Eusebius on Josephus

[Julian of York]

I am reading a new translation on Eusebius of Caesarea (A.D. 263-339).In this volume is a copy of Flavius Josephus' famous extra-Biblical reference to Jesus Christ. Josephus had written "Antiquities of the Jews" and "The Jewish Wars" sometime in the mid first century A.D..In both treatises he refers to Jesus as a teacher,healer, condemned by Pontius Pilate, died by
crucifixion,and rose again on the third day. Josephus also refers to Christ as the Messiah.
Apparently these passages have been disputed since the sevententh century. The theory is that either these portions were interpolated into the text of Josephus by Christian copyists at some later date.(But before Eusibius) or both Josephus and Eusebius texts were tampered with. Or,and this is my thought: Since Josephus' references to John the Baptist and James the Just are considered authentic, isn't it just possible that Josephus also commented on Christ, and that he passed on the information as he had it?
When we consider that the unbeliever isn't likely to believe Poloroid pictures of Christ with sound recordings, there is no way unbelievers are going to believe anything that brings THEM into condemnation for unbelief no matter what.
Therefore, I posit that the facts as refered in Greek by Josephus and read two hundred years later by Eusebius are genuine,reliable,and worthy to be used as Exhibit "A". "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man,but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." If God inspires and preserves the Bible, I take it that He can protect and preserve any information that He pleases.
Of course, "Blessed are those who have not seen,but believe".
But what say you, friends in Christ?

Julian of York
Enjoying the Christian Life and
WILLING TO LEARN!

 

[Andy S]

I imagine you are getting this information from Eusebius' book "Church History". Can you tell me what book and chapter you find this information in. I can't find this information in my translation of "Church History". Thanks.

 

[John 1720]

I am reading a new translation on Eusebius of Caesarea (A.D. 263-339).In this volume is a copy of Flavius Josephus' famous extra-Biblical reference to Jesus Christ. Josephus had written "Antiquities of the Jews" and "The Jewish Wars" sometime in the mid first century A.D..In both treatises he refers to Jesus as a teacher,healer, condemned by Pontius Pilate, died by
crucifixion,and rose again on the third day. Josephus also refers to Christ as the Messiah.
Apparently these passages have been disputed since the sevententh century. The theory is that either these portions were interpolated into the text of Josephus by Christian copyists at some later date.(But before Eusibius) or both Josephus and Eusebius texts were tampered with. Or,and this is my thought: Since Josephus' references to John the Baptist and James the Just are considered authentic, isn't it just possible that Josephus also commented on Christ, and that he passed on the information as he had it?
When we consider that the unbeliever isn't likely to believe Poloroid pictures of Christ with sound recordings, there is no way unbelievers are going to believe anything that brings THEM into condemnation for unbelief no matter what.
Therefore, I posit that the facts as refered in Greek by Josephus and read two hundred years later by Eusebius are genuine,reliable,and worthy to be used as Exhibit "A". "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man,but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." If God inspires and preserves the Bible, I take it that He can protect and preserve any information that He pleases.
Of course, "Blessed are those who have not seen,but believe".
But what say you, friends in Christ?

Julian of York
Enjoying the Christian Life and
WILLING TO LEARN!

Here's the quote

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first ceased not, for he appeared to them thereafter again the third day, as the divine prophets foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And even now the tribe of Christians so named from him is not extinct."
-Antiquities of the Jews 18.63-64 or 3.3.

May God Bless, John 1720

 

[Andy S]

Thanks John 1720 for the feedback. I was aware that Josephus possibly wrote this (maybe an interpolation) in the "Antiquities of the Jews". Julian of York said that she/he read this in Eusebius of Ceasarea's work and I was wondering where he/she found this "new translation" because I can't find this "passage" in my "Church History" book by Eusebius. Have you heard that Eusebius wrote this "passage" of Josephus in any of his works. If not I have to conclude that this "passage" by Josephus is an interpolation made later by dishonest Christians.

Thanks,

Andy S.

