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Since my posts were removed from the other thread I thought I would start a thread which examines scientific and scriptural evidence for a special creation. Realize of course that to begin we will need to acknowledge that evolution of any kind can only occur where there is already life to begin with - but where did that life arise from - a natural process set by God which to this day does not occur or through a special creation as revealed to us in scripture.
To begin I will repost what I had on the other thread but in further detail - this time with references.
The verse seems very dogmatic, in that we are without excuse if we believe in processes that reflects not the eternal power and Godhead of our creator - as evolution clearly does not. What Paul says about the evidence of God in his creation resides not simply at the macroscopic level of His creation, but very much at the microscopic level for the further we dig into the mysteries of life we find that it is infinite much like God is infinite. To make my point I will take you now to the microscopic world of amino acids and enzymes. Amino acids and enzymes are the building blocks of life and yet we fail to realize that they are more than just that for they show the handiwork of our great Creator.
One chemist has calculated the immense odds against amino acids ever combining to form the necessary proteins by undirected means. He estimated the probability to be more than 1 in 10^67 against even a small protein forming by time and chance, in an ideal mixture of chemicals, in an ideal atmosphere, and given up to 100 billion years (many times longer than the assumed age of the earth). What do mathematicians generally agree about such odds? That, statistically speaking, any odds beyond 1 in 10^50 have a zero probability of ever happening. Imagine that!
- Erbrich, Paul "On the Probability of the Emergence of a Protein with a Particular Function," Acta Biotheoretica, Vol. 34 (1985), pp. 53-80
Dr. Sidney Fox and Dr. Stanley Miller (evolutionists of course) were among the first scientists who attempted to prove abiogenesis. They designed a Pyrex apparatus containing methane, ammonia, and water vapor, but no oxygen and passed through the mixture electricity to simulate lightning strikes. What did they managed to create? No life, but the process did combine the mixture to form several of the 20 amino acids which are the building blocks of life.
The exact contents of which is as follow:
85% of the product was a brown, insoluble tar or "polymer" made of hydrocarbons and other atoms interconnected in an irregular mass, with no known biological relevance to the origin of life. A chemist in a laboratory might be able to set up the right conditions to convert the "tarry sludge" into biogenic compounds such as amino acids, nucleotides and lipids, but there is as yet no indication that such conditions may have existed anywhere in nature.
4% of the product was the simplest and smallest of the carboxylic acids, formic acid (comprised of just five atoms) which is found in good concentrations in ants, but has no known role in the origin of life.
2.7% was equal parts (0.9% each) of three more caboxylic acids(not amino acids), which are different arrangements of 13 atoms (3 carbons, 7 hydrogens, 1 nitrogen, and 2 oxygens), and have no known or conjectured relevance to the origin of life.
2.1% was glycine, which is possibly significant, because it is one of the 20 amino acids, which are used in biology to construct the proteins of living organisms, glycine is the simplest.
0.85% was the Left-handed form of the amino acid alanine. Alanine is also one of biology's 20 amino acids, the second simplest, which is produced in both of it's mirror-image forms (of stereo-chemistry), where only the left-handed form is used by living things, 0.85% of the product was the right-handed form which is also produced, but is destructive to the proper construction of life.
0.5% was acetic acid, another carboxylic acid, which gives vinegar its pungency, but which is (so far as anyone knows) irrelevant to origin of life processes,
0.026% was another simple amino acid (in its useful L-form), which is only 260 parts per million of the product.
Several more of life's 20 amino acids were produced in ever smaller trace amounts, and only half of each of those trace amounts is the useful L-form.
Recently, trace amounts of the five bases of DNA and RNA have been detected ...but only about 2 parts per million. On the other hand, even though the chemicals were present for the production of a "nucleoside" (which is the combination of a DNA base plus a sugar), no nucleosides have ever formed in any amount. Furthermore (of course), a nucleotide has never formed, which would require the addition of a phosphate onto the nucleoside and the nucleotide is actually the basic building block of DNA and RNA.
- Ref. ORIGINS: A Skeptic's Guide to the Creation of Life, by Robert Shapiro,
N.Y., Summit, '86, p.104,108.
