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Featured Evidence of Christs coming

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by shilohsfoal, Mar 4, 2019.

  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    thank you DavidPT

    I take it to mean he was going to fulfill Daniel 7:13-14. The son of man coming on the clouds refers to Jesus coming to the Father.

    Daniel 7:13 In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man
    coming with the clouds of heaven
    . He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence.


    I believe all men are appointed once to die and then face judgment.

    Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

    2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

    Thus fulfilling every eye will see him.

    Notice the present tense verb "is coming". It's not he will come (future tense) with the clouds, but he IS coming with the clouds. What is future tense is every eye WILL see him.


    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him

    Thus I believe Daniel 7 fulfilled as Jesus is coming with the clouds and I believe psalm 110 fulfilled as Jesus is sitting at the right hand, and I believe every eye will see him, as everyone will stand before him in judgment.
     
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  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    "]The two figures whom Christ has grasped and is pulling from tombs are Adam and Eve, symbolizing that his victory redeems all mankind, even back to the beginning. It also foreshadows the general resurrection of the body before the Final Judgment." :amen:

    John 5:27-30

    2 Timothy 4:1

    Revelation 11:18

    .
     
  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    For the sake of argument, let's say that we all agreed the following is the case.

    Jesus was physically born in the 1st century, thus physically dwelled among men---the first coming.

    Jesus physically comes back to the earth in the future to once again physically dwell among men---His 2nd coming.

    And in between these comings Jesus comes multiple times in nonliteral ways, such as some of you have been suggesting.

    Even so, there are still only two comings of Christ to where He dwells physically among men. One coming has already happened. The other coming is yet to occur. Why would it then be incorrect to label the latter as His 2nd coming, regardless that He may have come multiple times in nonliteral ways in between these 2 comings? So when folks such as myself speak of a first and 2nd coming, I'm meaning comings that involve Him physically visibly dwelling among men, like He did during the first coming.
     
  4. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    That is apocalyptic language and not literal.

    From the commentary of John Gill (1809)


    Shall the sun be darkened: not in a literal but in a figurative sense; and is to be understood not of the religion of the Jewish church; nor of the knowledge of the law among them, and the decrease of it; nor of the Gospel being obscured by heretics and false teachers; nor of the temple of Jerusalem, senses which are given into by one or another; but of the Shekinah, or the divine presence in the temple. The glory of God, who is a sun and a shield, filled the tabernacle, when it was reared up; and so it did the temple, when it was built and dedicated; in the most holy place, Jehovah took up his residence; here was the symbol of his presence, the mercy seat, and the two cherubim over it: and though God had for some time departed from this people, and a voice was heard in the temple before its destruction, saying, "let us go hence"; yet the token of the divine presence remained till the utter destruction of it; and then this sun was wholly darkened, and there was not so much as the outward symbol of it:

    and the moon shall not give her light; which also is to be explained in a figurative and metaphorical sense; and refers not to the Roman empire, which quickly began to diminish; nor to the city of Jerusalem; nor to the civil polity of the nation; but to the ceremonial law, the moon, the church is said to have under her feet, #Re 12:1 so called because the observance of new moons was one part of it, and the Jewish festivals were regulated by the moon; and especially, because like the moon, it was variable and changeable. Now, though this, in right, was abolished at the death of Christ, and ceased to give any true light, when he, the substance, was come; yet was kept up by the Jews, as long as their temple was standing; but when that was destroyed, the daily sacrifice, in fact, ceased, and so it has ever since; the Jews esteeming it unlawful to offer sacrifice in a strange land, or upon any other altar than that of Jerusalem; and are to this day without a sacrifice, and without an ephod:

    and the stars shall fall from heaven; which phrase, as it elsewhere intends the doctors of the church, and preachers falling off from purity of doctrine and conversation; so here it designs the Jewish Rabbins and doctors, who departed from the word of God, and set up their traditions above it, fell into vain and senseless interpretations of it, and into debates about things contained in their Talmud; the foundation of which began to be laid immediately upon their dispersion into other countries:

    and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; meaning all the ordinances of the legal dispensation; which shaking, and even removing of them, were foretold by #Hag 2:6 and explained by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, #Heb 12:26,27 whereby room and way were made for Gospel ordinances to take place, and be established; which shall not be shaken, so as to be removed, but remain till the second coming of Christ. The Jews themselves are sensible, and make heavy complaints of the great declensions and alterations among them, since the destruction of the temple; for after having taken notice of the death of several of their doctors, who died a little before, or after that; and that upon their death ceased the honour of the law, the splendour of wisdom, and the glory of the priesthood, they add {g};

    ``from the time that the temple was destroyed, the wise men, and sons of nobles, were put to shame, and they covered their heads; liberal men were reduced to poverty; and men of violence and calumny prevailed; and there were none that expounded, or inquired, or asked. R. Elezer the great, said, from the time the sanctuary were destroyed, the wise men began to be like Scribes, and the Scribes like to the Chazans, (or sextons that looked after the synagogues,) and the Chazans like to the common people, and the common people grew worse and worse, and there were none that inquired and asked;''

    that is, of the wise men there were no scholars, or very few that studied in the law. ~ Matthew 24:29 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
     
  5. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I don't understand your point. Have I EVER argued against that (that there will be a general resurrection at His return)? I HAVE argued against your choices of verses to support that, though.
     
