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Evolution and Genesis account of creation

JacksBratt

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do you think corn is a close relative to wheat within the grasses . There are about 780 genera in the grasses . Maybe you need to look up information about grasses before you make such silly statements . 780genera not Species
Yep, lot's of grasses,

Lots of dogs

Lots of cats

Lots of snakes

Lots of whales

Lots of lots of kinds of animals.

Absolutely no evidence of a frog.. turning into a rabbit.
Or a lizard turning into a falcon.

Just bones.... bones turned to stone... bones that say.. this animal lived and died.. nothing about it's parents, how many brothers or sisters it had.. what it's parents were or it's great great grandparents were, whether it had offspring and what it's offspring became..

Just a static bone.. that once lived.

Then came men and they said "this bone comes from an animal that was once a different animal".

Then they take different parts of different animal bones and file some teeth.. glue some other parts and present it a fact.

Then, they take one tooth and build a huge fabricated being from it.. only to find out that it was the tooth of a pig.

For goodness sake, these people must be great at huge puzzles with all the pieces... they can take half a puzzle piece and predict the entire finished product.. without knowing what it was from in the first place.


One thing is for sure, however, it will line up perfectly with the evolutionary Darwinian atheistic mandate that there is no need for God.
 
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The Barbarian

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Luke 3:23-38 gives the lineage of Christ: "Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of... Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God."

Whoa whoa whoa, the son of who? Adam?? If Adam is a metaphor then this whole lineage is a bunch of nonsense. Apparently at the time Luke 3:23-38 was written, the prevalent belief was that Adam was real.

The problem, if you take this to be literally true, is that there are two such lineages for Jesus, and they don't agree with each other.
 
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The Barbarian

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Absolutely no evidence of a frog.. turning into a rabbit.
Or a lizard turning into a falcon.

Creationists do this out of habit, I guess. "Evolution is false unless you can show me something happening that is contrary to evolution."

I never know whether it's out of ignorance or deviousness.

Anyway, if wheat and emmer means "they are still grasses." Humans and other apes mean "they are still hominins."
 
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The Barbarian

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Just bones.... bones turned to stone... bones that say.. this animal lived and died.. nothing about it's parents, how many brothers or sisters it had.. what it's parents were or it's great great grandparents were, whether it had offspring and what it's offspring became.

So if you find a bone in the grass, you can't know what kind of animal it was, if you didn't know all of its immediate family? How... odd.

Then came men and they said "this bone comes from an animal that was once a different animal".

How does an animal once become a different animal? One of the reasons you don't like evolutionary theory, is you have no idea what it is.

Then they take different parts of different animal bones and file some teeth.. glue some other parts and present it a fact.

No. If you notice in the literature, they present reconstructions with the missing bones shaded so you know they are hypothesized. The funny thing is, most often, when the missing parts are located, sometimes even for that very individual, the hypothesis is pretty good. Occasionally, it turns out to be different, like Pakicetus, where a very whale-like skull was part of an animal that still had legs.

Then, they take one tooth and build a huge fabricated being from it.. only to find out that it was the tooth of a pig.

Except they didn't. You got a garbled retelling of the way a dinosaur expert found a tooth that looked like a primate tooth, but was told by mammal experts that it was from a javelina (peccary) that was oddly worn in a way to look like that of a primate. But he didn't reconstruct a body from a single tooth. They lied to you about that.

One thing is for sure, however, it will line up perfectly with the evolutionary Darwinian atheistic mandate that there is no need for God.

They lied to you about that, too. Darwin, for example, thought that God just created the first living things.

Would you like me to show you that?
 
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The Barbarian

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Because nobody has seen wheat grow legs, evolution must be false!

Be careful. A reasonably-intelligent person might know you were joking, but you're likely to be quoted on that by a creationist.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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There is nothing inconsistent in my understanding. You suggested I don't believe scripture. This is untrue. However, our interpretations differ.