But does this prove that life could eventually have arisen in some soup struck by lightning? No! The results actually weakened the case for life emerging by this method. The mixture of amino acids and other simple chemicals produced was not sufficient for producing life. Why? Because all life that we know today consists of amino acids that are exclusively of the "left-handed" form and the gunk that was synthesized was racemized or of both right and left handedness.
From here on is what lucaspa (bold) responded to my post, the italics are mine:
Throughout the living world proteins are the building blocks of life and yet there is no known life that can use a combination of both "right-handed" and "left-handed" amino acids.
That is untrue. Nearly all bacteria have some right handed (D-) amino acids in their cell walls.
Of course it isnt entirely true, one that I know of is Gramicidin A. It is a membrane protein with 15 amino acids that are alternating l- and d- forms (or a glycine). The sequence(excluding terminations) is Val(l)- Gly-Ala(l)-Leu(d)-Ala(l)-Val(d)-Val(l)-Val(d)-Trp(l)-Leu(d)-Trp(l)-Leu(d)-Trp(l)- Leu(d)-Trp(l).
The alternating l and d form amino acids exists as part of the bacterias cell membrane and hardly resembles true cytoplasmic or endoplasmic proteins which are essential for the function of that organism which I might add are several hundred amino acids in length not a mere - 15.
It is interesting to note that gramicidin harvested from the bacillus brevis bacteria is used primarily as an external antibiotic and antiseptic drug as it is highly toxic and cannot be taken internally. This leads to the obvious conclusion that it serves only as a defensive barrier and would be lethal or useless elsewhere except as part of what it was originally designed for.
Directed protein synthesis currently uses all L-amino acids but it doesn't have to. You can make protocells (living cells made from proteins formed by chemical reactions) from mixtures a DL- amino acids.
Currently lucas? Any solid evidence that it has not always been the case? Or are you now merely speculating - again? Can you lucas, make protocells? For if you have somewhere in your kitchen cooked up some living cells from basic substances - then a Nobel Prize awaits you! I may be a simple science teacher lucas, but Im not that gullible!
Many proteinoids have been made from mixtures of DL amino acids. When some of the reactant amino acids are of the L configuration, much racemization occurs. This racemization, though substantial, is, however, incomplete under conditions used for the production of proteinoids. A typical proteinoid made from eighteen amino acids had [an optical activity of -5.6 degrees]. Under the usual conditions for pyrocondensation, L-aspartic acid is entirely racemized, while L-glutamic acid, L-leucine, and L-isoleucine are only partly racemized (Fox and Harada, 1960; Fox et al., 196; Rohlfing, 1967a). (Molecular Evolution and the Origin of Life, Sidney W. Fox and Klaus Dose, W. H. Freeman and Co., 1972, p163-164)
Of course it is also known that proteinoids create by such methods as that of Fox and Miller are of the wrong bonding.
K studies using nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) have shown that thermal proteinoids have scarce resemblance to natural peptidic material because [beta], [gamma], and [epsilon] bonds largely predominate over [alpha]-peptide bonds" (Charles B. Thaxton [Ph.D. in Chemistry], Walter L. Bradley [Ph.D. in Materials Science], Roger L. Olsen [BS in Chemistry, Ph.D. in Geochemistry], The Mystery of Life's Origin: Reassessing Current Theories, Lewis and Stanley, 1984, p155-156).
Adding even one "right-handed" amino acid to a chain of "left-handed" amino acids can and will destroy the entire chain of protein.
This is one of the problems with "evidence for" creationism. So much of it simply consists of incorrect assertions. The "evidence" evaporates under scrutiny.
Of course we can pretty much trust your scrutiny any day, right lucas? And yet cell metabolism requires a lock and key fit to such an extent that a single d form amino acid existing in a chain of l form amino acids prevents the hand and glove fit that is required for metabolism to occur. Since cell metabolism requires that long chains of l form amino acids fit into its respective l form gloves - to the exact fit - any adventitious d form will bring metabolism to a complete halt. It is no surprise that life cannot use d forms as it will never produce the glove like fit required for metabolism.
"D-amino acid-containing peptides with biological activities have been isolated from invertebrates and amphibians, and partial racemization of amino acid residues in mammalian peptides associated with aging and diseases have been discussed. Here, we review the amino acid configuration determination methods in these peptides and recent progress of simultaneous determination method for sequence and configuration of amino acid residues. The applicability of C-terminus sequence analysis and mass spectrometry to configuration determination of amino acids is also discussed.
