Evolution and Evil

[HarleyER]

As soon a you say “I would say” you are announcing you are sharing an opinion.

Objectively, all of the things you listed as “evil” above are traits and behaviors all animals do.

“You wouldn’t say,” which means in your opinion it’s not abstract. However, it is abstract and objective.


Again, the behaviors and traits listed above all exist in animals. They steal, show prejudice, cheat, have “wars,” kill, etc etc. Psychologists do not weigh in on the “evolution of evil” nor do they have one answer to it’s existence beyond the existence of the subjectivity of the concept existing through the judgement of another person.

When animals (besides man) form a judge and jury to try and convict other animals for moral sins and evils, please let me know.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

When animals (besides man) form a judge and jury to try and convict other animals for moral sins and evils, please let me know.

Like Humans, Chimps Reward Cooperation and Punish Freeloaders

Recent research challenges the notion that our closest animal relatives don’t like working as a team

www.scientificamerican.com

Animal Acumen: Cooperation and Punishment | Inside NOVA | PBS

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2015.0090

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/15383342_Punishment_in_Animal_Societies

Do animals really know right from wrong?

In a famous YouTube video, Tank the dog looks guilty when his owner comes home to find trash scattered everywhere, and the trash can lid stuck on Tank's head. But does the dog know he misbehaved, or is he just trying to look submissive because his owner is yelling?

www.nbcnews.com

How Fish Punish 'Queue Jumpers'

Fish use the threat of punishment to keep would-be jumpers in the mating queue firmly in line and the social order stable, a new study led by Australian marine scientists has found. Their discovery has implications for the whole animal kingdom including humans.

www.sciencedaily.com

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1090513815001221

Chimpanzee justice - Scienceline

Differences in chimpanzee and human punishing behaviors

scienceline.org

Cheating and punishment in cooperative animal societies - PubMed

Cheaters-genotypes that gain a selective advantage by taking the benefits of the social contributions of others while avoiding the costs of cooperating-are thought to pose a major threat to the evolutionary stability of cooperative societies. In order for cheaters to undermine cooperation...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[HarleyER]

Like Humans, Chimps Reward Cooperation and Punish Freeloaders

Recent research challenges the notion that our closest animal relatives don’t like working as a team

www.scientificamerican.com

Animal Acumen: Cooperation and Punishment | Inside NOVA | PBS

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2015.0090

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/15383342_Punishment_in_Animal_Societies

Do animals really know right from wrong?

In a famous YouTube video, Tank the dog looks guilty when his owner comes home to find trash scattered everywhere, and the trash can lid stuck on Tank's head. But does the dog know he misbehaved, or is he just trying to look submissive because his owner is yelling?

www.nbcnews.com

How Fish Punish 'Queue Jumpers'

Fish use the threat of punishment to keep would-be jumpers in the mating queue firmly in line and the social order stable, a new study led by Australian marine scientists has found. Their discovery has implications for the whole animal kingdom including humans.

www.sciencedaily.com

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1090513815001221

Chimpanzee justice - Scienceline

Differences in chimpanzee and human punishing behaviors

scienceline.org

Cheating and punishment in cooperative animal societies - PubMed

Cheaters-genotypes that gain a selective advantage by taking the benefits of the social contributions of others while avoiding the costs of cooperating-are thought to pose a major threat to the evolutionary stability of cooperative societies. In order for cheaters to undermine cooperation...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I should have known better. I bet you could have posted hundreds more.

In today's society we abscribe human qualities to all sorts of things including cats and dogs. Especially if you go over to some little old lady who wants to tell you how smart her cats are. Then, of course, there is Jane Goodall living with apes, people living with bears, and, of course, there is Siegfried and Roy.

I remember hearing about some university who did an experiment and put a computer in with a bunch of monkeys to see if they could type a word. All the monkeys did were to type "s" a lot of time and deficate all over the keyboard. We'll have to wait for the Shakesperian novel.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I should have known better. I bet you could have posted hundreds more.

Probably. The fact that animals establish hierarchy which includes identifying, weeding out, or punishing bad behavior has been pretty well established for quite awhile now. It’s been documented in everything from gorillas to bees. In fact, bees have a pretty strict societal structure that very closely resembles people’s, complete with elected leadership, treatment of the ill/wounded, and tribunal justice. It’s pretty wild, actually.

I help with the hands on nature program for our school’s elementary kids, so this is stuff that we teach starting in elementary school, and the research is super cool.

In today's society we abscribe human qualities to all sorts of things including cats and dogs. Especially if you go over to some little old lady who wants to tell you how smart her cats are. Then, of course, there is Jane Goodall living with apes, people living with bears, and, of course, there is Siegfried and Roy.

