Evolution and Genesis account of creation

[misput]

I understand what you are saying...

The text "flowing with milk and honey" is figurative.

The texts below are not. God went out of His way to make it quite clear that it was six days..

"there was evening and morning.. the first day", "there was evening and morning.. the second day","there was evening and morning.. the third day", "there was evening and morning.. the fourth day", "there was evening and morning.. the fifth day","there was evening and morning.. the sixth day"

That is fine but there is a bit more too it. For instance, on the 7th day God rested. Heb. 3&4 informs us the day is on going and refers to it figuratively as today, entering into Gods rest, day of salvation. So if this "day" is thousands of years long, why not the others? Another instance is the word day in the original language can be interpreted age as well as several other ways. There are several other problems with holding to a literal view. Many believe it is safer to interpret every thing literal unless it obviously is not, as in your example above "flowing with milk and honey" but I believe we cut our self off from a deeper understanding when we do that. For instance, I believe I have a much deeper understanding of what the sabbath is really all about, why it was so important as to be made one of the 10 commandments, why God would condone putting a man to death for breaking it. How we can break the sabbath, by rebelling against God, realizing every day is a sabbath day, a day of entering or remaining in Gods rest of salvation.

 

[JacksBratt]

That is fine but there is a bit more too it. For instance, on the 7th day God rested. Heb. 3&4 informs us the day is on going and refers to it figuratively as today, entering into Gods rest, day of salvation. So if this "day" is thousands of years long, why not the others? Another instance is the word day in the original language can be interpreted age as well as several other ways. There are several other problems with holding to a literal view. Many believe it is safer to interpret every thing literal unless it obviously is not, as in your example above "flowing with milk and honey" but I believe we cut our self off from a deeper understanding when we do that. For instance, I believe I have a much deeper understanding of what the sabbath is really all about, why it was so important as to be made one of the 10 commandments, why God would condone putting a man to death for breaking it. How we can break the sabbath, by rebelling against God, realizing every day is a sabbath day, a day of entering or remaining in Gods rest of salvation.

Maybe you could be a bit more specific as to the scripture you are referring to about the last day being 1000 years and the seventh day lasting forever. Then I could comment more specifically.

The bible is pretty simple.. you can read it as a child and understand it. Or, you can earn a doctorate for diving in to the layers of details.

I have read the bible and on the fundamental level... all the days of creation are literal days. With fabricating and twisting and adding details that are not corresponding to the creation days.. you could whip up anything to appease yourself and put the square peg of evolution into the round hole of God's six days of creation.

This is not what I see. What I see is clearly "There was evening, there was morning" That's pretty clearly an earth day. Not only that, but we pattern our week "six days then rest" after this foundational fact.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

First off, I'm glad I found a forum specifically dedicated to this topic. Its something that I've been wanting to discuss.

How do you line up Evolution with what the Bible says in Genesis about creation.
Some Christians say Genesis should not be read literally or that its like a parable or allegory. And the language used in Genesis is written in a poetic way, similar to Psalms.

To me if evolution is fact then Adam evolved and there was no garden of eden or where did original sin occur and hence the remainder of Bible story does not line up or Jesus being crucified for mankind's 'original sin'

Interested to hear you ideas.

I believe what God said. I don't believe man, no matter how much more intelligent he thinks he became than God.

 

[trophy33]

I believe what God said. I don't believe man, no matter how much more intelligent he thinks he became than God.

You did not hear God saying it. You use a book some man gave/sold to you.

Bible is not God. Also, your understanding of what you read is not necessarily what was originally meant.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

You did not hear God saying it. You use a book some man gave/sold to you.

Bible is not God.

First, let me say that I agree with you that God is not the Bible. Second, I agree with you that I did not hear God speak Genesis to me, personally. However, just because you have little regard for the Christian Scriptures doesn't make What they say or what I said any less True.

Unlike you, I believe the New Testament Scriptures, because God--who didn't have to and despite my unbelief that He did such a thing--woke me up through listening to those Scriptures. So, contrary to you, I know that the Bible is more than a book. I can see why when I spend time in the Scriptures. Jesus said: "My Words are Spirit and They are Life." (John 6:63). Interestingly, what happened to me is only confirmation of what God says in the Scriptures: "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God." (Romans 10:17) and "The Word of God is living and active and sharper than a two-edged sword...." (Hebrews 4:12) And, while the New Testament list goes on, that also doesn't include any of the Old Testament Scriptures that speak to the power of God's Word or how God watches over His Word (promises) to perform the Word. Since Jesus quoted from and acknowledged the Old Testament Scriptures--including Genesis--as if they were fact, not fantasy, I choose to believe my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ over you and anyone else who thinks they know better than Him.