Again I do admire your bankrupt attempts at quoting that which is neither proved nor supported by what is actually observed as it is quite amusing.
Only through highly advanced, intelligently controlled processes can these two forms be separated - no where has this taken any place anywhere without intelligent intervention.
A non-intelligent process to get only one of the enantiomers (one of the forms of amino acids). Basically, the "evidence" presented is basically the Argument from Ignorance.
I would say theistic evolutionists are the ignorant ones, as they simply refuse to accept what the data tells them and most importantly what the word of God tells them.
Nature 2001 Feb 15;409(6822):797-801
Comment in:
Nature. 2001 Feb 15;409(6822):777-8.
A chiroselective peptide replicator.
Saghatelian A, Yokobayashi Y, Soltani K, Ghadiri MR.
Department of Chemistry, and Skaggs Institute for Chemical Biology, The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, California92037, USA.
Yes of course, Nature, a very unbiased naturalistic periodical indeed! And yet the proof is in the pudding. So dont just give titles and authors and a brief quote, explain to all of us lucas - better yet explain to us what the articles say to support your stand. Or are you simply pasting your references as most evolutionists I come across do instead of dealing with the issue?
"The origin of homochirality in living systems is often attributed to the generation of enantiomeric differences in a pool of chiral prebiotic molecules, but none of the possible physiochemical processes considered [a lot of nonsense in between here taken out] support the idea that self-replicating polypeptides could have played a key role in the origin of homochirality on Earth"
Now doesnt that sound much better? I just love your cut and paste jobs lucas. There is no proof that such even occurred.
Now, their "designed" is actually simply natural selection and not intelligent intervention.
Natural selection of what? What is there to select from where there is nothing to select. Wishful thinking at its most imaginative!
Even if this overwhelming obstacle did not exist or can be overcome, far greater problems remain for the chance synthesis of life. There are many reasons why the amino acids would disintegrate or never form in the first place, but life requires much more than just simple amino acids, it also requires proteins and DNA coding or instruction to assemble all the amino acids that reside within a living organism.
Life did not come about by chance. That's the fallacy. Life originated by chemistry.
According to evolution it is by chance. The fallacy is your assertions that it did when scripture tells us otherwise. And no, life was an act of God, not the result of a process which produces nothing - even to this day.
To begin I will repost what I had on the other thread but in further detail - this time with references.
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20 KJV
The verse seems very dogmatic, in that we are without excuse if we believe in processes that reflects not the eternal power and Godhead of our creator - as evolution clearly does not. What Paul says about the evidence of God in his creation resides not simply at the macroscopic level of His creation, but very much at the microscopic level for the further we dig into the mysteries of life we find that it is infinite much like God is infinite. To make my point I will take you now to the microscopic world of amino acids and enzymes. Amino acids and enzymes are the building blocks of life and yet we fail to realize that they are more than just that for they show the handiwork of our great Creator.
One chemist has calculated the immense odds against amino acids ever combining to form the necessary proteins by undirected means. He estimated the probability to be more than 1 in 10^67 against even a small protein forming by time and chance, in an ideal mixture of chemicals, in an ideal atmosphere, and given up to 100 billion years (many times longer than the assumed age of the earth). What do mathematicians generally agree about such odds? That, statistically speaking, any odds beyond 1 in 10^50 have a zero probability of ever happening. Imagine that!
- Erbrich, Paul "On the Probability of the Emergence of a Protein with a Particular Function," Acta Biotheoretica, Vol. 34 (1985), pp. 53-80
Dr. Sidney Fox and Dr. Stanley Miller (evolutionists of course) were among the first scientists who attempted to prove abiogenesis. They designed a Pyrex apparatus containing methane, ammonia, and water vapor, but no oxygen and passed through the mixture electricity to simulate lightning strikes. What did they managed to create? No life, but the process did combine the mixture to form several of the 20 amino acids which are the building blocks of life.
The exact contents of which is as follow:
85% of the product was a brown, insoluble tar or "polymer" made of hydrocarbons and other atoms interconnected in an irregular mass, with no known biological relevance to the origin of life. A chemist in a laboratory might be able to set up the right conditions to convert the "tarry sludge" into biogenic compounds such as amino acids, nucleotides and lipids, but there is as yet no indication that such conditions may have existed anywhere in nature.
