Evolution and Evil

[ViaCrucis]

I actually think

You're one of the few here that seems to be willing to confess that fact.

Has anyone here claimed otherwise? Are you confusing "correct" with "literal"?

Historically Christians often took a non-literal view of the creation stories in Genesis; that doesn't mean they thought they were incorrect.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[HarleyER]

Has anyone here claimed otherwise? Are you confusing "correct" with "literal"?

Historically Christians often took a non-literal view of the creation stories in Genesis; that doesn't mean they thought they were incorrect.

-CryptoLutheran

I'm not sure where you get the notion that historically Christians often took a non-literal view of creation. They really are all over the board, some feeling creation was actually in a moment, others a literal six days, while others believing it is allogorical.

The REAL question is, "Do you think the God COULD have POSSIBLY created all creation in six days?"

But without getting off the rails, we're really talking about the evolution of evil. If evolution were a fact, evil would have evolved along with all the other animals, or there would have been no such thing as evil. Yet we see man is simply unique. There is no explanation of the evil of man.

 

[FireDragon76]

Historically there are some interpretations that Neanderthal would be subspecies of a sort. But as more refined data has come out, these days the majority of scholars would note that they're an independent species. Genetically, morphologically.

So it is understood that there was some inbreeding historically.

Have you considered there have been multiple species that can be considered human, not just one?

 

[Palmfever]

So how did evil evolved?

Evil didn't evolve.

Isaiah, 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

The new testament tells us clearly in several places that Christ created everthing.
Genesis tells us there was evil when it speaks of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The potential for evil always existed in Gods creation.
Satan was not created evil, contrary to calvinist delusion. He, had the option to choose God or reject him as do we.

Ezekiel 28:12-19​

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

John, 8:44
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

God defends us. He does not need us to defend Him. He has made it simple for us to becomes brothers of His Son. We must accept the free gift of His Sons death in our stead. We must place our faith in His promise. We are strangers here and know our home, our true life awaits on another plain. We have faith that in His time we will arrive home and enter into His rest.
This is the reason for that sense of not fitting in here. That longing for home. The sense there is something else going on yet we don't see it with our eyes.

God made it all. He doesn't make excuses. He made the potential for evil, but it is Satan, the angels that followed him and humans that carry it out.

 

[HarleyER]

Have you considered there have been multiple species that can be considered human, not just one?

And that is my point. If evil evolved, it would have infected other species.

 

[HarleyER]

Evil didn't evolve.

Isaiah, 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

The new testament tells us clearly in several places that Christ created everthing.
Genesis tells us there was evil when it speaks of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The potential for evil always existed in Gods creation.
Satan was not created evil, contrary to calvinist delusion. He, had the option to choose God or reject him as do we.

Ezekiel 28:12-19​

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

John, 8:44
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

God defends us. He does not need us to defend Him. He has made it simple for us to becomes brothers of His Son. We must accept the free gift of His Sons death in our stead. We must place our faith in His promise. We are strangers here and know our home, our true life awaits on another plain. We have faith that in His time we will arrive home and enter into His rest.
This is the reason for that sense of not fitting in here. That longing for home. The sense there is something else going on yet we don't see it with our eyes.

God made it all. He doesn't make excuses. He made the potential for evil, but it is Satan, the angels that followed him and humans that carry it out.

Finally, someone who makes sense.

 

[ViaCrucis]

And that is my point. If evil evolved, it would have infected other species.

There's no reason to think that evil "evolved", that's one of the points I've been trying to make in this thread.

CryptoLutheran

 

[FireDragon76]

And that is my point. If evil evolved, it would have infected other species.

Evil doesn't actually exist as a substantial reality, according to Augustine's theodicy. So evil doesn't "evolve". It's just we call "missing the mark". From God's perspective, he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike, just as Jesus said.

 

[HarleyER]

There's no reason to think that evil "evolved", that's one of the points I've been trying to make in this thread.

CryptoLutheran

I think your post is most reasonable and well thought out. But the more broader question is whether you think God is capable of making everything in six days if He willed to do so?

