• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Featured Evidence of Christs coming

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by shilohsfoal, Mar 4, 2019.

  1. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    +1,243
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    Per your understanding then, why does the Son of man need to come before they have gone over all the cities of Israel? Come to do what? The context mainly involves discipleship. That could mean Jesus was speaking to disciples in general, which could also include disciples in future generations. Which then could mean He wasn't being literal about the cities of Israel, as in only cities literally in Israel, but that this instead was meaning something else altogether. For instance. Eventually 70 AD would occur, which then caused those living in Israel at the time to be scattered across the globe, thus now making the cities of Israel to be involving the entire planet, so to speak.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  2. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

    351
    +272
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    You can invent your own theology if you want to. Read into the scriptures all you like.

    As for me, I don't need conjecture. I don't need expressions like could mean to understand the Bible. I read what it says. Jesus sent parties into Galilee/Israel to preach the kingdom, which they did.
     
  3. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +6,550
    Anglican
    Married
    I believe this is about a specific "court hearing" - the one that's an answer to these calls for justice. The best way, in my opinion, to look at "God who will judge" is that He is "setting things right". He's righting the wrongs that were done. He's vindicating the innocent (the prophets and martyrs). He's enacting justice:

    Revelation 6:10 ~ And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?”

    Luke 18:7-8 ~ Will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry out to Him day and night? Will He continue to defer their help? I tell you, He will promptly carry out justice on their behalf. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?”

    Luke 13:34 ~ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling. Look, your house is left to you desolate. And I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  4. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +6,550
    Anglican
    Married
    Quoting Vladimir Moss, from the article Christ, Israel, and the Fall of Jerusalem:

    But for the Jews who rejected Him it was another matter. After their killing of Christ – which was not only regicide, but also Deicide, an act unparalleled in evil in the history of the world – there came upon them the punishment prophesied by Christ: “great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be” (Matthew 24.21). “That on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation…” (Matthew 23.35-36). This prophecy was fulfilled in 66-70 AD, when the Jews, incited by the Zealots, rose up in armed rebellion against Rome. The Roman Emperors Titus and Vespasian crushed the rebellion, destroyed the Temple and killed very many of the Jews. The extent of the slaughter is a matter of controversy, but the depth of the horror and suffering is beyond dispute.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  5. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    +1,243
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    I'm not trying to invent my own theology, I'm just trying to determine if there are other ways to understand some of these things. Per my perspective over all, pretty much any future coming by Jesus mentioned in the gospels would be involving the 2nd coming.

    Let me ask you the same thing again. Per your understanding, what was the reason Jesus indicated He would come before they have gone over all the cities of Israel? Come to do what? IOW, what coming mentioned in the gospels do you see this connecting to and why?
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  6. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

    351
    +272
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Jesus came again to usher in the new creation. It's what I indicated already (in post 100).

    So I'll ask you: why do you insist on finessing "other ways to understand" the Bible? Do futurists read it literally or do they not?
     
  7. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +6,550
    Anglican
    Married
    Why do you seem to strongly resist the idea that the "coming" (presence) that Jesus was most often referring to happened in 70 A.D.? When there are phrases like, "promptly" and "will occur in this generation" and "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom"....how can you deny the meaning of those phrases (especially held up against the historical fact of what happened to Jerusalem/the Temple in 70 A.D.)? Why do you search for another meaning when this is laid out right in front of you?
     
  8. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +6,550
    Anglican
    Married
    Oops. I just read this far (AFTER I posted). This is my question as well.
     
  9. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

    351
    +272
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    In fact, the Bible says that some of the apostles actually witnessed the judgment; Peter, for example, said that the time had come for the cult of temple to end.

    For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God (4:17).​

    And I know this is difficult for futurists to comprehend, and even some preterists, but the Parousia is actually the subject of Revelation. John the Revelator is recounting the events of the desolation and reminding his brethren that their Lord had indeed come.
     
  10. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +6,550
    Anglican
    Married
    David ~ the answer to your question is a meta-narrative. It's woven all throughout the Bible that God wishes to "dwell with His people". It's a thread that can be followed from Genesis to Revelation. It's a paradigm in which all the Bible is read. OTOH....when people cannot "see" that narrative - they are reading the Bible through another story line. I'm not sure what "plot" you read all throughout the Bible, but until you "take off those lenses" you won't be able to see this theme.

    I'm not good at summarizing (at all!) - but I will make an attempt:
    In the beginning....God walked in the garden with Adam and Eve....and everything was very good. When sin came into the world, God was grieved that His creation had strayed from His instruction and from His ways.....but He still longed to be with them in unity and in love. In the days of Moses - God dwelled with His people in the desert - in a physical way, so they'd know He was "there". Later on... David wished to build God a home, because David felt guilty that he had a beautiful palace and God was living in a tent (to David's mind). God didn't allow David to build the Temple....but promised he would have a son (Solomon) whose name would mean "peace over Jerusalem" and "loved by God" - and that son would build the Temple.