You claim that, but aren't you the one who said there are three different sets of Ten Commandments? Yet, Jesus didn't seem to be confused about what the Ten Commandments were, based on the New Testament Scripture. And, you are the one who claimed that the Genesis account was made up later, did you not? How is that a "believing in the Scriptures" interpretation? What do you actually believe about them that brings life and not disbelief to others? You were supporting someone who doesn't believe that Christian Scriptures are more than a fairy tale. So, what exactly do you stand for in the Scriptures and how can you, based on your responses so far?
 
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JackRT

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You claim that, but aren't you the one who said there are three different sets of Ten Commandments? Yet, Jesus didn't seem to be confused about what the Ten Commandments were, based on the New Testament Scripture. And, you are the one who claimed that the Genesis account was made up later, did you not? How is that a "believing in the Scriptures" interpretation? What do you actually believe about them that brings life and not disbelief to others? You were supporting someone who doesn't believe that Christian Scriptures are more than a fairy tale. So, what exactly do you stand for in the Scriptures and how can you, based on your responses so far?

A great many Christians are under the impression that our scriptures were written in the same order in which they now appear in the canon. These documents have been exhaustively studied by a great many biblical scholars particularly in the last two centuries. The large majority of these scholars, both conservative and liberal, now agree with what has come to be called "the documentary hypothesis" when dealing with the Torah.

In the late 1800s, a group of scholars in Germany led by Professors K. H. Graf and Julius Wellhausen began to study rigorously the details of the first five books of the Bible – Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. These books, called the Torah or the Books of Moses, constitute the most sacred part of the Hebrew Scriptures and were traditionally required by the Jews to be read in their entirety on the Sabbaths of a single year in the synagogues of the Jewish world. These scholars began to apply to these texts the insights of literary criticism. The results were salutary and more than anything else opened the doors to a new academic interest in the Bible itself.

Analyzing these texts carefully, these scholars discovered that there were many observable differences that could be noted which led them to the conclusion that the Torah consisted of several strands of what had once been independent material. One strand referred to God by the name Yahweh, or at least by an unpronounceable set of consonants that were written as YHWH, and it called the holy mountain of the Jews Mt. Sinai. Another strand of material called God by the name of Elohim and it called the holy mountain Mt. Horeb. A third strand of material reflected life in the Kingdom of Judah in the seventh century. Still another strand appeared to be dated during the time of the Exile and perhaps even later. When they began to separate these strands from one another, other insights became available.

These four strands are termed, in the order mentioned above, as J or Jahwist, E or Elohist, D or Deuteronomist and P or Priestly. These four strands were cut and pasted into a new document by R or Redactor (Editor) at some point late in the Exile or shortly after. All of this leads to modern confusion because the subject matter of the different strands is frequently similar but is handled quite differently.

There are contradictions found in the three versions of the Ten Commandments contained in the Bible (Exodus 34:1-28, Exodus 20:1-17, Deuteronomy 5:1-21). The three versions are not the same. Exodus 34, the oldest version at about 950 BC, is from the pen of the "J" or Jahwist writer and is not one of which many have ever heard. The final commandment in this earliest version reads "You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk." Why, we are led to wonder, was this original set of Ten Commandments rejected or replaced? The second version Exodus 20, from about 850 BC, was from the pen of the "E" or Elohist writer, but was greatly expanded about 560 BC by a group of people called the "P" or priestly writers. Did these writers, who added so much to the entire body of the Jewish Scriptures, do so because they judged the original version to be so woefully inadequate that it required major additions and editing? Does one alter or tamper with what one believes to be "The Word of God?" The third version, Deuteronomy 5 in about 625 BC, was from the pen of the "D" or Deuteronomic writers composed somewhere between the original writing of Exodus 20 and the expansion done on that same text some 400 or so years later. For example, the version in Deuteronomy did not offer as the reason the Sabbath must be observed the fact that God rested on the Sabbath, for the version of that seven day creation story had not yet been written. So this author states that the Sabbath is to be observed because the people of Israel must remember that they were once slaves in Egypt and even slaves must have a day of rest. Which of these versions of the Ten Commandments, we might ask, can qualify as "The Word of God?"

