Evidence of Christs coming

[shilohsfoal]

This is so comical.
Ask for one eye witness who has seen Jesus coming in the clouds as he said he would and insted of getting just one witness ,i get people trying thier best to convice me that someone else saw Jesus coming in the clouds even though that person had never saida word about it as far as they know.
This is hilarious

 

[mkgal1]

would mean Caiaphas had to see jesuscoming in the clouds when Jesus was speaking to him

Do a search in the Bible of the phrase "coming on the clouds". It's not literal - it's symbolic of God's power and judgement. When Jesus used the phrase - He was pointing to a specific passage (Daniel 7:13)....which Caiaphas would have known well. Jesus was making the bold proclamation that He is God.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Do a search in the Bible of the phrase "coming on the clouds". It's not literal - it's symbolic of God's power and judgement. When Jesus used the phrase - He was pointing to a specific passage (Daniel 7:13)....which Caiaphas would have known well. Jesus was making the bold proclamation that He is God.

Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

So your saying no one one will really see Jesus coming in,the clouds and that Jesus wasnt really telling the truth.

 

[BABerean2]

Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

So your saying no one one will really see Jesus coming in,the clouds and that Jesus wasnt really telling the truth.

You are correct.
The future Second Coming of Christ occurs when "the times of the Gentiles" is fulfilled.


Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."


Act 28:28 "Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!"


Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

.

 

[DavidPT]

Do a search in the Bible of the phrase "coming on the clouds". It's not literal - it's symbolic of God's power and judgement. When Jesus used the phrase - He was pointing to a specific passage (Daniel 7:13)....which Caiaphas would have known well. Jesus was making the bold proclamation that He is God.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Isn't the chronology backwards from that of Daniel 7:13-14 though? In Daniel 7 doesn't He come in the clouds of heaven first? And after He has arrived He is then rewarded with sitting on the right hand of power? Why would Matthew 26:64 have the order reversed if this is referring to the ascension event recorded in Daniel 7:13-14 ? The chronology in Matthew 26:64 appears to be the ascension followed by the return from the ascension then.

In Daniel 7:13-14 He obviously didn't already sit on the right hand of power before He even came in the clouds of heaven. Clearly it was the other way around.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Can any of the preterists on this board provide any eye witness account of Christs coming in,the clouds.
Jesus clearly said they shall see him coming in the clouds.Please provide eye witness accounts below.

A feature of prophetic utterances is that events that may be centuries apart are connected as though they'd occur in one action.

God isn't subject to time. Whatever happens, occurs before God in one great present.

When this world's last day dawns, signs will appear. Nature's laws will be overthrown. There'll be chaos in the subverting of the powers that have held the universe in its path.

God will at that time recall nature's laws, and deal with the universe according to God's plan.

And then, the sign, Man's Son himself, will appear in the sky, clothed with his power. The once-humble Man's Son will now show that his supernatural claims were valid.

Then the tribes, the nations, shall wail, as the Judge comes in the clouds, with power. And there'll be a trumpet sound, and the angels will be sent out to collect those that are his own in faith.

From the earth's corners, from every people-group, tongue and nation, they'll gather at the call.

 

[DavidPT]

I would like to point some things out here, where most of this is already clear to many of us, but apparently not clear to all of us. So this is mostly for the benefit of the latter.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This involves a cloud, but not a literal cloud though. I tend to think it is meaning a cloud of angels since it's not unreasonable to conclude that angels would be accompanying Christ back into heaven. I therefore take this to be referring to the clouds of heaven we often see connected with the coming of the Son of man. With that in mind, take note of verse 11---this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

