spiritual, but neither does mathematics. (And you use mathematics directly and indirectly every day.)

I am sure you can agree that the use of mathematics does not imply that you are not a Christian. In the same way, using Evolution as the tool it is does not imply that you are not a Christian. Sometimes we humans have work to do, and to do it we use the tools we have here on earth.

These tools don't say that God exists, but neither do they say that God does NOT exist. They simply are.

 

[Troof]

Yes.

In varying degrees, though, as all matter is enveloped in the body of God in panentheism or omnipresence but not all matter can respond to God with a will of their own.

For

 

[notto]

I am arguing from logic.

You have demonstrated that this is not the case.

You on the other hand assert that God exists and will not consider that you might be wrong.

And you will not consider that I am right. The main point is, evolution will not help either of us prove our assertions. I admit that I am making assertions that cannot be addressed or examined with science. Will you do the same? That would be the logical thing to do.

 

[stumpjumper]

Consciousness is indeed a hard thing to explain, but just a few decades ago man could not explain how heredity was possible. Why invoke "spirit" to explain something lets just do the science and find out how beings become conscious.

Its not *invoking* spirit to explain something else though. Spirit is just another way of referencing consciousness and the fact that consciousness and matter are tightly intertwined. The materialist position of consciousness being an emergent phenonema does not answer a lot of the questions that Chalmers and others are attempting to answer.

Panspychism does not prove that God is behind consciousness it just states that mind and matter are intertwined and objects to Platonic dualism.

 

[Freodin]

I have recently become convinced that it is completely illogical to believe in a God (or Gods) and accept that evolution is true.

I don´t know you, and so can only guess what this sentence means for your position.

To me it reads as if you recently stopped believing in God/gods, and as a consequence of that change accepted evolution as true.

So that would mean "evolution" is the position that took the place that religion had in your life before.

But that is a wrong view of Evolution. Evolution is a scientific explanation for an observed phenomenon: namely, the change in lifeforms.
Evolution is not a philosophical position about reasons, causes, meanings or goals.

I know that many Christians (and advocates of other religions) accept that evolution is true, but I cannot understand how they manage to do this.

It seems to me that the only way to be both Christian and to accept evolution is to only believe bits of the Christian faith, and/or only accept part of the evolutionary explanation of life on earth.

Can any Christians persuade me that they fully accept the evolutionary explanation of life on earth and still believe in God?

The theistic - not only Christian - position on life on earth is that "Goddidit". God is the cause - the "why".

This basic position does not prescribe any fixed method on the "how".

Theistic Evolutionists believe that God made life on earth - and that he did it by Evolution.

 

[Troof]

You have demonstrated that this is not the case.


And you will not consider that I am right. The main point is, evolution will not help either of us prove our assertions. I admit that I am making assertions that cannot be addressed or examined with science. Will you do the same? That would be the logical thing to do.

I am happy to accept that you may be right, but I would like to see some logical argument to support your assertions. Some scientific evidence would be nice too, but not absolutely necessary.

 

[Troof]

I don´t know you, and so can only guess what this sentence means for your position.

To me it reads as if you recently stopped believing in God/gods, and as a consequence of that change accepted evolution as true.

So that would mean "evolution" is the position that took the place that religion had in your life before.

But that is a wrong view of Evolution. Evolution is a scientific explanation for an observed phenomenon: namely, the change in lifeforms.
Evolution is not a philosophical position about reasons, causes, meanings or goals.


The theistic - not only Christian - position on life on earth is that "Goddidit". God is the cause - the "why".

This basic position does not prescribe any fixed method on the "how".

Theistic Evolutionists believe that God made life on earth - and that he did it by Evolution.

Nice idea, but the logical conclusion from this argument is that he put the matter in place and sat back and did nothing else. Then billions of years later he decided that just one species of life on earth should believe that he exists.

 

[Troof]

I don´t know you, and so can only guess what this sentence means for your position.

To me it reads as if you recently stopped believing in God/gods, and as a consequence of that change accepted evolution as true.

So that would mean "evolution" is the position that took the place that religion had in your life before.

But that is a wrong view of Evolution. Evolution is a scientific explanation for an observed phenomenon: namely, the change in lifeforms.
Evolution is not a philosophical position about reasons, causes, meanings or goals.


The theistic - not only Christian - position on life on earth is that "Goddidit". God is the cause - the "why".

This basic position does not prescribe any fixed method on the "how".

Theistic Evolutionists believe that God made life on earth - and that he did it by Evolution.

Oh by the way I have never believed in God. Evolution isnt replacing religion in my life.

 

[stumpjumper]

I am happy to accept that you may be right, but I would like to see some logical argument to support your assertions. Some scientific evidence would be nice too, but not absolutely necessary.

Scientific evidence for what, though? We can only examine our natural world empirically and science will never tell us the why of existence and does not answer many of the hows as of now either.

I am sure that it will answer more hows in the future but not the why...