    The rest can be summarized better by this (from Bible Study Tools): In the days of Ezekiel, after the civil war and after the Northern Kingdom had fallen into apostasy and been judged by Assyria, the sin of the Southern Kingdom, where Jerusalem and the Temple were located, was so severe as to drive God from His sanctuary. God no longer met with Israel in the Temple because it was no longer His House (Eze. Eze. 8:6; Eze. 9:3; Eze. 10:4, Eze. 10:18-19; Eze. 11:22-23 cf. Mtt. Mat. 23:38-39; Mtt. Mat. 24:3; Luke Luke 13:35). Soon thereafter, the Temple was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar and the Jews that remained were exiled to Babylon. Thus, an important historic principle was established concerning the Temple: when God leaves His House, it becomes subject to destruction. When God is “at Home” in the Temple, no force in the universe can destroy it. In the sequence of events which led up to the final destruction of Jerusalem and Solomon’s Temple by Nebuchadnezzar, some of the Temple articles were taken to Babylon (2Chr. 2Chr. 36:7, 2Chr. 36:10, 2Chr. 36:18; Dan. Dan. 5:2-3, Dan. 5:23) as Jeremiah had prophesied (Jer. Jer. 20:5). The destruction of Solomon’s Temple fell on the 9th day of the Jewish month of Av, a date which became famous in Jewish history and is known as Tish Bʿav (9th of Av).1

    After seventy years of captivity in Babylon which God had prophesied (2Chr. 2Chr. 36:21; Jer. Jer. 25:11; Jer. 29:10; Dan. Dan. 9:2), and as God had prophesied through Isaiah (Isa. Isa. 44:24-Isa. 5:7), Cyrus was used of God to release the Jews to return back to Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple (Ezra Ezra 1:2; Ezra 3:7; Ezra 4:3; Ezra 5:13; Ezra 6:3, Ezra 6:14). When the Jews returned from Babylon, the Temple articles which had been taken by Nebuchadnezzar were returned (Ezra Ezra 1:7; Ezra 6:5). All of this was recorded by the historian Josephus.

    After the Jews rebuilt the Temple, there is no indication that God’s presence ever dwelt there as it had in the Tabernacle or Solomon’s Temple. God’s presence would eventually come to the Second Temple (see below), but in a form which the [apostate] Jews would fail to recognize (John John 1:14).​

    Since these verses [Eze. Eze. 43:1-7] on the return and restoration of God’s glory to the new Temple are one of the strongest evidences for the eschatological interpretation of chapters Eze. 40:1-Eze. 48:1, it is important to give closer attention to this event. Nowhere in Scripture nor in extrabiblical Jewish literature is it stated that the divine presence filled the Second Temple as it did the Tabernacle (Ex. Ex. 40:34-35) and the First Temple (1K. 1K. 8:10-11; 2Chr. 2Chr. 5:13-14; 2Chr. 2Chr. 7:13). Rather, Jewish sources made a point of its absence (see Tosefta Yom Tov) and relegated such a hope to the eschatological period known as ‘the period of the restoration of all things’ (Acts Acts 3:21).4

    During the Second Temple period, there was a great deal of political upheaval, both before and after the birth of Christ. Perhaps the two most significant events involving the Second Temple prior to the birth of Jesus were the defilement of the Temple at the time of Antiochus IV (Epiphanes) and the entry into the Holy of Holies years later by Pompey of Rome. The first event was predicted by Daniel and serves as a model—which Jesus pointed to (Mtt. Mat. 24:15)—of the future desolation.

     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  11. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +6,550
    Anglican
    Married
    ..........and the rest of the story is that WE (followers of Christ) just like the early church followers - are His "new creation" where He dwells within US (we are the new Temple).


    1 Corinthians 3:16 ~ Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

    Edited to add: fulfilling this prophecy in Ezekiel 43:1-7 ~
    God’s Glory Returns to the Temple

    1 Then the man brought me to the gate facing east,
    2 and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory.
    3The vision I saw was like the vision I had seen when he came to destroy the city and like the visions I had seen by the Kebar River, and I fell facedown.
    4 The glory of the LORD entered the temple through the gate facing east.
    5 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple.
    6 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple.
    7 He said: “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet. This is where I will live among the Israelites forever. The people of Israel will never again defile my holy name—neither they nor their kings—by their prostitution and the funeral offerings for their kings at their death.