Much later in the Old Testament Micah seems to summarize the commandments into just three:

Micah 6:8 --- And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

Looking ahead into the New Testament we find:

Mark 10:19 --- Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Here Jesus only lists six of the ten. When we look at the other two synoptic gospels we quickly note that "Defraud not" is not on Matthew's and Luke's list of Jesus' commandments. We also note Jesus' famous summary of the commandments down to just two:

Matthew 22: 35-40 --- One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
 
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stevevw

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First off, I'm glad I found a forum specifically dedicated to this topic. Its something that I've been wanting to discuss.

How do you line up Evolution with what the Bible says in Genesis about creation.
Some Christians say Genesis should not be read literally or that its like a parable or allegory. And the language used in Genesis is written in a poetic way, similar to Psalms.

To me if evolution is fact then Adam evolved and there was no garden of eden or where did original sin occur and hence the remainder of Bible story does not line up or Jesus being crucified for mankind's 'original sin'

Interested to hear you ideas.
My advice is to keep an open mind. I do not think salvation is dependent on whether Genesis literal or not or whether evolution is true or not. There can be some truth in the middle and both may have aspects that are correct. What is important is that the divine message is true and relevant which is about God's relationship with us. It could be that Adam and Eve are real people that all people are descendants from in a spiritual sense. If evolution is true this does not diminish that possibility because it may be that humans evolved to a point where they were aware of God and sin and this was their spiritual awakening. At the same time I recognise that there are some aspects in the Bible like the geneology from Jesus to Adam which make Adam real and the time line relatively short. I really do not know and therefore I keep an open mind but do believe that Jesus is our redeemer and we are only saved through Grace by him. That is what is important and I do not think someone will be denied salvation because they got the Creation story wrong.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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A great many Christians are under the impression that our scriptures were written in the same order in which they now appear in the canon. These documents have been exhaustively studied by a great many biblical scholars particularly in the last two centuries. The large majority of these scholars, both conservative and liberal, now agree with what has come to be called "the documentary hypothesis" when dealing with the Torah.

In the late 1800s, a group of scholars in Germany led by Professors K. H. Graf and Julius Wellhausen began to study rigorously the details of the first five books of the Bible – Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. These books, called the Torah or the Books of Moses, constitute the most sacred part of the Hebrew Scriptures and were traditionally required by the Jews to be read in their entirety on the Sabbaths of a single year in the synagogues of the Jewish world. These scholars began to apply to these texts the insights of literary criticism. The results were salutary and more than anything else opened the doors to a new academic interest in the Bible itself.

Analyzing these texts carefully, these scholars discovered that there were many observable differences that could be noted which led them to the conclusion that the Torah consisted of several strands of what had once been independent material. One strand referred to God by the name Yahweh, or at least by an unpronounceable set of consonants that were written as YHWH, and it called the holy mountain of the Jews Mt. Sinai. Another strand of material called God by the name of Elohim and it called the holy mountain Mt. Horeb. A third strand of material reflected life in the Kingdom of Judah in the seventh century. Still another strand appeared to be dated during the time of the Exile and perhaps even later. When they began to separate these strands from one another, other insights became available.

These four strands are termed, in the order mentioned above, as J or Jahwist, E or Elohist, D or Deuteronomist and P or Priestly. These four strands were cut and pasted into a new document by R or Redactor (Editor) at some point late in the Exile or shortly after. All of this leads to modern confusion because the subject matter of the different strands is frequently similar but is handled quite differently.