You are free to live in your unbelief. You are free to reject what the Scriptures say. God affords you that option. But, you won't pull me back to your darkness. Darkness had its way in me for too long before God woke me up. I used to believe all those lies, just out of blind trust of teachers and fake scientists.

 

[trophy33]

But, you won't pull me back to your darkness. Darkness had its way in me for too long before God woke me up. I used to believe all those lies, just out of blind trust of teachers and fake scientists.

Truth is not darkness. There are spiritual truths and truths about the world we live in.

God woke you up to spiritual truths. He is not your biology teacher.

I am afraid you were woke up to spiritual truths, but put to sleep regarding the physical world.

 

[JacksBratt]

First, let me say that I agree with you that God is not the Bible. Second, I agree with you that I did not hear God speak Genesis to me, personally. However, just because you have little regard for the Christian Scriptures doesn't make What they say or what I said any less True.

Unlike you, I believe the New Testament Scriptures, because God--who didn't have to and despite my unbelief that He did such a thing--woke me up through listening to those Scriptures. So, contrary to you, I know that the Bible is more than a book. I can see why when I spend time in the Scriptures. Jesus said: "My Words are Spirit and They are Life." (John 6:63). Interestingly, what happened to me is only confirmation of what God says in the Scriptures: "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God." (Romans 10:17) and "The Word of God is living and active and sharper than a two-edged sword...." (Hebrews 4:12) And, while the New Testament list goes on, that also doesn't include any of the Old Testament Scriptures that speak to the power of God's Word or how God watches over His Word (promises) to perform the Word. Since Jesus quoted from and acknowledged the Old Testament Scriptures--including Genesis--as if they were fact, not fantasy, I choose to believe my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ over you and anyone else who thinks they know better than Him.

You are free to live in your unbelief. You are free to reject what the Scriptures say. God affords you that option. But, you won't pull me back to your darkness. Darkness had its way in me for too long before God woke me up. I used to believe all those lies, just out of blind trust of teachers and fake scientists.

Well said....

The bible, written over centuries by many different authors, still has continuity of theme and all books fit together as if written by one... which they were.. They are the written words of our God... as He inspired men to write them for Him.

Soon as you start to believe the words of mortal men... over the inspired word of God... it is a slippery slope to unbelief.

Every Christian believes this:

John 20:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Why is it acceptable to disregard this?

Exodus 20:11
"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

 

[trophy33]

Why is it acceptable to disregard this?

Exodus 20:11
"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Can you actually prove this sentence was in the original and is not just a later Jewish commentary?

Because on another place of the Bible, the basis for keeping the Sabbath is not the creation week.

 

[JackRT]

Can you actually prove this sentence was in the original and is not just a later Jewish commentary?

Because on another place of the Bible, the basis for keeping the Sabbath is not the creation week.

Quite right! The commandments version in Deuteronomy did not offer as the reason the Sabbath must be observed the fact that God rested on the Sabbath, for the version of that seven day creation story had not yet been written. So this author states that the Sabbath is to be observed because the people of Israel must remember that they were once slaves in Egypt and even slaves must have a day of rest. It is worthwhile noting that there are three versions of the ten commandments(Exodus 34:1-28, Exodus 20:1-17, Deuteronomy 5:1-21) written by several different authors over a time period of over 300 years.

 

[NobleMouse]

. You’ve just demonstrated that you know absolutely nothing about evolutionary processes. Instead of this silly strawman creationist version why don’t you find out what scientists really say about evolution and/or common descent and the evidence for it.

Creationists have their own silly version of evolution and real scientists don’t use that creationist version.

"real scientists" have never observed what they say evolution is... which is not real science.

When evolution falls into the realm of observational science then the concrete claims that observational science can make can be applied. Until then, evolution remains an unsupported hypothesis. I think I'll call it the UHoE instead of ToE as that is more fitting.

Thanks

 

[JacksBratt]

Can you actually prove this sentence was in the original and is not just a later Jewish commentary?