 

[coyoteBR]

So God create all the matter in the universe and set the physical and chemical laws by which it would interact and the sat back for billions of years and did nothing until 2000 years ago when he decided that on type of creature on one little planet needed to believe in him so he intervened and gave us Christ.

Is that what you believe?

First, there is much more than only the earth for He To Take Care in the universe.
Second, I believe Jesus Christ was His More Perfect Mensager on This Planet, but there were - and are - others. Moses, Sidartha Gautama, Muhhamed, St. Francis of Assissi, and a multitude of enlighted ones that made their work in humbleness and history did not recorded.
3rd, there's a matter of the spiritual side. I believe God never Stopped Creating Souls.

Yep, plenty of things to Get Him Busy. But the part of Him Creating the matter and the Laws of Nature, yep, you got right about what I believe.

 

[Troof]

I don´t know you, and so can only guess what this sentence means for your position.

To me it reads as if you recently stopped believing in God/gods, and as a consequence of that change accepted evolution as true.

So that would mean "evolution" is the position that took the place that religion had in your life before.

But that is a wrong view of Evolution. Evolution is a scientific explanation for an observed phenomenon: namely, the change in lifeforms.
Evolution is not a philosophical position about reasons, causes, meanings or goals.


The theistic - not only Christian - position on life on earth is that "Goddidit". God is the cause - the "why".

This basic position does not prescribe any fixed method on the "how".

Theistic Evolutionists believe that God made life on earth - and that he did it by Evolution.

Another thing, the whole point about evolution is that it just happens. If it were directed it would behave in a very different way. Of course you could argue that the chemical and physical laws direct it and that these were put in place by God, but that really is clutching at straws.

 

[Freodin]

Nice idea, but the logical conclusion from this argument is that he put the matter in place and sat back and did nothing else. Then billions of years later he decided that just one species of life on earth should believe that he exists.

No, it isn´t.

The "logical" conclusion is that Evolution (and physics, chemistry and whatelse) is the way God works.

As you type your response to my post by using your fingers, your keyboard and your internet connection, so God does use the tools that he created.

 

[Troof]

Scientific evidence for what, though? We can only examine our natural world empirically and science will never tell us the why of existence and does not answer many of the hows as of now either.

I am sure that it will answer more hows in the future but not the why...

There is no why!!! There is only how!!! It happens because it happens. Why do you need more than that?

 

[Troof]

No, it isn´t.

The "logical" conclusion is that Evolution (and physics, chemistry and whatelse) is the way God works.

As you type your response to my post by using your fingers, your keyboard and your internet connection, so God does use the tools that he created.

Making God a part of creation!? So what created God?

 

[Freodin]

Another thing, the whole point about evolution is that it just happens. If it were directed it would behave in a very different way. Of course you could argue that the chemical and physical laws direct it and that these were put in place by God, but that really is clutching at straws.

Again wrong. It is the "how" of Evolution that "just happens" - not the "why".

There are a lot of Christians who would agree with you: the literalists and creationists who claim that "God would never ever act in this way!"

But a lot of people have understood that not knowing why something happens does not mean that it does not happen.

 

[stumpjumper]

There is no why!!! There is only how!!! It happens because it happens. Why do you need more than that?

In your opinion there is no why. That's fine with me but that is a subjective opinion not an objective fact.

I don't *need* an answer to the why, I just believe that there is an answer to the why and I'm not finding it in your posts

 

[Freodin]

Making God a part of creation!? So what created God?

That is completely different question, and as invalid as creationists non-sequitur of "Evolution does not explain how the universe started."

You misunderstood my post. You agree that you post in the way I described, don´t you?

So does that mean that "you" sat back, and did nothing, while your fingers, your keyboard and the internet did all the work?

No, this is just the way it works. And in the same way it is possible that the whole universe is just the way God works.

NOTE: if you look at my faith-icon, you will see that I am an Atheist. I don´t believe in God, I don´t believe that Evolution and Physics is "the way God works".

But I admit that it is possible. Why can´t you?

 

[Tomk80]

I would love to explain in full, but it would take several hundred pages or more.

I can live with a short summary.

I'm interested in whether Christians accept evolution in full and Christianity in full. I dont think you can do both, but you can accept bits of each without contradiction.

So what do you mean with 'accepting christianity in full'? How do you describe christianity in this regard? Is there a specific denomination you're thinking of that is 'accepting christianity in full' or is there some general belief that you want to have addressed?

 

[h2whoa]

AS a former Christian evolutionist I saw it like this:

Genesis works very well as an allegory. Metaphorically it tells us that humanity separates itself from the perfection of God through the selfish decisions that we all make. Adam and Eve were figurative but the story works just as well. We distance ourselves from God by making certain decision and performing certain actions, symbolised by disobeying God and eating the forbidden fruit.

Even though I am now an atheist, I have no problem with Christians who hold to this or some similar view.