What on earth are you talking about? How does Siegfried and Roy have anything to do with the societal behavior of nature? I think you’re confusing “personification” with “observation.”

I remember hearing about some university who did an experiment and put a computer in with a bunch of monkeys to see if they could type a word. All the monkeys did were to type "s" a lot of time and deficate all over the keyboard. We'll have to wait for the Shakesperian novel.

Again, what on earth are you talking about? I suspect you really oversimplified what actually occurred to arrive at… Whatever the point of your post was.

You put me in the room with a piece of equipment that I’ve never seen and don’t know how to use, then wait for me to see how it takes me to write a word in in Egyptian using hieroglyphics, you’re going to get a pretty similar result. Doesn’t mean I’m stupid or come from a society without a system, just that you’ve showed me something new, didn’t tell me how to use it, didn’t tell me what the end result you were going for was, and then waited to see if I’d figure it out.

Keep me in there long enough, you even may see some keyboard deification.

 

[expos4ever]

But for mankind, we discriminate, enslave, lie, steal, cheat, murder, have wars, and on and on.

I am quite certain that many animals engage in behavior that we would call "stealing". Besides, I believe that, for example, chimpanzees engage in behavior that would be reasonably characterized as "war".

 

[expos4ever]

Post 1 declares that evil grows with each generation. I see no evidence of this. Quite the contrary, I believe a case can be made that, on average, human beings are becoming less "evil" over the generations.

 

[expos4ever]

"Scientific theory cannot account for evil. This seems to me to be a rather big flaw in evolutionary theory.

Even if there is such a thing as "evil", the theory of evolution has nothing to say about it. Consequently, it is a category mistake to say that evolutionary theory must account for evil.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I am quite certain that many animals engage in behavior that we would call "stealing". Besides, I believe that, for example, chimpanzees engage in behavior that would be reasonably characterized as "war".

As do bees and hornets.

 

[HarleyER]

Like Humans, Chimps Reward Cooperation and Punish Freeloaders

Recent research challenges the notion that our closest animal relatives don’t like working as a team

www.scientificamerican.com

Animal Acumen: Cooperation and Punishment | Inside NOVA | PBS

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2015.0090

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/15383342_Punishment_in_Animal_Societies

Do animals really know right from wrong?

In a famous YouTube video, Tank the dog looks guilty when his owner comes home to find trash scattered everywhere, and the trash can lid stuck on Tank's head. But does the dog know he misbehaved, or is he just trying to look submissive because his owner is yelling?

www.nbcnews.com

How Fish Punish 'Queue Jumpers'

Fish use the threat of punishment to keep would-be jumpers in the mating queue firmly in line and the social order stable, a new study led by Australian marine scientists has found. Their discovery has implications for the whole animal kingdom including humans.

www.sciencedaily.com

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1090513815001221

Chimpanzee justice - Scienceline

Differences in chimpanzee and human punishing behaviors

scienceline.org

Cheating and punishment in cooperative animal societies - PubMed

Cheaters-genotypes that gain a selective advantage by taking the benefits of the social contributions of others while avoiding the costs of cooperating-are thought to pose a major threat to the evolutionary stability of cooperative societies. In order for cheaters to undermine cooperation...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Thanks for the articles. I'm sure there are a million of these.

The trouble is that humans project feelings and attitudes onto animals. Thus when a tiger pounce on someone and drag them off, it's simply that the tiger was being playful. It's like projecting God as some warm, cuddly friend you can sit down and drink hot chocolate with on a cold winter's day. I don't buy into any of that.

Seeing most of these articles come from liberal sites that I'm familiar with (e.g. Scientific American, PBS, NBC) only confirms my suspicions. I really don't need to read how stress chickens are or how thoughtful dogs for the blind are. The world has gone crazy to spend billions on animals when so many people are starving.

 

[HarleyER]

I am quite certain that many animals engage in behavior that we would call "stealing". Besides, I believe that, for example, chimpanzees engage in behavior that would be reasonably characterized as "war".

And I'm quite sure that all we're doing is projecting human behavior on animals.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

And I'm quite sure that all we're doing is projecting human behavior on animals.

I am quite sure if you read the studies around the discovery of these behaviors, you would see that isn’t the case.

 

[HarleyER]

I am quite sure if you read the studies around the discovery of these behaviors, you would see that isn’t the case.

I have read some studies (not these) of the discovery of these behaviors. I just disagree with the conclusions.

 

[HarleyER]

Probably. The fact that animals establish hierarchy which includes identifying, weeding out, or punishing bad behavior has been pretty well established for quite awhile now. It’s been documented in everything from gorillas to bees. In fact, bees have a pretty strict societal structure that very closely resembles people’s, complete with elected leadership, treatment of the ill/wounded, and tribunal justice. It’s pretty wild, actually.