What might that indicate? If clouds of heaven were involved in His ascension, and that the text plainly indicates shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven, it is then not unreasonable to conclude clouds of heaven will also be involved in His return in the future as well. With all of this in mind, let's look at least two passages for the time being. Let's first look at Daniel 7:13-14.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Take note of the order of events here. He first arrives on the clouds of heaven. This would explain the cloud seen when He left the earth per Acts 1:9-11, thus this being His arrival back into heaven in Daniel 7:13-14. Notice that when He initially arrives He does not arrive already possessing dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, but are given these things after He has arrived. This then explains one aspect of coming in the clouds of heaven. But according to Acts 1:9-11 He has to return in like manner, thus return in the clouds of heaven. What passage might explain that aspect? The 2nd passage I was wanting to bring up would.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Notice something here. This coming, unlike the coming in Daniel 7:13-14 where He didn't already possess power and glory before He arrived, but was given it upon arrival, in Matthew 24:30 though, He is clearly already in possession of power and glory before He even arrives. What explains where He initially obtained this power and glory? Daniel 7:13-14 of course. Also keeping in mind that a coming in the clouds of heaven event has to occur when He returns as well, that according to Acts 1:9-11. Thus this event in Matthew 24:30 being His return in like manner.

I don't even remotely expect any hardcore Preterist to change their minds about anything based on what I submitted here, but those who are maybe on the fence about these things though, maybe this might help them to lean more towards grasping that Matthew 24:30 is referring to His coming in the future, and not a coming that already happened in the past instead.

 

[mkgal1]

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Isn't the chronology backwards from that of Daniel 7:13-14 though? In Daniel 7 doesn't He come in the clouds of heaven first? And after He has arrived He is then rewarded with sitting on the right hand of power? Why would Matthew 26:64 have the order reversed if this is referring to the ascension event recorded in Daniel 7:13-14 ?

What chronology? I think you are reading that into the text (to make sense of the sitting AND coming).

I don't read Matthew 26:64 as a sequence of events. The text doesn't say, "sitting and THEN coming on the clouds". When you read this - if it's a sequence of events - then it seems you have Him ceasing to be "sitting on the right hand of power" when He's "coming on the clouds" .....but I read it as being simultaneous (He doesn't cease to be at the right hand of power). See what I'm pointing out? Besides these aren't literal phrases of action - they are symbolic of judgment and power.

 

[DavidPT]

What chronology? I think you are reading that into the text (to make sense of the sitting AND coming).

I don't read Matthew 26:64 as a sequence of events. The text doesn't say, "sitting and THEN coming on the clouds". When you read this - if it's a sequence of events - then it seems you have Him ceasing to be "sitting on the right hand of power" when He's "coming on the clouds" .....but I read it as being simultaneous (He doesn't cease to be at the right hand of power). See what I'm pointing out? Besides these aren't literal phrases of action - they are symbolic of judgment and power.

Assuming there might not be a sequence of events in this verse, it still seems odd to me that sitting on the right hand of power would be mentioned prior to the mentioning of coming on the clouds, since it would be the latter that leads to the former if meaning the events recorded in Daniel 7:13-14. Maybe it's just my translation causing me to wonder this? I may take a look at how some other translations render this verse.

 

[mkgal1]

Assuming there might not be a sequence of events in this verse, it still seems odd to me that sitting on the right hand of power would be mentioned prior to the mentioning of coming on the clouds, since it would be the latter that leads to the former if meaning the events recorded in Daniel 7:13-14. Maybe it's just my translation causing me to wonder this? I may take a look at how some other translations render this verse.

You can reverse the order of those phrases and get the same meaning (like Hank Hanegraaf did here) because both phrases are symbolic of judgment and His deity (pointing to Daniel 7:13-14 and Psalm 110):

Hank Hanegraaff
"Jesus was the One who in the Olivet Discourse made the mother of all prophecies. He said 'not one stone here will be left upon another, every one will be thrown down.' And He based His deity on that just like He did on the resurrection. If that prophecy had not been fulfilled, Jesus would indeed have been a false prophet. In fact, when He was before Caiaphas the High Priest, He said to Caiaphas, 'you will see the Son of Man coming on clouds and seated at the right hand of the Mighty One.' In other words, He said to him, 'you will see my vindication and exaltation. And, indeed, the very court that condemned Him to death saw His vindication and exaltation when Jerusalem was destroyed.. The utter destruction of Jerusalem takes place and vindicates what Jesus Christ has said." (Voice of Reason 11/21)​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What chronology? I think you are reading that into the text (to make sense of the sitting AND coming).
I don't read Matthew 26:64 as a sequence of events. The text doesn't say, "sitting and THEN coming on the clouds". When you read this - if it's a sequence of events - then it seems you have Him ceasing to be "sitting on the right hand of power" when He's "coming on the clouds" .....but I read it as being simultaneous (He doesn't cease to be at the right hand of power). See what I'm pointing out? Besides these aren't literal phrases of action - they are symbolic of judgment and power.