 

[John 1720]

Thanks John 1720 for the feedback. I was aware that Josephus possibly wrote this (maybe an interpolation) in the "Antiquities of the Jews". Julian of York said that she/he read this in Eusebius of Ceasarea's work and I was wondering where he/she found this "new translation" because I can't find this "passage" in my "Church History" book by Eusebius. Have you heard that Eusebius wrote this "passage" of Josephus in any of his works. If not I have to conclude that this "passage" by Josephus is an interpolation made later by dishonest Christians.

Thanks,

Andy S.

No, it's actually there in Eusebius as well. Here's the excerpt from Book I, Chapter 11

Chapter 11. Testimonies in Regard to John the Baptist and Christ.][/FONT]
1. Not long after this John the Baptist was beheaded by the younger Herod, as is stated in the Gospels. Josephus also records the same fact, making mention of Herodias by name, and stating that, although she was the wife of his brother, Herod made her his own wife after divorcing his former lawful wife, who was the daughter of Aretas, king of Petra, and separating Herodias from her husband while he was still alive.
2. It was on her account also that he slew John, and waged war with Aretas, because of the disgrace inflicted on the daughter of the latter. Josephus relates that in this war, when they came to battle, Herod's entire army was destroyed, and that he suffered this calamity on account of his crime against John.
3. The same Josephus confesses in this account that John the Baptist was an exceedingly righteous man, and thus agrees with the things written of him in the Gospels. He records also that Herod lost his kingdom on account of the same Herodias, and that he was driven into banishment with her, and condemned to live at Vienne in Gaul.
4. He relates these things in the eighteenth book of the Antiquities, where he writes of John in the following words: It seemed to some of the Jews that the army of Herod was destroyed by God, who most justly avenged John called the Baptist.
5. For Herod slew him, a good man and one who exhorted the Jews to come and receive baptism, practicing virtue and exercising righteousness toward each other and toward God; for baptism would appear acceptable unto Him when they employed it, not for the remission of certain sins, but for the purification of the body, as the soul had been already purified in righteousness.
6. And when others gathered about him (for they found much pleasure in listening to his words), Herod feared that his great influence might lead to some sedition, for they appeared ready to do whatever he might advise. He therefore considered it much better, before any new thing should be done under John's influence, to anticipate it by slaying him, than to repent after revolution had come, and when he found himself in the midst of difficulties. On account of Herod's suspicion John was sent in bonds to the above-mentioned citadel of Machæra, and there slain.
7. After relating these things concerning John, he makes mention of our Savior in the same work, in the following words: And there lived at that time Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it be proper to call him a man. For he was a doer of wonderful works, and a teacher of such men as receive the truth in gladness. And he attached to himself many of the Jews, and many also of the Greeks. He was the Christ.

I think what you may have heard, with regard to this being an interpolation of Josephus' original, comes from the earlier Origen who said Josephus was not a Christian, which has always raised a bit of a suspicion as to why Josephus would state "He was the Christ". Many have accused Eusebius of embellishment but without proof. Perhaps the best argument against Eusebius' wording has been a more recent discovery of Arabic version from Agapius of Manbij who was an historian that lived in the 10th century A.D. He had a slightly different translation of Josephus recorded in his Kitab al Unwan. Obviously his version is 700 years after Eusebius' but some are more inclined to believe this version, although to date an older copy than the Eusiebius fragment cannot be found. The line of thinking here is that Agapius had another source but no one can determine if it was earlier than Eusebius or if his was just a version that had been subject to literary changes over time that were perhaps more acceptable to his audience. There certainly appear to be additions as well as deletions but to be honest it really doesn't matter to me a hill of beans, historically speaking. If Josephus stated, "He was the Christ" or he merely implied His followers believed "He was the Christ", a.k.a "the Messiah", it verifies Christ as the historical figure of the New Testament Gospels and letters. He still wrote and verified Jesus' history either way, as well as verifying the birth of primitive Christianity. Of course I do hope Josephus actually believed He was the Christ but that matters not to the historical capture of His ministry as much as it does to Josephus himself.

'At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.'

In Christ, John 1720