Because on another place of the Bible, the basis for keeping the Sabbath is not the creation week.

I understand the point that you are making. My point was not in regards to the sabbath and keeping it holy.. it was about the six days...

You can argue all you want about the reasons behind the sabbath...That is another thread to post.

My argument is that you are all fine in accepting that Christ lived probably the most miraculous life of all, with the most miraculous and supernatural events in a given 33 years of biblical text...

Not only do you believe it... but your salvation depends on it...

While, on the other hand.. you "splain" away the literal six days of creation.


SOOOO, you must ask yourself... do you believe the gospel because you need it for salvation... or do you have salvation because the gospel is truth.
Then.. you must ask... how do you know what is truth and what is poetry, allegory, myth and parable?


I fully believe that if your salvation did not depend on the biblical account of Christ... you would dismiss it as metaphorical, allegorical or just some story written by sheep herders.

 

[misput]

Maybe you could be a bit more specific as to the scripture you are referring to about the last day being 1000 years and the seventh day lasting forever. Then I could comment more specifically.

I did not say this. If you read scripture the same way you read my post I can understand why you do not get much out of it.

The bible is pretty simple.. you can read it as a child and understand it. Or, you can earn a doctorate for diving in to the layers of details.

I have read the bible and on the fundamental level... all the days of creation are literal days. With fabricating and twisting and adding details that are not corresponding to the creation days.. you could whip up anything to appease yourself and put the square peg of evolution into the round hole of God's six days of creation.

This is not what I see. What I see is clearly "There was evening, there was morning" That's pretty clearly an earth day. Not only that, but we pattern our week "six days then rest" after this foundational fact.

If you are a new child in Christ, only able to take the milk of the word, that is fine but the scripture speaks of growing up and being able to partake of the meat also. Sorry some of you guys find it necessary to send me or anyone you do not agree with down the slippery sloop of unbelief : )

 

[NobleMouse]

Bible is not God. Also, your understanding of what you read is not necessarily what was originally meant.

Purely speculative, there is no substance to this argument.

As I've already told you, the narrative of Genesis is affirmed elsewhere in the Bible... in other words, it supports a plain interpretation of the creation account - below are a few:

David (Psalm 33:6, 9)
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.
For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

Nehemiah (Nehemiah 9:6)
You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you.

Isaiah (Isaiah 45:18)
For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the Lord, and there is no other."

Paul (Colossians 1:15-17)
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

John (John 1:1-3)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus (Matthew 19:4)
He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,"

ALL things were made through Christ. Evolution does not follow the sequence of the creation account, it doesn't follow the timeline of the creation account, it doesn't follow the means of the creation account.

It is alright, even good, to question God - it lets God know we seek to know Him better, to understand. But your questioning here isn't because of a desire to understand; you question so as to try to disprove that creation wasn't as how God revealed to Moses. Sorry but God saw these arguments coming before there was even time and even I can see them from a mile away. The days were told as days and the days were numbered, and the 7th day God made holy, and commanded his people to do the same (Exodus 20:8-11). God's word is truth, it is life, and I'll continue to trust in what He has said (which has never changed) versus what scientists have said (and is ever changing).

If the foundational book of the Bible is figurative, than there is no rational reason to believe the truths that are built upon it are anything more:

Will Jesus actually return again in a second coming?

Matthew 24:37-39
For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

But who is "them all" because this was just a local flood... right?

Genesis 6:13
And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them.

If Genesis is figurative, then the story of Noah was just that - a story. There was no Noah, no world-wide flood, no destruction of all flesh on land. If that was all figurative, then to build an expectation and a future truth on events that never happened is foolish. That doesn't really sound like the nature of the God of the Bible. No, it really happened. Jesus said "For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." If the story of Jonah was also figurative then there would really be no rational reason to believe Jesus would rise after 3 days, but He did.

God doesn't need our belief to validate the integrity of His word. He parted the Red Sea, He was a pillar of cloud by day and of fire by night, He made Moses' staff turn into a serpent then back into a staff when Moses picked it back up. God doesn't need our naturalistic assumptions about the the physical universe to raise the dead, cause waves and the wind to be still, give sight to the blind, or create the heavens and the earth by His word in the time He has told us.

 

[Brightmoon]

"real scientists" have never observed what they say evolution is... which is not real science.