  6. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I think I see your point. But......

    First of all......I'm not so convinced that when He returns it will be physically - I mean, as Jesus did (in a human body). That was for a specific purpose(s) - one reason was so that He may put death to death (and God is immortal - so that couldn't have occurred otherwise). I'm uncertain of what it will be like.

    I'm bristling against the use of the term "2nd Coming" because of all the other beliefs that get dragged into the discussion and assumed (like the rapture, for instance). Also.....by focusing on a future return, the "coming" that Jesus spoke us gets left out of the conversation (and THAT is what Jesus focused on - and there is so much glory in what was accomplished in that "coming" that I believe it's diminishing His glory to dismiss it).
     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    How about the verses in my last post?

    If not those, which verses do you believe I have taken out of context?


    .
     
  8. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    This thread is not about the final resurrection.
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Agreed

    I'm Not even sure even you fully agree with this....If He returns in the same physical body that left, how will every eye see Him? Folks In Oregon, where I am from, for example, would not be able to see with our naked eyes a single, physical human being descend from the clouds above Jerusalem and set foot on the Mount of Olives. There has to be some sort of "spiritual, nonphysical component" to render that event possible to be seen by every eye, (even the blind) right?

    And what about after He comes?
    Will we have to wait in line with the Billion or so other Christians just to get a few minutes "dwelling face to Face with Him"?

    Even if we each got one minute face to face alone with Jesus, a Billion of us would have to wait in line for 1970 years for every minute we got to spend "dwelling physically with him face to face".

    Today I can be face to Face with Jesus alone, or gathered with others in His name, any time I call upon him to dwell with me, anywhere in the world I am at that moment.

    Why would I want to trade that present reality of anytime, anywhere, one on one fellowship with my savior, for a future where I have to travel from Oregon to Jerusalem and stand in line for 2000 years just to get 1 minute to "snap a selfie" with Him?

    That makes no sense.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
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  10. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

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    Someone who gets it.
     
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  11. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

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    Here's a thought.

    Jesus comes again when his disciples (and the 72) return from preaching the kingdom in Galilee. He also comes again after he confronts Caiaphas.

    So how can his Parousia be physical, i.e., corporeal? He comes in power and spirit, like Elijah did. It's that simple.

    And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

    It's funny how futurists in some backdoor sort of way deny his divinity while he roamed the earth, that his coming could not possibly have occurred until after he had left.

    He was divine, folks. It's like you insist on forgetting that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  12. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Even if the events don't literally happen like described, that doesn't prove they can't be future still.

    Let me ask this then. If you didn't have commentators like John Gill to consult, are all of his conclusions conclusions you could have come to yourself without any outside influence of any kind? If some folks are borrowing some of their theology based on what past commentators have written, what if these past commentors are wrong about some of these things to begin with? What then? If you have 3 different commentators discussing the same subject but each coming to vastly different conclusions, well they all can't be correct then, can they? What then as well? It at least proves commentators are not always correct I guess.
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    A flesh and Blood Human Jesus dwelling among mankind made perfect sense back when there were only 12 Christians, or 70, or 500, or even 3000.... but Not one BILLION.
    The mechanics of that alone REQUIRE the spiritual component be the paramount feature to His literal presence (parousia) among men now.
     
  14. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    This is such an important point.

    It's amazing to me to learn of how He fulfilled prophecy (especially details about the timing of events, like how both Temples were destroyed on Tisha B’Av , the ninth of Av, a full day of fasting and mourning ~ Tisha B'Av History | My Jewish Learning ). But, instead of being amazed at what He's done.....so many Christians are sitting and waiting for what THEY believe things will look like in the future (and denying what He already did - just as He said He'd do).
     
  15. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I'm not sure why it matters - but, no - I couldn't arrive at these conclusions without outside sources because I wasn't there in the first century. I would have no idea about the destruction of Jerusalem - and, in fact, I only recently learned about the ties to that and what Jesus had been warning about (just a few months ago). I'm not ashamed to say that I use the commentary of others (mainly from the earlier church era) because God reveals truth to His church - not to individuals. If there are opposing conclusions - I'm going to lean towards the Orthodox beliefs, because they use church records and extrabiblical writings of those that WERE there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Paul does not agree with you.

    2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

    You cannot have a judgment of the dead without a resurrection of the dead...

    .
     
  17. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I didn't realize St. Paul was reading this thread.....
     
  18. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Jacks or better to open

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    Well.From now on would mean Caiaphas had to see jesuscoming in the clouds when Jesus was speaking to him.The word NOW is the present moment.
    So from now on,would mean from that moment on.
    Now Jesus had not asceded into the clouds unto after his resurection.
    So Caiaphas could have recieved a vision or a dream,seeing Christ sitting at the right hand of God and coming in the clouds.Its possible.
    But since Caiaphas died in 37 ad ,he did not see much of anything else after the cross.He wasnt around to see the disporah.
     
  19. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Jacks or better to open

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    So you are claiming Caiaphas saw Jesus ascend to the throne.
    Is that Caiaphas's testimony or are you Caiaphas's spokesman making a testimony for Caiaphas?
     
  20. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Jacks or better to open

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    You do know that most translations of mathew and mark dont say "from now on"dont you?
    Here is the king james vesion of the same versr.

    Matthew 26:64 KJV: Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


    It means from this moment forward.But other translations say in the future.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
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