Hello mkgal. I have pretty much done a thorough study on "clouds/cloud" in the NT [still working on the OT]
It may or may not interest others here that the word plural "clouds" occurs in only 4 verses in the Gospels, and only 8 times in the entire NT
I translated these verses below word for word from the greek texts and an interlinear to get as good as grammar concerning the tenses of the words.
Here is what I come up with

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:30 "coming with clouds, in cloud"

CLOUDS (NKJV)
[clouds]

Matthew 24:30
And then shall be appearing the sign of the Son of the Man in heaven, and then shall be grieving/striking selves<2875>all the tribes of the land.
And they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;
Matthew 26:64
Jesus is saying to him "thou say,
moreover I am saying to ye from present<737> ye shall be seeing the Son of the Man sitting out of the rights<1188> of the Power and coming upon the clouds of the heaven
==================
Mark 13:26
“And they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in clouds with much power and glory.
Mark 14:62
The yet Jesus said, 'I<1473> AM<1510>;
and ye shall be seeing the Son of the Man sitting out of rights<1188> of the Power and coming with the clouds of the heaven
===============
Other 4 times used in the NT:

1Th 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
2Pe 2:17
These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever
Jude 1:12
These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves.
They are clouds without water, carried about[fn] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;

Rev 1:7
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will grieve.2875> over Him. Even so, Amen.

=============================
Luke uses singular cloud. I created a thread on it, but it didn't garner much interest........

Why does Luke 21:27 use the singular "cloud" instead of "clouds"?

Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in a cloud with power and much glory; [Revelation 14:14-15]

Here He is shown upon the cloud at the great Harvest..........

Revelation 14:
14 Then I looked, and behold! a white cloud,
and on the cloud sat One like the Son of the Man, having on His head a golden crown,
and in His hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying with a loud voice to Him Who sat on the cloud,
“Thrust in Thy sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap,
for the harvest of the land is ripe.”
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth,
and the earth was reaped.

 

[BABerean2]

Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in a cloud with power and much glory; [Revelation 14:14-15]

Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."


Act 28:28 "Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!"


Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Assuming there might not be a sequence of events in this verse, it still seems odd to me that sitting on the right hand of power would be mentioned prior to the mentioning of coming on the clouds, since it would be the latter that leads to the former if meaning the events recorded in Daniel 7:13-14. Maybe it's just my translation causing me to wonder this? I may take a look at how some other translations render this verse.

Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

.

I pretty much have all of the 70ad Mount of Olives discourses of Matt 24, Mar 13 and Luke 21 harmonized here [still a work in progress translating it and harmonizing it to the book of Revelation]
Please feel free to comment on it over at this link..........

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:9

Matthew 23:
33 Serpents, brood of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna? 34 Therefore behold! I send to ye prophets, wise men, and scribes.
From out of them ye shall be killing and crucifying, and out of them you shall be scourging<3146> in synagogues, and persecuting from city to city;
35 that on ye may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth....

Matthew 24:9
Then they shall be delivering ye up in to tribulation and shall be killing ye
and ye shall be being hated by all of the nations because of the Name of Me

Mark 13:9
Yet be ye looking out yeselves!
For they shall be delivering ye up into Sanhedrins and into Synagogues, and ye shall be being lashed<1194>
and upon Governors and Kings to be standing on account of Me, into a witness/testimony to them.

Luke 21:12
Yet before all of these, they shall be laying the hands upon ye and shall be persecuting/pursuing ye,
delivering ye up into the Synagogues and Jails,
being led upon Kings and Governors on account of the Name of Me
=============

Matthew 24:9
9 “Then they shall be delivering ye into tribulation and they shall be killing ye,
and ye shall be being hated by all of the nations for My name’s sake.
Mark 13:13
“And ye shall be being hated by all [*men] for My name’s sake.
Yet the one enduring into end, this one shall be being saved.”