When evolution falls into the realm of observational science then the concrete claims that observational science can make can be applied. Until then, evolution remains an unsupported hypothesis. I think I'll call it the UHoE instead of ToE as that is more fitting.

Thanks

Any polyploid species meets your criteria of observed evolution. The next time you eat bread or macaroni remember that you think they don’t exist.

 

[NobleMouse]

Any polyploid species meets your criteria of observed evolution. The next time you eat bread or macaroni remember that you think they don’t exist.

The existence of polyploid species has observed practical limits that are never crossed (so keep imagining). This is just where the term "species" is [yet again] misleading as species concepts can vary radically depending on the purpose, it can be taxonomic or evolutionary, theoretical or operational, clade or contemporaneous, or reproductive or cohesive, etc... it's so inconsistently used by scientists that is serves no other productive purpose other than creating a screen of confusion by which inferences to the evolutionary dogma can be made.

Thanks moonshine

 

[Brightmoon]

Bread wheat is a hexallopolyploid species and has 3 Times the normal chromosomes of its ancestor . When this happens they cannot produce fertile offspring with the ancestor species. So they are a separate species. Hybrid speciation like this is common

 

[Job 33:6]

Bread wheat is a hexallopolyploid species and has 3 Times the normal chromosomes of its ancestor . When this happens they cannot produce fertile offspring with the ancestor species. So they are a separate species. Hybrid speciation like this is common

Young earthers seem to believe that wheat should grow legs. Otherwise wheat remains wheat.

 

[Job 33:6]

Because nobody has seen wheat grow legs, evolution must be false!

 

[NobleMouse]

Further theological problems for the adherents of scientism here:

Luke 3:23-38 gives the lineage of Christ: "Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of... Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God."

Whoa whoa whoa, the son of who? Adam?? If Adam is a metaphor then this whole lineage is a bunch of nonsense. Apparently at the time Luke 3:23-38 was written, the prevalent belief was that Adam was real.

1 Corinthians 11:12 "for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God."

Here Paul clearly indicates that woman was made from man, just as it says in Genesis 2:21-22, He believed this was the order, it was factual. Evolution would say that humans showed up at the same time after having broken off from the same descendant as chimpanzees.

Paul further states in 1 Corinthians 15:37-39 "And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish." Evolution would say all flesh IS the same because all life arose from a LUCA.

This again affirms that there is a distinction, that God gave humans one body, animals a different, birds different, and fish different... just as it states in Genesis 1 that each was created according to its kind and given the command to be fruitful and multiply, each according to its kind.

So, o come all ye faithless, it is "by faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." (Hebrews 11:3). Then next verse, "By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts." Who are these named characters - apparently the author believed these were real people. And again in verse 7, "By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household." Who? Noah?? Oh that's right, didn't happen. Jesus appears to have believed otherwise, referring both to the account of creation (Matthew 19:4) and Noah (Matthew 24:37-39). Interestingly, Jesus said, "Have you not read"... as if the way to understanding and the way to truth was by reading the word of God (as opposed to say trying to interpret rocks or fossils).

The Bible really does fall apart when we allegorize Genesis. I'd be interested to see a poll of those who continue to scoff at scripture here and their thoughts on whether God really turned Moses' staff into a serpent and then back into a staff. I think it's a slippery slope for the non-believer because if you answer that it didn't happen then you just remove what little ounce of credibility you had left as you apparently don't believe anything miraculous from the Bible and can be immediately written off. On the other hand if you answer that it did happen, then you contradict your view that God wouldn't have also miraculously created everything else (just as it is written in His word).

 

[JacksBratt]

I did not say this. If you read scripture the same way you read my post I can understand why you do not get much out of it.

Here is what you said:
So if this "day" is thousands of years long, why not the others?

If you are a new child in Christ, only able to take the milk of the word, that is fine but the scripture speaks of growing up and being able to partake of the meat also. Sorry some of you guys find it necessary to send me or anyone you do not agree with down the slippery sloop of unbelief : )

So, if your a young baby Christian, it's OK to believe that God made the earth in six literal days and that He died and rose again, after living a miraculous life...

BUT.. if you are a old wise and well wizzend grandpa of a Christian.. you can toss out all that six day and world flood stuff and just hold tight, with white knuckles and a death grip.. to the gospel part.