I help with the hands on nature program for our school’s elementary kids, so this is stuff that we teach starting in elementary school, and the research is super cool.


What on earth are you talking about? How does Siegfried and Roy have anything to do with the societal behavior of nature? I think you’re confusing “personification” with “observation.”

Again, what on earth are you talking about? I suspect you really oversimplified what actually occurred to arrive at… Whatever the point of your post was.

You put me in the room with a piece of equipment that I’ve never seen and don’t know how to use, then wait for me to see how it takes me to write a word in in Egyptian using hieroglyphics, you’re going to get a pretty similar result. Doesn’t mean I’m stupid or come from a society without a system, just that you’ve showed me something new, didn’t tell me how to use it, didn’t tell me what the end result you were going for was, and then waited to see if I’d figure it out.

Keep me in there long enough, you even may see some keyboard deification.

I don't doubt that animals have social structures. What I disagree with is this prevalent attitude that, somehow, animals behave deliberately in some society. We project to animals the same attitudes and characteristics as humans. This is nothing more then a variation of Hinduism

Hinduism teaches that a part of God resides in all living things, which forms the atman. As such, reverence and respect for animals is taught. In Hinduism, many animals are venerated, including the tiger, the elephant, the mouse, and especially, the cow.​

BTW-Now they are saying the same things about plants.

https://www.bbcearth.com/news/plants-have-feelings-too

Plants have feelings too

Plants' skin helps them adapt to their environment, meaning they can respond to challenges like high winds and rocky soil, says a University of Melbourne expert

pursuit.unimelb.edu.au

It never stops except the research dollars.

 

[expos4ever]

I have read some studies (not these) of the discovery of these behaviors. I just disagree with the conclusions.

But why do you disagree? Do you have any substantive arguments, any actual case to make as to why we should not accept the results of these studies?

If you do not have an actual case to make, a reasonable reader will conclude that your position came first and that you selectively filter data to justify that position after the fact.

 

[HarleyER]

But why do you disagree? Do you have any substantive arguments, any actual case to make as to why we should not accept the results of these studies?

If you do not have an actual case to make, a reasonable reader will conclude that your position came first and that you selectively filter data to justify that position after the fact.

I've had a number of people on this site tell me that you cannot measure evil as part of the evolutionary process. They have said that it is abstract field of science. Thus evolution is measurable, man's evilness is not. I would agree that when evil popped up CANNOT be quantify. Likewise, love, hate, stealing, cheating, etc can't be quantify within humans as well as animals.

If that is the case, then all of these "studies" would simply be wrong. To project our beliefs onto animals is not much different than trying to measure evil.

 

[expos4ever]

I've had a number of people on this site tell me that you cannot measure evil as part of the evolutionary process. They have said that it is abstract field of science. Thus evolution is measurable, man's evilness is not. I would agree that when evil popped up CANNOT be quantify. Likewise, love, hate, stealing, cheating, etc can't be quantify within humans as well as animals.

If that is the case, then all of these "studies" would simply be wrong. To project our beliefs onto animals is not much different than trying to measure evil.

You appear to be attempting highly contrived arguments to aavoid the simple fact that just as we observe stealing among humans, we observe it among animals. This "projecting our beliefs" business is simply a distraction. We can see animal A take something from animal B that clearly belonged to animal B.

I could equally well argue that when you see one human being stealing something from another, you are simply "projecting your belief" onto that event.

You need to accept the fact that we do indeed observe acts such as stealing and murder between some animals.

 

[The Barbarian]

Evil happened, cos humans have a spirit, and ate of the wrong fruit, causing us to fall. Darwinian Evolution is a deception. Theistic evolution, as well as creation makes more sense.

Evolution is a natural phenomenon; we see it going on in all living populations. Theistic evolution is a religious belief that accepts God as the Creator of the natural world, which works according to His command.

 

[The Barbarian]

They weren't human.

They were certainly in the genus Homo, which is who biologists consider human. My personal take, based on the genetics and apparently frequent interbreeding, is that they are a biological race of H. sapiens, with us as a second race. There were at least two other races, according to this view, one being Denisovans and one as of yet unidentified. But it's not the view of every scientist in the discipline.

My thought is that Adam and Eve were archaic H. sapiens or possibly H. erectus (a species pretty much identical to H. sapiens in postcranial anatomy), and that a number of races descended from that ancestral pair of humans.

 

[The Barbarian]

The REAL question is, "Do you think the God COULD have POSSIBLY created all creation in six days?"

He could have done it in an instant. But He's not obligated to do everything that He can do.

 

[AlexB23]

Evolution is a natural phenomenon; we see it going on in all living populations. Theistic evolution is a religious belief that accepts God as the Creator of the natural world, which works according to His command.

Yeah, I believe mostly in the latter.