Luke 21:
17 “And ye shall be being hated by all for My name’s sake.
18 “and hair of head of ye not no should be perishing

 

[DavidPT]

Do a search in the Bible of the phrase "coming on the clouds". It's not literal - it's symbolic of God's power and judgement. When Jesus used the phrase - He was pointing to a specific passage (Daniel 7:13)....which Caiaphas would have known well. Jesus was making the bold proclamation that He is God.

When you really think about it though, the fact this same phrase is used in Daniel 7:13-14, and if that involves Christ's ascension back into heaven, in that context then, how could it possibly involve God's power and judgement, especially in the sense you appear to be taking God's power and judgement to be meaning over all?

 

[DavidPT]

Here He is shown upon the cloud at the great Harvest..........

Revelation 14:
14 Then I looked, and behold! a white cloud,
and on the cloud sat One like the Son of the Man, having on His head a golden crown,
and in His hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying with a loud voice to Him Who sat on the cloud,
“Thrust in Thy sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap,
for the harvest of the land is ripe.”
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth,
and the earth was reaped.

View attachment 253030

View attachment 253031

Personally I'm not fully convinced that Jesus is seen here sitting on this cloud. But I guess that's a discussion and debate for another thread.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Can any of the preterists on this board provide any eye witness account of Christs coming in,the clouds.
Jesus clearly said they shall see him coming in the clouds.Please provide eye witness accounts below.

Depends on the meaning of coming on the clouds.

The only old testament reference to the son of man coming on the clouds is in Daniel 7, and notice when the son of man comes on the clouds he is going to the Father.

Daniel 7:13 In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man
coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence.

When Jesus talks to Caiaphus he associates the son of man coming on the clouds with the son of man sitting at the right hand. We can see Jesus alluding to Daniel 7, where it is prophesied that son of man ascends to the father to receive the kingdom.

***Here's the kicker, Jesus tells Caiaphus and others that from NOW ON, you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand AND coming on the clouds.

matthew 26:64 Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.

So if you believe the words of Jesus, you have one of the first "eye" witnesses that caiphus would "from now on" see Jesus coming on the clouds of heaven.

So was Jesus wrong and did Caiaphus really not "from now on" see Jesus coming on the clouds?

If Caiaphus did from now on see Jesus coming on the clouds, as Jesus said he would, why is that different then Matthew 24:30 "they will see the son of man coming on the clouds"?

Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Notice the verb "coming" is present tense, but "will see" is future tense
Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—

The earth is a globe. From the USA I cannot see a bird flying over the mount of olives several thousand miles away. How would I see Jesus physically descend from heaven over Jerusalem?

I would argue every I will see him, because everyone must stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Romans 14:10-11 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confessb to God.”

Jesus did not say Caiaphus would be the first to see Jesus coming in the clouds.
And you have not provide anyone with Caiaphas's testimony of Jesuscoming in,the clouds.
Thank you in advance for providing us with witness accounts.

claninja said: ↑
Nor did I say Caiaphus was THE FIRST eye witness.

I provided Jesus' testimony that it would happen. Is that not good enough?

Matthew 26:64 Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, FROM NOW ON you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

If Jesus says something would happen, do you believe it? If you don't believe it, then why are you on Christian forums debating scripture?

In order to address the validity of the OP and that you have, in fact, correctly interpreted the meaning of the son of man coming on the clouds you need to address:

So was Jesus wrong and did Caiaphus really not "from now on" see Jesus coming on the clouds?

If Caiaphus did from now on see Jesus coming on the clouds, as Jesus said he would, why is that different then Matthew 24:30 "they will see the son of man coming on the clouds"?
So you saying Caiaphas saw Jesus sitting beside God and coming in,the clouds while Jesus was standing there talking to him?

Wouldnt Jesus have to ascend into heaven and sit beside of God first or are you saying Caiaphas could see into the future before Christ ascended to the throne?

shilohsfoal said: ↑
So you saying Caiaphas saw Jesus sitting beside God and coming in,the clouds while Jesus was standing there talking to him?

claninja said: ↑
Did Jesus say it?

Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

the "from now on" is associated with the timing of the sitting at the right hand and coming on the clouds. Do you disagree? Additionally the word for "see" does not always mean to literally see with the eyes, but is often used for spiritually understand with the mind.

So again, In order to address the validity of the OP and that you have, in fact, correctly interpreted the meaning of the son of man coming on the clouds you need to address:

So was Jesus wrong and did Caiaphus really not "from now on" see Jesus coming on the clouds?

If Caiaphus did from now on see Jesus coming on the clouds, as Jesus said he would, why is that different then Matthew 24:30 "they will see the son of man coming on the clouds"?

If jesus said from NOW ON then he means from,NOW ON.Then that woild mean that Caiaphas would have tk see Jesus sitting at the right hand of God from that moment on.
That would mean,Caiaphas could see Jesus sitting beside God and coming in the clouds before Jesus was even cricified.


Do you believe that?

shilohsfoal said: ↑
Do you agree that the words FROM NOW ON mean FROM NOW ON?
Then did Caiaphus see Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and coming in the clouds at the time Jesus said it and not days months or years from that moment he said it?
Do you agree from now on means from now on?

mkgal1 said: ↑
Yes, from now on means 'from now on'. But....what Caiaphas saw was Jesus exhibiting His power and glory by fulfilling what He said He would - and taking the corrupt religious system from those that bore no fruit. He also "set things right" by avenging for all the innocent blood that was shed. This wasn't an empty threat that Jesus made - He followed through on it (yet, at the same time, brought salvation). The shekinah glory that the Jews had been waiting for had finally come:

claninja said: ↑
I agree, which was well before this:

matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

So if Caiaphus died in 36 ad, how could he from now on see Jesus sitting at the right hand and coming on the clouds, if the coming on clouds is only an end time event?

So, before you can ask a preterist to provide an eye witness of Jesus coming on the clouds, we first have to make sure that your interpretation of "coming on the clouds" is correct.

matthew 26:64 said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven



When Jesus fulfilled Psalm 110:1 and Daniel 7:13-14 by ascending to the Father.


So again, In order to address the validity of the OP and that you have, in fact, correctly interpreted the meaning of the son of man coming on the clouds you need to address:

So was Jesus wrong and did Caiaphus really not "from now on" see Jesus coming on the clouds?

If Caiaphus did from now on see Jesus coming on the clouds, as Jesus said he would, why is that different then Matthew 24:30 "they will see the son of man coming on the clouds"?

Well.From now on would mean Caiaphas had to see jesuscoming in the clouds when Jesus was speaking to him.The word NOW is the present moment.
So from now on,would mean from that moment on.
Now Jesus had not asceded into the clouds unto after his resurection.
So Caiaphas could have recieved a vision or a dream,seeing Christ sitting at the right hand of God and coming in the clouds.Its possible.
But since Caiaphas died in 37 ad ,he did not see much of anything else after the cross.He wasnt around to see the disporah.

mkgal1 said: ↑
Do a search in the Bible of the phrase "coming on the clouds". It's not literal - it's symbolic of God's power and judgement. When Jesus used the phrase - He was pointing to a specific passage (Daniel 7:13)....which Caiaphas would have known well. Jesus was making the bold proclamation that He is God.

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Revelation 14:
14 Then I looked, and behold! a white cloud,
and on the cloud sat One like the Son of the Man, having on His head a golden crown,
and in His hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying with a loud voice to Him Who sat on the cloud,
“Thrust in Thy sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap,
.

Personally I'm not fully convinced that Jesus is seen here sitting on this cloud. But I guess that's a discussion and debate for another thread.

Hell David. I pondered on that also, until I remembered an event in Daniel where it showed both Gabriel and Michael talking.

[Daniel's name is mentioned on in 2 verses of the entire NT]
I also have it posted on this other thread

Book - Sealed with 7 Seals
Cloud Clouds Messengers Daniel

Daniel 8:16
And I heard a Man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.”