There are contradictions found in the three versions of the Ten Commandments contained in the Bible (Exodus 34:1-28, Exodus 20:1-17, Deuteronomy 5:1-21). The three versions are not the same. Exodus 34, the oldest version at about 950 BC, is from the pen of the "J" or Jahwist writer and is not one of which many have ever heard. The final commandment in this earliest version reads "You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk." Why, we are led to wonder, was this original set of Ten Commandments rejected or replaced? The second version Exodus 20, from about 850 BC, was from the pen of the "E" or Elohist writer, but was greatly expanded about 560 BC by a group of people called the "P" or priestly writers. Did these writers, who added so much to the entire body of the Jewish Scriptures, do so because they judged the original version to be so woefully inadequate that it required major additions and editing? Does one alter or tamper with what one believes to be "The Word of God?" The third version, Deuteronomy 5 in about 625 BC, was from the pen of the "D" or Deuteronomic writers composed somewhere between the original writing of Exodus 20 and the expansion done on that same text some 400 or so years later. For example, the version in Deuteronomy did not offer as the reason the Sabbath must be observed the fact that God rested on the Sabbath, for the version of that seven day creation story had not yet been written. So this author states that the Sabbath is to be observed because the people of Israel must remember that they were once slaves in Egypt and even slaves must have a day of rest. Which of these versions of the Ten Commandments, we might ask, can qualify as "The Word of God?"

Much later in the Old Testament Micah seems to summarize the commandments into just three:

Micah 6:8 --- And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

Looking ahead into the New Testament we find:

Mark 10:19 --- Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Here Jesus only lists six of the ten. When we look at the other two synoptic gospels we quickly note that "Defraud not" is not on Matthew's and Luke's list of Jesus' commandments. We also note Jesus' famous summary of the commandments down to just two:

Matthew 22: 35-40 --- One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

So, men in the 1800's suddenly became smarter than those closer to when Jesus was here. They figured out what nobody else could figure out. Just like unbelieving scientists today have believed we evolved from apes and therefore we should believe that. Again, you can put your belief in man if you want. I'm keeping mine in God.

Frankly though, "the order" doesn't matter. It is whether what we are given is Truth or not that is under fire. If Genesis had been written after Revelation under the inspiration of God, that Book would not be any less true than if it was the first, fifth or tenth Book written.
 
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JackRT

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So, men in the 1800's suddenly became smarter than those closer to when Jesus was here. They figured out what nobody else could figure out. Just like unbelieving scientists today have believed we evolved from apes and therefore we should believe that. Again, you can put your belief in man if you want. I'm keeping mine in God.

Frankly though, "the order" doesn't matter. It is whether what we are given is Truth or not that is under fire. If Genesis had been written after Revelation under the inspiration of God, that Book would not be any less true than if it was the first, fifth or tenth Book written.

No, they didn't suddenly become smarter in 1800. What did happen was that church control of thought was considerably weakened to the point where some brave men were actually allowed to think and question.
 
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Brightmoon

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Yep, lot's of grasses,

Lots of dogs

Lots of cats

Lots of snakes

Lots of whales

Lots of lots of kinds of animals.

Absolutely no evidence of a frog.. turning into a rabbit.
Or a lizard turning into a falcon.

Just bones.... bones turned to stone... bones that say.. this animal lived and died.. nothing about it's parents, how many brothers or sisters it had.. what it's parents were or it's great great grandparents were, whether it had offspring and what it's offspring became..

Just a static bone.. that once lived.

Then came men and they said "this bone comes from an animal that was once a different animal".

Then they take different parts of different animal bones and file some teeth.. glue some other parts and present it a fact.

Then, they take one tooth and build a huge fabricated being from it.. only to find out that it was the tooth of a pig.

For goodness sake, these people must be great at huge puzzles with all the pieces... they can take half a puzzle piece and predict the entire finished product.. without knowing what it was from in the first place.


One thing is for sure, however, it will line up perfectly with the evolutionaryrabbits Darwinian atheistic mandate that there is no need for God.
. Frogs never become rabbits and lizards never become birds . You’ve demonstrated that you’ve got a poor understanding of evolution and of some basic genealogical lineages. Also science only deals with natural phenomena and natural processes so why are you bringing religious beliefs or the lack thereof, into this ? Your misconceptions of a major science theory don’t negate the theory!
 