 

[HarleyER]

Evil doesn't actually exist as a substantial reality, according to Augustine's theodicy. So evil doesn't "evolve". It's just we call "missing the mark". From God's perspective, he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike, just as Jesus said.

According to a quick check of this:

Augustine proposed that evil could not exist within God, nor be created by God, and is instead a by-product of God's creativity. He rejected the notion that evil exists in itself, proposing instead that it is a privation of (or falling away from) good, and a corruption of nature.​

​

Augustinian theodicy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

​

Augustine and I are in sync on this one. Evil is a by-product of God's creativity. It is evidence of man's falleness.

 

[Job 33:6]

Have you considered there have been multiple species that can be considered human, not just one?

Neanderthals are genetically and morphologically independent of homo sapiens. They're different.

Also, the Bible is not a science textbook. Sorry if this upsets you.

 

[OnePlanPeopleDestiny]

Evolutionists ignore the fact that along with man evolving, we are the only species on the planet that has also evolved evil. Pain, suffering and death occurs with all creatures. But for mankind, we discriminate, enslave, lie, steal, cheat, murder, have wars, and on and on. Not only do we do things to others, but we do evil things to ourselves. And both internal and external traits of evil grow with each generation. Some psychologists believe evil evolved with evolution. But if this were true, then mankind would be devolving, not evolving-which is a Christian position. Despite the insistence of some that mankind has evolved from the same source and are just like all the other animals, there is no explaining how evil evolved. Evolutionist tend to ignore the issue.

Mankind is unique to this world and generates evil apart from any other animal on the world. And if evolution was correct, and mankind came from the same source as all other living creatures, then evil wouldn't/shouldn't exist.

So how did evil evolved?

Evolutionists ignore the fact that along with man evolving, we are the only species on the planet that has also evolved evil. Pain, suffering and death occurs with all creatures. But for mankind, we discriminate, enslave, lie, steal, cheat, murder, have wars, and on and on. Not only do we do things to others, but we do evil things to ourselves. And both internal and external traits of evil grow with each generation. Some psychologists believe evil evolved with evolution. But if this were true, then mankind would be devolving, not evolving-which is a Christian position. Despite the insistence of some that mankind has evolved from the same source and are just like all the other animals, there is no explaining how evil evolved. Evolutionist tend to ignore the issue.

Mankind is unique to this world and generates evil apart from any other animal on the world. And if evolution was correct, and mankind came from the same source as all other living creatures, then evil wouldn't/shouldn't exist.

So how did evil evolved?

Man's heart and mind are consumed with evil continually, and has been since the fall. When something new is invented man quickly figures out a way to use it for evil. Everything man has beheld, from fire, to the wheel, to rope, to the animal world, to the automated things of the world, tech, cyber, AI, atomic and nuclear power. It will only end when Jesus returns in fiery judgment to destroy all His enemies.

 

[ExTiff]

Evolutionists ignore the fact that along with man evolving, we are the only species on the planet that has also evolved evil. Pain, suffering and death occurs with all creatures. But for mankind, we discriminate, enslave, lie, steal, cheat, murder, have wars, and on and on. Not only do we do things to others, but we do evil things to ourselves. And both internal and external traits of evil grow with each generation. Some psychologists believe evil evolved with evolution. But if this were true, then mankind would be devolving, not evolving-which is a Christian position. Despite the insistence of some that mankind has evolved from the same source and are just like all the other animals, there is no explaining how evil evolved. Evolutionist tend to ignore the issue.

Mankind is unique to this world and generates evil apart from any other animal on the world. And if evolution was correct, and mankind came from the same source as all other living creatures, then evil wouldn't/shouldn't exist.

So how did evil evolved?

Evil is not wickedness. Human wickedness did not exist until human beings evolved fully into human beings. Evil existed long before that because evil is that which opposes the will of the creator God.

Only mankind, out of all evolved lifeforms so far, has been duped into believing they are now capable of discerning good from evil. It has become ‘as a god, knowing good from evil’. However, being mortal, it knows itself not to be a god because it knows gods are immortal and do not die, and the dichotomy disturbs its spirit and makes it fearful.

