Eternity?

[Penumbra]

Uh, false.

Also unfounded.

Romans 9
Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e] 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?



So hypothetically if there were a god that constructed people as he would out of clay, and choose before hand some of them to make objects of his mercy, and others as objects of wrath so that he can showcase his power and glory to the first group, would you find that just or unjust?

Do you disagree with Paul, and feel that the pot can determine whether actions by the potter are just or unjust?

Kill the innocent. (Now, not in Hebrew times.)
IDk, many such things.

-Why does "Hebrew times" change things here? If you lived in Hebrew times, would you feel different?
-How do you define innocent? Many Christians I've talked to would argue that all are sinful.

-Lyn

 

[david_x]

Romans 9
Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e] 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Hate is used in a relative sense, sorry still false.

So hypothetically if there were a god that constructed people as he would out of clay, and choose before hand some of them to make objects of his mercy, and others as objects of wrath so that he can showcase his power and glory to the first group, would you find that just or unjust?

Just.

Do you disagree with Paul, and feel that the pot can determine whether actions by the potter are just or unjust?

Nope.

-Why does "Hebrew times" change things here? If you lived in Hebrew times, would you feel different?
-How do you define innocent? Many Christians I've talked to would argue that all are sinful.

-Lyn

Hebrew was one nation, Christianity is all nations.

None are innocent.

 

[Penumbra]

Hate is used in a relative sense, sorry still false.

I don't see how a relative sense matters.

Hebrew was one nation, Christianity is all nations.

So?

Just.

Nope.

None are innocent.

So you're saying you would find it unjust if God were to kill an innocent, but there are no innocents.

It's not ok for God to hate, unless he hates relatively.

It's ok for God to decide to make someone an object of his wrath as he prepares them (if that's not the definition of innocent I don't know what is).

Suppose that you found out that God constructed you, personally, to be an object of his wrath from the very beginning, and hardened your heart against him. Would you accept that, and find him just?

So now it seems you're arguing that there is nothing God could do to be considered unjust in your opinion. I guess I'll ask again now that we've gone over some things:

What would God have to do for you to consider him unjust?

-Lyn

 

[david_x]

I don't see how a relative sense matters.

God loves Jacob so much that it's like he hates Esau.

So?

It was important that God protect his one nation, making all other nations less.

So you're saying you would find it unjust if God were to kill an innocent, but there are no innocents.

Yes.

It's ok for God to decide to make someone an object of his wrath as he prepares them (if that's not the definition of innocent I don't know what is).

Suppose that you found out that God constructed you, personally, to be an object of his wrath from the very beginning, and hardened your heart against him. Would you accept that, and find him just?

No, my heart would be hardened....

So now it seems you're arguing that there is nothing God could do to be considered unjust in your opinion. I guess I'll ask again now that we've gone over some things:

What would God have to do for you to consider him unjust?

Already answered that.

 

[Penumbra]

God loves Jacob so much that it's like he hates Esau.

It was important that God protect his one nation, making all other nations less.

Yes.

No, my heart would be hardened....

Already answered that.

I could have more questions, but you've answered the ones I've asked and we're getting into theology instead of philosophy (which is my fault ). Thank you for answering.

-Lyn

 

[david_x]

I could have more questions, but you've answered the ones I've asked and we're getting into theology instead of philosophy (which is my fault ). Thank you for answering.

-Lyn

It's okay, they do that sometimes.

 

[bricklayer]

God has infinitely more right to do with His creatures what He will,
than an author has a right to do what he will with his characters.
It is for this reason that creatures and characters exisit.

 

[david_x]

God has infinitely more right to do with His creatures what He will,
than an author has a right to do what he will with his characters.
It is for this reason that creatures and characters exisit.

We don't exist so He can use us, we exist because He loves us.

 

[Penumbra]

God has infinitely more right to do with His creatures what He will,
than an author has a right to do what he will with his characters.
It is for this reason that creatures and characters exisit.

Characters cannot suffer, and cannot feel sadness or despair.

Creatures can suffer, and can feel sadness or despair.