Daniel 9:21
yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the Man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering.
===================
Gabriel is mentoned 2 times in the NT. The first is when He appears to the father of John the Baptist:

Luke 1:19 And the angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings.

The 2nd time He comes to Mary:

Luke 1:26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
==================
And this event where Daniel visions a Man similar to Jesus in Revelation 1.

Daniel 10:
5 I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold! a Man clothed in linen,
with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude.

Rev 1:14
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;
15 His feet were like burnished bronze, as if refined in a furnace,
and His voice as the sound of many waters;
===================================

Daniel 10:
13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days.
Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help Me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
21 “But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds Me against these, except Michael your prince.

Dan 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;

Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,

Revelation 14:
14 Then I looked, and behold! a white cloud,
and on the cloud sat One likeas a Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown,
and in His hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying with a loud voice to Him Who sat on the cloud,
“Thrust in Thy sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap

Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in a cloud with power and much glory; [Revelation 14:14-15]

.

 

[DavidPT]

Hell David. I pondered on that also, until I remembered an event in Daniel where it showed both Gabriel and Michael talking.

[Daniel's name is mentioned on in 2 verses of the entire NT]
I also have it posted on this other thread

Book - Sealed with 7 Seals
Cloud Clouds Messengers Daniel

Daniel 8:16
And I heard a Man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.”

Daniel 9:21
yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the Man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering.
===================
Gabriel is mentoned 2 times in the NT. The first is when He appears to the father of John the Baptist:

Luke 1:19 And the angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings.

The 2nd time He comes to Mary:

Luke 1:26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
==================
And this event where Daniel visions a Man similar to Jesus in Revelation 1.

Daniel 10:
5 I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold! a Man clothed in linen,
with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude.

Rev 1:14
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;
15 His feet were like burnished bronze, as if refined in a furnace,
and His voice as the sound of many waters;
===================================

Daniel 10:
13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days.
Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help Me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
21 “But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds Me against these, except Michael your prince.

Dan 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;

Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,

Revelation 14:
14 Then I looked, and behold! a white cloud,
and on the cloud sat One likeas a Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown,
and in His hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying with a loud voice to Him Who sat on the cloud,
“Thrust in Thy sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap

Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in a cloud with power and much glory; [Revelation 14:14-15]

.

All very good points you bring up, but in this particular case, the way I reason it though, Jesus tells angels what and when to do something, and not the other way around instead. In a hierarchy Jesus is clearly above that of any angel, the fact He is God. Angels don't give God orders to execute, God gives angels orders to execute.

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.



The first thing to take note of is this. In this particular context which basically starts as of verse 14, where verse 15 says this----And another angel came out of the temple

Another angel implies a previous angel had already come out of the temple then. If we look at verse 17---And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle---this tells us that the angel we are looking for before that of the angel in verse 15, that this angel has to be found in this context where that basically begins with verse 14.

Therefore this one in verse 14 being the first angel coming out of the temple with a sharp sickle, and the other angel coming out of the temple being found in verse 17 of course. Apparently then, all of these angels appear to be getting their orders from someone inside the temple, then they relaying these orders to other angels once they are no longer in the temple. Who could be the one initially giving orders inside the temple? God Himself would be my guess. And since Jesus is God, why not Him then?

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

In this passage the Son of man is obviously referring to Christ. Note what verse 39 indicates----and the reapers are the angels. It can't get any clearer than that. Now note in verse 41 this----The Son of man shall send forth his angels. And it also can't get any clearer than this either.

Based on all of the above then, though I realize the popular view is that the one sitting on the cloud in Revelation 14:14 is Christ Himself, I'm thinking it likely isn't unless Christ is really an angel, which then would mean He also sends forth Himself in Matthew 13:41 to gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, rather than sending His angels exactly like the text indicates.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All very good points you bring up, but in this particular case, the way I reason it though, Jesus tells angels what and when to do something, and not the other way around instead. In a hierarchy Jesus is clearly above that of any angel, the fact He is God. Angels don't give God orders to execute, God gives angels orders to execute.

