Evidence from Sola Scriptura - right from the Bible itself

Root of Jesse

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God knew Adam and Eve were going to introduce sin to the world. He knew that all creation would be effected. He knew that he would graciously choose redemption by condescending to earth and ransom in those whom he chose.
God knew...and yet he still created. This is a mystery that God chose the path which directs some to hell and some to heaven. Love God or hate God, he is Sovereign and we...we are mere humans.
God knew, but didn't try to control it. He GAVE them their free will, because without free will, there is no love. That's different from creating Adam and Eve FOR THE PURPOSE of instituting free will.
 
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MennoSota

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God knew, but didn't try to control it. He GAVE them their free will, because without free will, there is no love. That's different from creating Adam and Eve FOR THE PURPOSE of instituting free will.
Adam and Eve did freely choose to sin.
Adam and Eve had no choice regarding God's judgment on their sin. They had no choice regarding entrance back into the garden when God cast them out.
We have no choice in entering God's family. God chooses to call us and make us His child or He chooses to leave us to our damnation. We don't have a free choice to make ourselves a family member. We don't adopt God by our choice.
Instead, we will run and hide from God everytime, unless God calls our name and tells us to come out from our hiding. God is not obligated to call us.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Adam and Eve did freely choose to sin.
Adam and Eve had no choice regarding God's judgment on their sin. They had no choice regarding entrance back into the garden when God cast them out.
We have no choice in entering God's family. God chooses to call us and make us His child or He chooses to leave us to our damnation. We don't have a free choice to make ourselves a family member. We don't adopt God by our choice.
Instead, we will run and hide from God everytime, unless God calls our name and tells us to come out from our hiding. God is not obligated to call us.
I disagree. We do have a choice in entering God's family. We, or our parents, choose baptism. That gives us entrance into His family. God calls everyone, but many don't listen.
 
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MennoSota

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I disagree. We do have a choice in entering God's family. We, or our parents, choose baptism. That gives us entrance into His family. God calls everyone, but many don't listen.

You have stated a heresy. Baptism does not save.
From Genesis to Revelation we see God choosing and God electing those whom he anoint as his. Adam and Eve are chosen. Abraham is chosen. Jacob is chosen. Joseph is chosen. Moses is chosen. The Judges are chosen. The King is chosen. The prophets are chosen. The priests are chosen. The Apostles are chosen. The saints are chosen.

God is consistent in His message.
You are adding your opinion with zero biblical support. Therefore, your opinion is rejected as heresy and an added comment, which has no biblical merit.

Please stop teaching a lie from hell.
 
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Root of Jesse

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You have stated a heresy. Baptism does not save.
From Genesis to Revelation we see God choosing and God electing those whom he anoint as his. Adam and Eve are chosen. Abraham is chosen. Jacob is chosen. Joseph is chosen. Moses is chosen. The Judges are chosen. The King is chosen. The prophets are chosen. The priests are chosen. The Apostles are chosen. The saints are chosen.

God is consistent in His message.
You are adding your opinion with zero biblical support. Therefore, your opinion is rejected as heresy and an added comment, which has no biblical merit.

Please stop teaching a lie from hell.
Your heresy is my truth. What did St. Peter say? "Baptism now saves you." God chose His people, but they turned away from Him time and again. God calls, and those who hear Him say "Here I am." IT requires a response.

The beginning of Romans 6 says, "Don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." This idea that we are made one with Christ through baptism is reiterated by Paul in Colossians 2:12, and in Galatians 3:27 he likens baptism to "being clothed with Christ."

Furthermore, the fuller idea of salvation being a union with Christ fits with much more of the New Testament, which speaks time and again of being in a profound union with the living Lord—rather than simply being saved or justified by a personal belief in Christ.

The sacrament of baptism takes the believer from the simple repentance, belief, and profession of faith into a more mysterious identification with Christ, in which he is the vine, and we are the branches, in which we die with him so that we might rise to new life. Baptism is not simply the addition of a meaningful symbol to the act of faith: It is an action which takes the believer’s whole body, soul, and spirit into a new relationship with God.
 