That fundamental error occurred when the first evolved, truly human, being, became aware of its own mortality and became terrified of death.

 

[HarleyER]

Evil is not wickedness. Human wickedness did not exist until human beings evolved fully into human beings. Evil existed long before that because evil is that which opposes the will of the creator God.

Only mankind, out of all evolved lifeforms so far, has been duped into believing they are now capable of discerning good from evil. It has become ‘as a god, knowing good from evil’. However, being mortal, it knows itself not to be a god because it knows gods are immortal and do not die, and the dichotomy disturbs its spirit and makes it fearful.

That fundamental error occurred when the first evolved, truly human, being, became aware of its own mortality and became terrified of death.

Evil is not wickedness.

Well, that is news to me.

Look, it is clear to me that you don't believe the fundamental doctrines of Scriptures. If I may give you a bit of advice.

I can think of three things off hand, according to Scripture, that God is really proud of (if I could use that word) and one should not toy with. The first is one should never triffle with the works of the Holy Spirit, either blasphamy His work or even simply lying to the Holy Spirit. This is a big no-no and people don't fair well in doing so.

The second is taking communion in a very irreverant or unworthy manner. While many seem to ignore this command today, we are warned by God that there will be consequences. That might be good advice to listen to.

The third thing that I'm very certain about, is that God takes His Word very seriously. In fact, He placed the longest Psalm (119) right in the middle of the Bible to tell us that the law of the Lord is perfect, trustworthy, and beneficial for us to study. He reiterates this over and over again throughout Scripture in both the Old and New Testament.

Now I'm not saying that everything needs to be taken on blind faith. But the fact of the matter is if you don't believe the Scripture, you really don't believe God because the Scriptures is about God (e.g. Jesus Christ). And with that mindset, there is nothing that I can say that will convince you otherwise.

 

[ExTiff]

Evil is not wickedness.

Well, that is news to me.

Evil is not wickedness. Evil and wickedness are two different things. Please learn the difference between them before attempting to offer me advice on the subject of evil or your understanding of the doctrines of scripture.

Look, it is clear to me that you don't believe the fundamental doctrines of Scriptures. If I may give you a bit of advice.

What is clear to you might not be so. That effect is known as ignorance.

I can think of three things off hand, according to Scripture, that God is really proud of (if I could use that word) and one should not toy with. The first is one should never triffle with the works of the Holy Spirit, either blasphamy His work or even simply lying to the Holy Spirit. This is a big no-no and people don't fair well in doing so.

The second is taking communion in a very irreverant or unworthy manner. While many seem to ignore this command today, we are warned by God that there will be consequences. That might be good advice to listen to.

The third thing that I'm very certain about, is that God takes His Word very seriously. In fact, He placed the longest Psalm (119) right in the middle of the Bible to tell us that the law of the Lord is perfect, trustworthy, and beneficial for us to study. He reiterates this over and over again throughout Scripture in both the Old and New Testament.

And the relevance of those observations to the subject under discussion is?

Now I'm not saying that everything needs to be taken on blind faith. But the fact of the matter is if you don't believe the Scripture, you really don't believe God because the Scriptures is about God (e.g. Jesus Christ). And with that mindset, there is nothing that I can say that will convince you otherwise.

Who is saying I don’t believe the scriptures? You, not me. What I don’t believe is your misunderstandings of the scriptures, not the scriptures themselves.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Evolutionists ignore the fact that along with man evolving, we are the only species on the planet that has also evolved evil. Pain, suffering and death occurs with all creatures. But for mankind, we discriminate, enslave, lie, steal, cheat, murder, have wars, and on and on. Not only do we do things to others, but we do evil things to ourselves. And both internal and external traits of evil grow with each generation. Some psychologists believe evil evolved with evolution. But if this were true, then mankind would be devolving, not evolving-which is a Christian position. Despite the insistence of some that mankind has evolved from the same source and are just like all the other animals, there is no explaining how evil evolved. Evolutionist tend to ignore the issue.