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

The first thing to take note of is this. In this particular context which basically starts as of verse 14, where verse 15 says this----And another angel came out of the temple

Another angel implies a previous angel had already come out of the temple then. If we look at verse 17---And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle---this tells us that the angel we are looking for before that of the angel in verse 15, that this angel has to be found in this context where that basically begins with verse 14.

Therefore this one in verse 14 being the first angel coming out of the temple with a sharp sickle, and the other angel coming out of the temple being found in verse 17 of course. Apparently then, all of these angels appear to be getting their orders from someone inside the temple, then they relaying these orders to other angels once they are no longer in the temple. Who could be the one initially giving orders inside the temple? God Himself would be my guess. And since Jesus is God, why not Him then?

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

In this passage the Son of man is obviously referring to Christ. Note what verse 39 indicates----and the reapers are the angels. It can't get any clearer than that. Now note in verse 41 this----The Son of man shall send forth his angels. And it also can't get any clearer than this either.

Based on all of the above then, though I realize the popular view is that the one sitting on the cloud in Revelation 14:14 is Christ Himself, I'm thinking it likely isn't unless Christ is really an angel, which then would mean He also sends forth Himself in Matthew 13:41 to gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, rather than sending His angels exactly like the text indicates.

Thank you that informative post.
Just to mention that the word "Temple<2411>" is never used in Revelation.

Everything is occurring inside and around the Sanctuary <3485> that was inside the Solomon's/Herod's Temple

Rev 16:
1 And I heard a great Voice out of the Sanctuary saying to the seven messengers, 'Go away, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God to the earth;'
17 And the seventh messenger did pour out his vial to the air, and there came forth a great Voice from the Sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne, saying, 'It hath finished!'

Generally I like to use a concordance to find particular phrases in the Bible and it has been helpful to me in Harmonizing.

I keyed in "another messenger" in YLT or key in "another angel" in other versions.
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
occurs 9 times in 9 verses in the YLT.

Zec 2:
1 And I lift up mine eyes, and look, and lo, a man, and in his hand a measuring line.
2 And I say, 'Whither are thou going?' And he saith unto me,
'To measure Jerusalem, to see how much is its breadth, and how much its length.' [Revelation 21:15-16]
3 And lo, the messenger who is speaking with me is going out, and another messenger is going out to meet him,

How many total angels are in Revelation?

Rev 7:2
and I saw another messenger going up from the rising of the sun, having a seal of the living God, and he did cry with a great voice to the four messengers, to whom it was given to injure the land and the sea, saying,

Rev 8:3
and another messenger did come, and he stood at the Altar, having a golden censer, and there was given to him much perfume, that he may give it to the prayers of all the saints upon the golden Altar that is before the Throne,

Rev 14
6 And I saw another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having good news age-during to proclaim to those dwelling upon the earth, and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people,
8 And another messenger did follow, saying, 'Fall, fall, did Babylon, the great city, because of the wine of the wrath of her whoredom she hath given to all nations to drink.'
15 and another messenger did come forth out of the Sanctuary crying in a great voice to him who is sitting upon the cloud, 'Send forth thy sickle and reap, because come to thee hath the hour of reaping, because ripe hath been the harvest of the earth;'
17 And another messenger did come forth out of the Sanctuary that is in the heaven, having -- he also -- a sharp sickle,
18 and another messenger did come forth out from the Altar, having authority over the fire,
and he called with a great cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying, 'Send forth thy sharp sickle,
and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because come to perfection have her grapes;'

Here it shows a messenger coming down out of heaven>

Rev 18:1
And after these things I saw another messenger coming down out of the heaven,
having great authority, and the earth was lightened from his glory,

 

[mkgal1]

Personally I'm not fully convinced that Jesus is seen here sitting on this cloud. .

That's good, because it's not literal. You seem to be limiting God to a physical being - and He's not limited or bound to physical realities.

 

[DavidPT]

That's good, because it's not literal. You seem to be limiting God to a physical being - and He's not limited or bound to physical realities.

Of course it's not literal, as in someone actually sitting on a literal cloud with a literal sharp sickle in hand. Yet the account still has to be logical and can't contradict other Scriptures like I provided where that indicated angels are the reapers and not Christ.