     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  12. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    +1,243
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    Oddly enough, I have been meaning to ask some of you a similar question. As to Matthew 24:30, for instance. Why do you oppose the idea that this could be referring to the 2nd coming? Why would that be such a bad thing? Even you agree there will be a 2nd coming eventually. At least I think you do. So what is your reason for dismissing the possibility altogether?

    As to me and that verse in question, one reason of many would be the following, being why I interpret it to be the 2nd coming.

    Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
    48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
    49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
    50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
    51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    I'm not going to get into the details of how I interpret this passage, but I do pretty much grasp the meaning meant here. The context involves the 2nd coming, thus leads to the sheep and goats judgment. The coming mentioned in verse 48, for example, that is referring to the same coming previously mentioned in verse 30 IMHO. And if I am correct to connect the coming found here with that of verse 30, nothing in verse 42-51 even remotely match with anything having to do with 70 AD. 70 AD is not the context, not even close.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  13. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +6,550
    Anglican
    Married
    "The second coming" (specifically with that name) is a man-formed theology that's different than what I see as the story line of the Bible.

    I agree that He will come again - but that's different than what I think you believe is "a 2nd coming". That's the issue that needs to be straightened out (or discussed, at least). It actually may help conversation if that term is left out - and instead descriptions are used in its place (since there are other connotations attached to it that muddy the waters).
     
  14. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +6,550
    Anglican
    Married
    Take notice of the heading of that chapter and consider the context:


    Matthew 24 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
    The Destruction of the Temple Foretold
    24 As Jesus came out of the temple and was going away, his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 Then he asked them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down.”

    Signs of the End of the Age....
     
  15. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,842
    Christian
    Married

    Depends on the meaning of coming on the clouds.


    The only old testament reference to the son of man coming on the clouds is in Daniel 7, and notice when the son of man comes on the clouds he is going to the Father.

    Daniel 7:13 In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man
    coming with the clouds of heaven
    . He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence.

    When Jesus talks to Caiaphus he associates the son of man coming on the clouds with the son of man sitting at the right hand. We can see Jesus alluding to Daniel 7, where it is prophesied that son of man ascends to the father to receive the kingdom.

    ***Here's the kicker, Jesus tells Caiaphus and others that from NOW ON, you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand AND coming on the clouds.

    matthew 26:64 Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.

    So if you believe the words of Jesus, you have one of the first "eye" witnesses that caiphus would "from now on" see Jesus coming on the clouds of heaven.

    So was Jesus wrong and did Caiaphus really not "from now on" see Jesus coming on the clouds?

    If Caiaphus did from now on see Jesus coming on the clouds, as Jesus said he would, why is that different then Matthew 24:30 "they will see the son of man coming on the clouds"?


    Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

    Notice the verb "coming" is present tense, but "will see" is future tense
    Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—

    The earth is a globe. From the USA I cannot see a bird flying over the mount of olives several thousand miles away. How would I see Jesus physically descend from heaven over Jerusalem?

    I would argue every I will see him, because everyone must stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

    Romans 14:10-11 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written,
    “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confessb to God.”
     
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +6,349
    Christian
    Married
    Can you get your belief to agree with the words of the Son of God found below?

    Jesus Christ said He is the judge.


    Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
    Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
    Joh 5:29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
    Joh 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.


    The timing of the event is found below.

    Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."


    .
     
  17. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +6,550
    Anglican
    Married
    I'm not certain of the timing of these passages.......but I do believe He's in the business of judging and enacting justice until His return.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  18. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Jacks or better to open

    +488
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Jesus did not say Caiaphus would be the first to see Jesus coming in the clouds.
    And you have not provide anyone with Caiaphas's testimony of Jesuscoming in,the clouds.
    Thank you in advance for providing us with witness accounts.
     
  19. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,842
    Christian
    Married
    Nor did I say Caiaphus was THE FIRST eye witness.

    I provided Jesus' testimony that it would happen. Is that not good enough?

    Matthew 26:64 Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, FROM NOW ON you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    If Jesus says something would happen, do you believe it? If you don't believe it, then why are you on Christian forums debating scripture?

    In order to address the validity of the OP and that you have, in fact, correctly interpreted the meaning of the son of man coming on the clouds you need to address:


    So was Jesus wrong and did Caiaphus really not "from now on" see Jesus coming on the clouds?

    If Caiaphus did from now on see Jesus coming on the clouds, as Jesus said he would, why is that different then
    Matthew 24:30 "they will see the son of man coming on the clouds"?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  20. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Jacks or better to open

    +488
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Single
    So you saying Caiaphas saw Jesus sitting beside God and coming in,the clouds while Jesus was standing there talking to him?

    Wouldnt Jesus have to ascend into heaven and sit beside of God first or are you saying Caiaphas could see into the future before Christ ascended to the throne?
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
Loading...