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MennoSota

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You cannot repent as an infant.
In the Bible, baptism is always a response that comes after God's call and man's response to that call.
The baptism that saves is the Holy Spirit's baptism when God places us into His family.
It is always God's work that saves us. It is never, I repeat, never, our choice that saves us. Never.
Why do you ignore the entire book of Romans and the book of Ephesians? Why do you ignore Galatians? Why do you ignore the Bible in order to cling to yourself as being the control agent?
 
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simonthezealot

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You cannot repent as an infant.
In the Bible, baptism is always a response that comes after God's call and man's response to that call.
The baptism that saves is the Holy Spirit's baptism when God places us into His family.
It is always God's work that saves us. It is never, I repeat, never, our choice that saves us. Never.
Why do you ignore the entire book of Romans and the book of Ephesians? Why do you ignore Galatians? Why do you ignore the Bible in order to cling to yourself as being the control agent?
Right on my fellow Mennosotan
...Nice weather we're having eh?
 
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Root of Jesse

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You cannot repent as an infant.
In the Bible, baptism is always a response that comes after God's call and man's response to that call.
The baptism that saves is the Holy Spirit's baptism when God places us into His family.
It is always God's work that saves us. It is never, I repeat, never, our choice that saves us. Never.
Why do you ignore the entire book of Romans and the book of Ephesians? Why do you ignore Galatians? Why do you ignore the Bible in order to cling to yourself as being the control agent?
You can't feed yourself, either, but someone responsible for your life will feed you, and decide what vaccinations you'll get. And whether you should be baptized. You can respond later in your education process. The Holy Spirit is involved in all our sacraments.
God's work does save us, but we must respond to God's call.
A priest I know writes this:
Travel the Romans Road

I lived in England for 25 years and had little contact with Baptists. Now our family has moved to South Carolina, and recently two Fundamentalist Baptists came around to discuss theology with me. They proceeded to take me along the famous "Romans Road." This is a simple Evangelical process that leads a person to salvation through the most basic Christian truths taken from St. Paul’s epistle to the Romans.

The first verse is Romans 3:23, "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." After establishing that you are a sinner, in Romans 6:23 St. Paul reminds you that "the wages of sin is death." The second part of that verse gives the promise that "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:8 tells us that "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." Romans 10:13 says that "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved," and Romans 10:9 says that "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved."

My visitors took me through the Romans Road and were a little nonplussed when I agreed with them on every point. I then asked them why they didn’t go any further along the road. They asked what I meant. "St. Paul goes on to say just how this salvation happens," I replied. "He gives us an objective and solid way to know that we really have been made one with Christ. But first, we agree, don’t we, that salvation means we die with Christ so that we may have new life?"

They agreed.

"How does this happen?" I asked.

"You have to accept Jesus. Believe in him in your heart and confess with your lips."

"Yes, we Catholics believe that is necessary, but there is more to it than that. In addition to believing and confessing with our lips, we need to be baptized. At the beginning of Romans 6, St. Paul actually explains how we share in the death and new life of Christ: It is through baptism."

The beginning of Romans 6 says, "Don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." This idea that we are made one with Christ through baptism is reiterated by Paul in Colossians 2:12, and in Galatians 3:27 he likens baptism to "being clothed with Christ."

Furthermore, the fuller idea of salvation being a union with Christ fits with much more of the New Testament, which speaks time and again of being in a profound union with the living Lord—rather than simply being saved or justified by a personal belief in Christ.

The sacrament of baptism takes the believer from the simple repentance, belief, and profession of faith into a more mysterious identification with Christ, in which he is the vine, and we are the branches, in which we die with him so that we might rise to new life. Baptism is not simply the addition of a meaningful symbol to the act of faith: It is an action which takes the believer’s whole body, soul, and spirit into a new relationship with God.

Born of Water and the Spirit

The passage in Romans 6 (backed up by Colossians 2) is not the only evidence from the New Testament that baptism is effective and therefore necessary for salvation. The apostles Peter and John confirm St. Paul’s teaching. In Acts 2, when St. Peter is preaching at Pentecost, his hearers ask what they must do to be saved, and he replies, "Repent and be baptized." In 1 Peter 3, Noah’s ark is referred to as a type of baptism, and Peter writes, "In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20-21).