-Lyn

 

[bricklayer]

You are right to point out that there is a vast difference between a creature and a character. But that only supports my point.
The difference between an author and a chararcter is incalculable, but it is quantifiable. They are both finite. The difference between Creator and creature is infinite. God is infinitely higher over me than I am over a stick figure pencil drawing.

 

[Penumbra]

You are right to point out that there is a vast difference between a creature and a character. But that only supports my point.
The difference between an author and a chararcter is incalculable, but it is quantifiable. They are both finite. The difference between Creator and creature is infinite. God is infinitely higher over me than I am over a stick figure pencil drawing.

I would argue it's the other way around.

Although "god" is defined in numerous, often contradicting ways by different theistic worldviews, a human shares more similarity with a god than a character shares with an author. A human has a degree of feeling, emotion, ability to suffer, to cry, to laugh, and most importantly consciousness. We are aware of what we are and can experience our feelings. Monotheists usually argue that God also has consciousness as well. This being the case, the human and god share more in common than an author and her character, that can feel nothing.

-Lyn

 

[bricklayer]

You are right to say that the most common views of God are quite anthropomorphised.

To me, it's simple:
The difference between an infinite and a finite is infinite.

When I consider the emence difference between me and my character, and then consider that the difference between me and my Creator is INFINITELY more ... it buckles my knees.

I'm not trying to convince you or anything, I'm just saying, from the bottem of my heart, this is what i'm left to believe is actually going on around me.

 

[Penumbra]

Let's say you have a really good idea for a tragic story. Some of the best stories are tragedies.

So, you go ahead and write it, and some really terrible things happen to characters, and some of them suffer tremendously, and some die.

Hypothetically, if you knew that when you wrote the story, real beings would be created and would truly feel all the emotions you give them, would you still write such a story? Would you have moral obligations against creating things to suffer? Obviously you have no such qualms if it were not the case, since a character is only meant to be entertaining to the audience, and has no consciousness, but what if it were real?

-Lyn

 

[bricklayer]

You rock, you're getting to the heart of it.

Jesus said that if you hate, you are guilty of murder.

We are just that depraved, utterly depraved.

 

[Eudaimonist]

You rock, you're getting to the heart of it.

Jesus said that if you hate, you are guilty of murder.

We are just that depraved, utterly depraved.

I can understand cultivating the willingness to see faults in one's own character, but this sort of self-loathing strikes me as excessive and spiritually poisonous. There is love in people as well as hate. If you condemn hate you should praise love twofold. People do not deserve condemnation without deserved praise.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[PoetaeRomanae]

praying

What would you be praying for in Heaven? "Thy will be done"? Well, who else's will could possibly be done in Heaven if not God's?

Would you be praying for God to give a second chance to the trillions of souls who would be burning in a lake of fire for eternity? (among them maybe some of your family members and friends back from earth?) Would you want to send them your love from Paradise?

 

[david_x]

What would you be praying for in Heaven? "Thy will be done"? Well, who else's will could possibly be done in Heaven if not God's?

Would you be praying for God to give a second chance to the trillions of souls who would be burning in a lake of fire for eternity? (among them maybe some of your family members and friends back from earth?) Would you want to send them your love from Paradise?

Definition of pray:

When people pray, they speak to God in order to give thanks or to ask for his help​

 

[rosenherman]

Would you be praying for God to give a second chance to the trillions of souls who would be burning in a lake of fire for eternity? (among them maybe some of your family members and friends back from earth?) Would you want to send them your love from Paradise?

Humans aren't burning in a lake of fire forever. If you re-read Revelation you'll see that Satan, the beast and the false prophet are tormented in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Death and hades are then thrown in the lake of fire to be destroyed.

Revelation 20:14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[bricklayer]

Total depravity, unregenerate man is totaly depraved.

That's not self loathing, that's reality.

 

[david_x]

Humans aren't burning in a lake of fire forever. If you re-read Revelation you'll see that Satan, the beast and the false prophet are tormented in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Death and hades are then thrown in the lake of fire to be destroyed.

Revelation 20:14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

If anyones name is not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Yes, that includes people...