4% of the product was the simplest and smallest of the carboxylic acids, formic acid (comprised of just five atoms) which is found in good concentrations in ants, but has no known role in the origin of life.
2.7% was equal parts (0.9% each) of three more caboxylic acids(not amino acids), which are different arrangements of 13 atoms (3 carbons, 7 hydrogens, 1 nitrogen, and 2 oxygens), and have no known or conjectured relevance to the origin of life.
2.1% was glycine, which is possibly significant, because it is one of the 20 amino acids, which are used in biology to construct the proteins of living organisms, glycine is the simplest.
0.85% was the Left-handed form of the amino acid alanine. Alanine is also one of biology's 20 amino acids, the second simplest, which is produced in both of it's mirror-image forms (of stereo-chemistry), where only the left-handed form is used by living things, 0.85% of the product was the right-handed form which is also produced, but is destructive to the proper construction of life.
0.5% was acetic acid, another carboxylic acid, which gives vinegar its pungency, but which is (so far as anyone knows) irrelevant to origin of life processes,
0.026% was another simple amino acid (in its useful L-form), which is only 260 parts per million of the product.
Several more of life's 20 amino acids were produced in ever smaller trace amounts, and only half of each of those trace amounts is the useful L-form.
Recently, trace amounts of the five bases of DNA and RNA have been detected ...but only about 2 parts per million. On the other hand, even though the chemicals were present for the production of a "nucleoside" (which is the combination of a DNA base plus a sugar), no nucleosides have ever formed in any amount. Furthermore (of course), a nucleotide has never formed, which would require the addition of a phosphate onto the nucleoside and the nucleotide is actually the basic building block of DNA and RNA.
- Ref. ORIGINS: A Skeptic's Guide to the Creation of Life, by Robert Shapiro,
N.Y., Summit, '86, p.104,108.
But does this prove that life could eventually have arisen in some soup struck by lightning? No! The results actually weakened the case for life emerging by this method. The mixture of amino acids and other simple chemicals produced was not sufficient for producing life. Why? Because all life that we know today consists of amino acids that are exclusively of the "left-handed" form and the gunk that was synthesized was racemized or of both right and left handedness.
From here on is what lucaspa (bold) responded to my post, the italics are mine:
Throughout the living world proteins are the building blocks of life and yet there is no known life that can use a combination of both "right-handed" and "left-handed" amino acids.
That is untrue. Nearly all bacteria have some right handed (D-) amino acids in their cell walls.
Of course it isnt entirely true, one that I know of is Gramicidin A. It is a membrane protein with 15 amino acids that are alternating l- and d- forms (or a glycine). The sequence(excluding terminations) is Val(l)- Gly-Ala(l)-Leu(d)-Ala(l)-Val(d)-Val(l)-Val(d)-Trp(l)-Leu(d)-Trp(l)-Leu(d)-Trp(l)- Leu(d)-Trp(l).
The alternating l and d form amino acids exists as part of the bacterias cell membrane and hardly resembles true cytoplasmic or endoplasmic proteins which are essential for the function of that organism which I might add are several hundred amino acids in length not a mere - 15.
It is interesting to note that gramicidin harvested from the bacillus brevis bacteria is used primarily as an external antibiotic and antiseptic drug as it is highly toxic and cannot be taken internally. This leads to the obvious conclusion that it serves only as a defensive barrier and would be lethal or useless elsewhere except as part of what it was originally designed for.
Directed protein synthesis currently uses all L-amino acids but it doesn't have to. You can make protocells (living cells made from proteins formed by chemical reactions) from mixtures a DL- amino acids.
Currently lucas? Any solid evidence that it has not always been the case? Or are you now merely speculating - again? Can you lucas, make protocells? For if you have somewhere in your kitchen cooked up some living cells from basic substances - then a Nobel Prize awaits you! I may be a simple science teacher lucas, but Im not that gullible!
Many proteinoids have been made from mixtures of DL amino acids. When some of the reactant amino acids are of the L configuration, much racemization occurs. This racemization, though substantial, is, however, incomplete under conditions used for the production of proteinoids. A typical proteinoid made from eighteen amino acids had [an optical activity of -5.6 degrees]. Under the usual conditions for pyrocondensation, L-aspartic acid is entirely racemized, while L-glutamic acid, L-leucine, and L-isoleucine are only partly racemized (Fox and Harada, 1960; Fox et al., 196; Rohlfing, 1967a). (Molecular Evolution and the Origin of Life, Sidney W. Fox and Klaus Dose, W. H. Freeman and Co., 1972, p163-164)
Of course it is also known that proteinoids create by such methods as that of Fox and Miller are of the wrong bonding.