The most famous New Testament evidence for the efficacy and necessity of baptism is in John’s Gospel. When Nicodemus comes to visit Jesus by night, Jesus says that a person cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born again. Nicodemus asks how a man might enter again into his mother’s womb and Jesus corrects him, saying, "No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:3-5). From the earliest days of the Church this passage has been understood to refer to baptism, and this interpretation is virtually unanimous down through history.

However, many Evangelicals have a peculiar interpretation for this verse. They say that the "water" in the verse does not refer to baptism, but to the amniotic fluid of the mother’s womb. This is the "water" that breaks at the point of physical birth. Therefore they believe when Jesus refers to "water and the Spirit," he is referring to physical birth and spiritual re-birth. This might be a possible interpretation as the previous verse was a discussion of a man entering again into his mother’s womb.

However, one must look at the whole passage in its context. It is universally agreed that John’s Gospel is the most "sacramental" in its approach. The passages of Jesus’ life and teachings are put together in such a way as to connect with, and support, the sacramental life of the early Church. In the verses that immediately follow Jesus’ words that one must be "born again of water and the Spirit," Jesus talks about "men loving darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil" (verse 19) and that whoever "lives by the truth comes to the light" (verse 21). The references to light point to the other main symbol of the baptismal ceremony—the lighted candle. If there is any doubt, the very next story in John chapter 3 shows Jesus immediately going out with his disciples baptizing.

Is It Enough to Believe and Confess?

As soon as you begin to speak about the necessity of baptism, an Evangelical will pull out some favorite verses and favorite arguments. They will go back to Romans 10:9-10, "If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." They will point out that this verse does not say that one must be baptized. The reply is that belief and profession of faithare necessary, but the whole witness of the New Testament shows us that baptism is necessary as well.

Evangelicals may also refer to the story of the Philippian jailer in Acts 16. The jailer cries out, "What must I do to be saved?" and Paul and Silas reply, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved—you and your household" (Acts 16:31). It seems there is no demand for baptism. However, actions speak louder than words because verse 33 says that "immediately they were baptized." Baptism therefore seems to be the way one makes the faith commitment. This is just one example from the Acts of the Apostles where faith is accompanied by baptism, and it is assumed that both are necessary. Two other clear accounts are Philip’s encounter with the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, and Peter’s immediate baptism of Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. The pattern in Acts is consistent: preaching, repentance of the hearers, belief in Christ, and immediate baptism. Why would this be the case if the apostles did not believe that baptism was both effective and necessary for salvation?

The Evangelical who does not want to accept the efficacy and necessity of baptism has a few more objections. What about people who do not have the opportunity to be baptized? He will bring up the good thief on the cross. The thief couldn’t be baptized, but Jesus says, "Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). This is the perfect opportunity to explain two other.aspects of Catholic belief.

Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire

First, you can explain that the Catholic Church does not believe that baptism is magic: Simply having water poured over one’s head with the Trinitarian formula does not mean a person is instantly saved forever. Baptism incorporates the individual into the Body of Christ, and within the whole life of the Church an individual’s baptism must be accompanied by faith. The developing faith of the individual is empowered by the grace of baptism, and nurtured by the whole Church, but if the Christian faith is rejected or never positively affirmed, the baptism is not magically effective.

For difficult cases such as the good thief, it should be explained that the Catholic Church has always taught that there is a "baptism of blood" and a "baptism of desire." The baptism of blood refers to those who were not baptized but were martyred for Christ. They are incorporated, through their own death, into the mystical body of Christ through a mystical sharing in his sacrificial death.

The baptism of desire refers to those individuals with faith in Christ who would be baptized if they had the opportunity and if they truly understood what baptism means. It applies to those who, due to extraordinary circumstances, do not have access to water for baptism. But the New Testament indicates that what we call "baptism of desire" is the case for the Old Testament saints. Noah and his family were "saved through water" in the flood, (2 Pet. 2:5) and the Hebrew children were baptized "into Moses in the cloud and the Red Sea" (1 Cor. 10:2). This suggests that baptism of desire may also extend to those who have pre-Christian faith or to non-Christians who have faith according to the level of their knowledge, but have never heard the Christian gospel.