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The Barbarian

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You claim that, but aren't you the one who said there are three different sets of Ten Commandments? Yet, Jesus didn't seem to be confused about what the Ten Commandments were, based on the New Testament Scripture. And, you are the one who claimed that the Genesis account was made up later, did you not? How is that a "believing in the Scriptures" interpretation? What do you actually believe about them that brings life and not disbelief to others? You were supporting someone who doesn't believe that Christian Scriptures are more than a fairy tale. So, what exactly do you stand for in the Scriptures and how can you, based on your responses so far?

It's a little more complex that most people think:
The Ten Commandments: Different Versions (The Prayer Foundation)
 
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NobleMouse

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. Frogs never become rabbits and lizards never become birds . You’ve demonstrated that you’ve got a poor understanding of evolution and of some basic genealogical lineages. Also science only deals with natural phenomena and natural processes so why are you bringing religious beliefs or the lack thereof, into this ? Your misconceptions of a major science theory don’t negate the theory!
What @JacksBratt wrote was not intended to be a literal sequence of the hypothesis of evolution. With him having over 8,000 posts here in CF, I'm certain he's been around enough to know that the assertion by evolution is that life originated in water, that fish started to grow legs and became tetrapods that later became reptiles, from which birds and mammals evolved. Yes... we ALL know the story.

1 Corinthians 15:39; however, indicates this is not the view by NT authors, let alone the fact that Genesis clearly indicates these different life forms were made distinctly and directly by God on days 5 and 6 of creation (with birds coming before the beasts of the field).

Also, science does not have the proprietary right to explaining origins - this is GOD'S creation and HE gets to tell how HE did it. So, the Bible gets a seat at the table as far as origins goes, in fact, it sits at the head of the table.
 
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Brightmoon

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What @JacksBratt wrote was not intended to be a literal sequence of the hypothesis of evolution. With him having over 8,000 posts here in CF, I'm certain he's been around enough to know that the assertion by evolution is that life originated in water, that fish started to grow legs and became tetrapods that later became reptiles, from which birds and mammals evolved. Yes... we ALL know the story.

1 Corinthians 15:39; however, indicates this is not the view by NT authors, let alone the fact that Genesis clearly indicates these different life forms were made distinctly and directly by God on days 5 and 6 of creation (with birds coming before the beasts of the field).

Also, science does not have the proprietary right to explaining origins - this is GOD'S creation and HE gets to tell how HE did it. So, the Bible gets a seat at the table as far as origins goes, in fact, it sits at the head of the table.
. In science, as far as evidential verification is concerned, the bible doesn’t even have a toe in the room let alone a seat at the table ( to use your metaphor ) . Creation myths are sociologically and psychologically interesting but not explanatory for natural phenomena . Which is why scientists don’t bother with them.

Since Jack wanted to question evolution why would he put out a ridiculous parody of evolution knowing that there are real scientists on these boards who do study evolution. The real thing not creationists misunderstandings of it. Since I thought that he was one of those creationists who learn creation science versions of evolution, I corrected him. There are too many people who learn ridiculous pseudoscience ideas about the work scientists do for me to let that go.
 
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NobleMouse

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. In science, as far as evidential verification is concerned, the bible doesn’t even have a toe in the room let alone a seat at the table ( to use your metaphor ) . Creation myths are sociologically and psychologically interesting but not explanatory for natural phenomena . Which is why scientists don’t bother with them.
... and is why secular scientists keep changing their story - the basis by which they build their truth is not founded on God's word. Creation scientists don't know the specifics either, but ultimately know that the findings will support what the Bible states. Did you know are the result of an imagination, created by way of a myth?