K studies using nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) have shown that thermal proteinoids have scarce resemblance to natural peptidic material because [beta], [gamma], and [epsilon] bonds largely predominate over [alpha]-peptide bonds" (Charles B. Thaxton [Ph.D. in Chemistry], Walter L. Bradley [Ph.D. in Materials Science], Roger L. Olsen [BS in Chemistry, Ph.D. in Geochemistry], The Mystery of Life's Origin: Reassessing Current Theories, Lewis and Stanley, 1984, p155-156).
Adding even one "right-handed" amino acid to a chain of "left-handed" amino acids can and will destroy the entire chain of protein.
This is one of the problems with "evidence for" creationism. So much of it simply consists of incorrect assertions. The "evidence" evaporates under scrutiny.
Of course we can pretty much trust your scrutiny any day, right lucas? And yet cell metabolism requires a lock and key fit to such an extent that a single d form amino acid existing in a chain of l form amino acids prevents the hand and glove fit that is required for metabolism to occur. Since cell metabolism requires that long chains of l form amino acids fit into its respective l form gloves - to the exact fit - any adventitious d form will bring metabolism to a complete halt. It is no surprise that life cannot use d forms as it will never produce the glove like fit required for metabolism.
"D-amino acid-containing peptides with biological activities have been isolated from invertebrates and amphibians, and partial racemization of amino acid residues in mammalian peptides associated with aging and diseases have been discussed. Here, we review the amino acid configuration determination methods in these peptides and recent progress of simultaneous determination method for sequence and configuration of amino acid residues. The applicability of C-terminus sequence analysis and mass spectrometry to configuration determination of amino acids is also discussed.
Again I do admire your bankrupt attempts at quoting that which is neither proved nor supported by what is actually observed as it is quite amusing.
Only through highly advanced, intelligently controlled processes can these two forms be separated - no where has this taken any place anywhere without intelligent intervention.
A non-intelligent process to get only one of the enantiomers (one of the forms of amino acids). Basically, the "evidence" presented is basically the Argument from Ignorance.
I would say theistic evolutionists are the ignorant ones, as they simply refuse to accept what the data tells them and most importantly what the word of God tells them.
Nature 2001 Feb 15;409(6822):797-801
Comment in:
Nature. 2001 Feb 15;409(6822):777-8.
A chiroselective peptide replicator.
Saghatelian A, Yokobayashi Y, Soltani K, Ghadiri MR.
Department of Chemistry, and Skaggs Institute for Chemical Biology, The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, California92037, USA.
Yes of course, Nature, a very unbiased naturalistic periodical indeed! And yet the proof is in the pudding. So dont just give titles and authors and a brief quote, explain to all of us lucas - better yet explain to us what the articles say to support your stand. Or are you simply pasting your references as most evolutionists I come across do instead of dealing with the issue?
"The origin of homochirality in living systems is often attributed to the generation of enantiomeric differences in a pool of chiral prebiotic molecules, but none of the possible physiochemical processes considered [a lot of nonsense in between here taken out] support the idea that self-replicating polypeptides could have played a key role in the origin of homochirality on Earth"
Now doesnt that sound much better? I just love your cut and paste jobs lucas. There is no proof that such even occurred.
Now, their "designed" is actually simply natural selection and not intelligent intervention.
Natural selection of what? What is there to select from where there is nothing to select. Wishful thinking at its most imaginative!
Even if this overwhelming obstacle did not exist or can be overcome, far greater problems remain for the chance synthesis of life. There are many reasons why the amino acids would disintegrate or never form in the first place, but life requires much more than just simple amino acids, it also requires proteins and DNA coding or instruction to assemble all the amino acids that reside within a living organism.
Life did not come about by chance. That's the fallacy. Life originated by chemistry.
According to evolution it is by chance. The fallacy is your assertions that it did when scripture tells us otherwise. And no, life was an act of God, not the result of a process which produces nothing - even to this day.