It may also apply to those who have faith in Christ, but have not been baptized because they truly and sincerely (because of false teaching received in goodwill) do not believe that baptism is necessary. Even in these cases, however, it should be understood that the Church teaches that such individuals "may" be saved, not that they are saved.

Incorporate It

The most difficult thing for an Evangelical to accept in a conversation about the sacraments is that God actually uses physical means and liturgical ceremonies to dispense his grace and administer salvation. The typical Evangelical is heavily conditioned to dismiss all physical components of religion as useless and distracting "man-made traditions."

However, the theory doesn’t stand up in practice. It cannot because we have bodies that are in time and space which need a way to respond physically to spiritual realities. It is not very difficult to demonstrate that they believe physical actions and religious ceremonies can be useful for salvation—otherwise why have evangelistic rallies with emotional music and altar calls? Why encourage people to "put up their hand, get up out of their seat, and come forward?" It’s because they realize that we need physical actions, religious ceremonies, and rituals to help us accept the gift of salvation that is being offered, and they must accept that it is through these physical responses that salvation is accepted, and therefore that the physical responses are effective and necessary.

If they can see that God uses their preaching and their traditions and religious rituals to bring people to salvation, then it is not too much of a leap for them to see that the Catholic rituals are another physical and active way for individuals to accept the gift of salvation. Of course, the sacraments are more than a practical, man-made religious tool. The sacraments are not done by us for God, but by God for us. However, moving a non-Catholic to the point where he accepts that a sacrament is useful is the first step towards accepting that it is necessary, and that is just one step away from the acceptance that they are not just man-made, practical religious devices, but divinely instituted initiatives that incorporate the soul into the mystical Body of Christ.
 
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MennoSota

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All that you copied and pasted may be used of God to draw you to Himself. However, if God does not make you alive, you will forever be dead in your trespasses and sins. (Ephesians 2:1-10)
There has never once been a dead man who ever made himself alive and chose God. Not once. Quit deluding yourself with the idea that you are in control. Your not. Accept it and live joyfully in God's sovereign right hand.
 
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Root of Jesse

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All that you copied and pasted may be used of God to draw you to Himself. However, if God does not make you alive, you will forever be dead in your trespasses and sins. (Ephesians 2:1-10)
There has never once been a dead man who ever made himself alive and chose God. Not once. Quit deluding yourself with the idea that you are in control. Your not. Accept it and live joyfully in God's sovereign right hand.
Where do you get the idea that I think I'm in control??? I do, though, have free will, I heard God calling, and ANSWERED HIM AFFIRMATIVELY. I did have the choice to ignore him, as I had done for years.
 
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MennoSota

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Where do you get the idea that I think I'm in control??? I do, though, have free will, I heard God calling, and ANSWERED HIM AFFIRMATIVELY. I did have the choice to ignore him, as I had done for years.
You responded...after He made you alive. This is always the case. You didn't choose God. God chose you and you responded, like Lazerus when Jesus raised him from the dead. It's all God. You can't raise yourself from the dead and dead men can't choose.
 
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Root of Jesse

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You responded...after He made you alive. This is always the case. You didn't choose God. God chose you and you responded, like Lazerus when Jesus raised him from the dead. It's all God. You can't raise yourself from the dead and dead men can't choose.
God made me alive when he baptized me as an infant. I was alive, because baptism is a permanent mark on a soul. Still, I walked away of my own free will, like the Prodigal Son. I also came back of my own free will, like the Prodigal Son. God was calling to my heart all those times, but I ignored him. Finally I came to my senses, was willing to humble myself before God and accept whatever mercy he would give me. His mercy was much more than what I expected. You act like the brother who was miffed, to say the least, that the father would welcome the other son back with open arms.

I never have said or suggested that I could raise myself or anything of the like. That's you reading me wrong.
 
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MennoSota

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God made me alive when he baptized me as an infant.

There is ZERO Biblical support for your statement. You are making it up from the figment of your own imagination.