Since Jack wanted to question evolution why would he put out a ridiculous parody of evolution knowing that there are real scientists on these boards who do study evolution. The real thing not creationists misunderstandings of it. Since I thought that he was one of those creationists who learn creation science versions of evolution, I corrected him. There are too many people who learn ridiculous pseudoscience ideas about the work scientists do for me to let that go.
Evolution IS a parody. "Real" scientists (those with say a PhD in a scientific field of study from an accredited university, applying the scientific method, doing research, publishing findings, attending scientific consortiums, etc...) exist in both mainstream science as well as creation science.
 
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JackRT

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Evolution IS a parody. "Real" scientists (those with say a PhD in a scientific field of study from an accredited university, applying the scientific method, doing research, publishing findings, attending scientific consortiums, etc...) exist in both mainstream science as well as creation science.

Claim:

“Many scientists reject evolution and support creationism.” --- Morris, Henry. 1980. The ICR scientists. Impact 86 (Aug.). *http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=163

Response:

Of the scientists and engineers in the United States, only about 5% are creationists, according to a 1991 Gallup poll (Robinson 1995, Witham 1997). However, this number includes those working in fields not related to life origins (such as computer scientists, mechanical engineers, etc.). Taking into account only those working in the relevant fields of earth and life sciences, there are about 480,000 scientists, but only about 700 believe in "creation-science" or consider it a valid theory (Robinson 1995). This means that less than 0.15 percent of relevant scientists believe in creationism. And that is just in the United States, which has more creationists than any other industrialized country. In other countries, the number of relevant scientists who accept creationism drops to less than one tenth of 1 percent.

Additionally, many scientific organizations believe the evidence so strongly that they have issued public statements to that effect (NCSEd). The National Academy of Sciences, one of the most prestigious science organizations, devotes a Web site to the topic (NAS 1999). A panel of seventy-two Nobel Laureates, seventeen state academies of science, and seven other scientific organizations created an amicus curiae brief which they submitted to the Supreme Court (Edwards v. Aguillard 1986). This report clarified what makes science different from religion and why creationism is not science.


One needs to examine not how many scientists and professors believe something, but what their conviction is based upon. Most of those who reject evolution do so because of personal religious conviction, not because of evidence. The evidence supports evolution. And the evidence, not personal authority, is what objective conclusions should be based on.

Often, claims that scientists reject evolution or support creationism are exaggerated or fraudulent. Many scientists doubt some aspects of evolution, especially recent hypotheses about it. All good scientists are skeptical about evolution (and everything else) and open to the possibility, however remote, that serious challenges to it may appear. Creationists frequently seize such expressions of healthy skepticism to imply that evolution is highly questionable. They fail to understand that the fact that evolution has withstood many years of such questioning really means it is about as certain as facts can get.
 
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Brightmoon

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Secular scientists don’t change their stories. The press gets the story wrong and leaves out important details . Creationist publications do this on purpose as they want people to criticise evolution without actually understanding it.
 
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The Barbarian

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What @JacksBratt wrote was not intended to be a literal sequence of the hypothesis of evolution.

It was the usual ignorant stuff about how evolution is supposed to work. A few creationists know better and just dishonestly present it like that. But I think JacksBratt honestly believes it's like that.

So, the Bible gets a seat at the table as far as origins goes, in fact, it sits at the head of the table.

It's the YE revision of the Bible that doesn't have a place.
 
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Brightmoon

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... and is why secular scientists keep changing their story - the basis by which they build their truth is not founded on God's word. Creation scientists don't know the specifics either, but ultimately know that the findings will support what the Bible states. Did you know are the result of an imagination, created by way of a myth?


( snip)
if creationists were truly concerned about the Truth then they would accept evolution and the old age of the universe and of the earth. This is the reason my church accepts mainstream science. Natural phenomena aka God’s Creation doesn’t support the bible stories at all.
 
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Brightmoon

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JackRT ‘s post was too polite to mention it but creation scientists are considered to be crackpots . No one pays attention to them and they have to publish in creationist publications.

That info is years old so the numbers of creationist life scientists might have gone down from .15%. That does mean that 99.85% of life scientists accept evolution
 
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