Mankind is unique to this world and generates evil apart from any other animal on the world. And if evolution was correct, and mankind came from the same source as all other living creatures, then evil wouldn't/shouldn't exist.

So how did evil evolved?

You’re making some pretty large opinion-based assumptions, and you are treating physical and genetic evolutions as the same as moral and perceptive evolutions.

The fact is there is no link between evolution and something as abstract as “evil,” nor are the traits you listed above unique to humans, not does “evil” grow with “every generation.”

 

[HarleyER]

Evil is not wickedness. Evil and wickedness are two different things. Please learn the difference between them before attempting to offer me advice on the subject of evil or your understanding of the doctrines of scripture.

What is clear to you might not be so. That effect is known as ignorance.

And the relevance of those observations to the subject under discussion is?

Who is saying I don’t believe the scriptures? You, not me. What I don’t believe is your misunderstandings of the scriptures, not the scriptures themselves.

Evil is not wickedness. Evil and wickedness are two different things.

Genesis 6:5
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Psalm 28:3
Do not drag me away with the wicked And with those who work iniquity, Who speak peace with their neighbors, While evil is in their hearts.

Psalm 140:8
“Do not grant, O Lord, the desires of the wicked; Do not promote his evil device, that they not be exalted. Selah.

How many verses do you need?

 

[HarleyER]

You’re making some pretty large opinion-based assumptions, and you are treating physical and genetic evolutions as the same as moral and perceptive evolutions.

The fact is there is no link between evolution and something as abstract as “evil,” nor are the traits you listed above unique to humans, not does “evil” grow with “every generation.”

These are not "opinion-based" assumptions. Rather, I would say it is pure logic simply by observing objectively life around us. There is none that does good.

I would agree that there is NO link between evolution and evil. But I wouldn't say evil is "abstract". Sure, you can't touch it or put it in a test tube. But one knows what is evil. And if you measure it against God's standard then one knows we are all evil.

Evil exists in only one creature-man. It didn't evolve and it had to come into the gene pool somehow.

One can simply look around to see if what I'm saying is correct. Of course, this is also what the Scriptures teaches so I'm not giving my opinion.

 

[ExTiff]

Evil is not wickedness. Evil and wickedness are two different things.

Genesis 6:5
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Psalm 28:3
Do not drag me away with the wicked And with those who work iniquity, Who speak peace with their neighbors, While evil is in their hearts.

Psalm 140:8
“Do not grant, O Lord, the desires of the wicked; Do not promote his evil device, that they not be exalted. Selah.

How many verses do you need?

Biblically speaking, moral “evil” is that which is opposed to God, that which is the opposite of God, and that which is contrary to God. Evil does not exist as a separate entity except in its relationship to God or good. All goodness originates in God and is from God. Anything that opposes God is evil.

“Wickedness” is the opposite of “righteousness”. The basic idea of “wickedness” or “evil” is to be “bad”, “worthless”, “corrupt”, opposing God and His will, opposing Jesus the Messiah, and opposing the Gospel of Jesus the Messiah.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

These are not "opinion-based" assumptions. Rather, I would say it is pure logic simply by observing objectively life around us. There is none that does good.

As soon a you say “I would say” you are announcing you are sharing an opinion.

Objectively, all of the things you listed as “evil” above are traits and behaviors all animals do.

I would agree that there is NO link between evolution and evil. But I wouldn't say evil is "abstract". Sure, you can't touch it or put it in a test tube. But one knows what is evil. And if you measure it against God's standard then one knows we are all evil.

“You wouldn’t say,” which means in your opinion it’s not abstract. However, it is abstract and objective.

Evil exists in only one creature-man. It didn't evolve and it had to come into the gene pool somehow.

One can simply look around to see if what I'm saying is correct. Of course, this is also what the Scriptures teaches so I'm not giving my opinion.

Again, the behaviors and traits listed above all exist in animals. They steal, show prejudice, cheat, have “wars,” kill, etc etc. Psychologists do not weigh in on the “evolution of evil” nor do they have one answer to it’s existence beyond the existence of the subjectivity of the concept existing through the judgement of another person.