Your statement, above, is a heresy that leads many people to a false sense of salvation. It is the same false sense of relationship with God that the Jews had. They imagined that their circumcision in the flesh made them spiritually alive and culturally superior to their neighbors.
Jesus completely debunked that opinion. Paul tells us that not all Israel is Israel. The Israel of God is those who are made alive, by God, when He gifts them faith. It is not by infant baptism, a physical act, which is devoid of spiritual power. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Jesse, you have missed the mark on this issue and you are teaching a non-biblical view of salvation. Stop it.
 
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Root of Jesse

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There is ZERO Biblical support for your statement. You are making it up from the figment of your own imagination.
It's a figment of your imagination that families, or large groups of people didn't include children.
Your statement, above, is a heresy that leads many people to a false sense of salvation. It is the same false sense of relationship with God that the Jews had. They imagined that their circumcision in the flesh made them spiritually alive and culturally superior to their neighbors.
If this is true, then the Bible contains heresy. Peter himself, our first pope, said Baptism now saves you. But we don't believe 'once saved, always saved'. It's a life-long process, begun with baptism.
Jesus completely debunked that opinion. Paul tells us that not all Israel is Israel. The Israel of God is those who are made alive, by God, when He gifts them faith. It is not by infant baptism, a physical act, which is devoid of spiritual power. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
It's not devoid of spirit if the Holy Spirit is the one called to save the person.
Jesse, you have missed the mark on this issue and you are teaching a non-biblical view of salvation. Stop it.
Nope, you're wrong. I know what I'm talking about. You sound like my mother, who tried to apologize to me for having me baptized as a child. Of course, she thinks that baptism just gets you wet.
 
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MennoSota

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It's a figment of your imagination that families, or large groups of people didn't include children.
If this is true, then the Bible contains heresy. Peter himself, our first pope, said Baptism now saves you. But we don't believe 'once saved, always saved'. It's a life-long process, begun with baptism.
It's not devoid of spirit if the Holy Spirit is the one called to save the person.

Nope, you're wrong. I know what I'm talking about. You sound like my mother, who tried to apologize to me for having me baptized as a child. Of course, she thinks that baptism just gets you wet.

I've explained your wrong interpretation of Peters comments. Peter is referring to the Holy Spirit, not water baptism. (Your first paragraph is just silly.)

As for the rest, you provided...ZERO biblical support, just as I said you would do.

You are placing your hope in a non-biblical figment of thought. Stop it.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I've explained your wrong interpretation of Peters comments. Peter is referring to the Holy Spirit, not water baptism. (Your first paragraph is just silly.)
And I've explained yours.
As for the rest, you provided...ZERO biblical support, just as I said you would do.
I'm not Bible alone, brother.
You are placing your hope in a non-biblical figment of thought. Stop it.
As we're allowed to do.
 
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MennoSota

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And I've explained yours. I'm not Bible alone, brother.As we're allowed to do.
You add false teaching to the Bible. That's heresy. You can't get around what you are doing.
What is shocking is that you contradict the Bible and you don't care. Stop it.
 
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Erose

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You add false teaching to the Bible. That's heresy. You can't get around what you are doing.
What is shocking is that you contradict the Bible and you don't care. Stop it.
You really have to work on your tact here. If not no one is going to take you seriously. Quite honestly from my point of view and others, what you are doing is applying you false understandings on top of Scripture, thus what you are professing is heresy. You cannot get around that fact.

My point in this whole thread, is that obviously no one reads Scripture in a vacuum. Those that do, don't understand what they are reading anyway, or will get grossly messed up ideas out what they read. So no matter how much Sola Scripturist want to deny the fact, you all read Scripture through the lens of your faith tradition.

If anything this conversation just verifies exactly this point.
 
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Root of Jesse

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You add false teaching to the Bible. That's heresy. You can't get around what you are doing.
What is shocking is that you contradict the Bible and you don't care. Stop it.
I haven't, and my Church hasn't added any false teaching to the Bible. Nor have I or we contradicted the Bible. You're starting to sound like Donald Trump, accusing, but never proving. You stop it.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I haven't, and my Church hasn't added any false teaching to the Bible. Nor have I or we contradicted the Bible. You're starting to sound like Donald Trump, accusing, but never proving. You stop it.
RoJ and MennaSota, each to your corners... it's obvious to the rest of us you guys don't see this the same and won't convince either one so before things get too involved, let's move along.
 
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