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Eternity?
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rosenherman
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As an atheist you are not going to understand. Of course it's not in your experience.
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bricklayer
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My experience, your experience, that's all rather anthropocentric, wouldn't you say?
I'm left to believe that personal experience is too myopic.
It's not about us.
I'm left to believe that personal experience is too myopic.
It's not about us.
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Eudaimonist
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That's right. It's not in my experience that people are devoid of good qualities, such as love, and produce nothing but hate on their own.
Every time I see good qualities in a non-Christian, I know that the doctrine of total depravity is falsified.
bricklayer said:
Obviously.
This doctrine is precisely about us. That's why a self-loathing personality would tend to see "total depravity" in oneself and others. If someone lacks any moral character, it's a natural conclusion. However, this would be a distortion of reality.
A more clear-eyed perspective reveals imperfection, yet plenty of goodness, in human beings. We may be "mixed bags", but we are not Orcs.
eudaimonia,
Mark
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bricklayer
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Total depravity is a necessary standard not a relative standard.
I'm a simple man, down to earth, bricks and mud.
In my world, we have a thing called a benchmark.
Everything is measured against that benchmark.
It's not enough that two structures are level to each other,
they need to be at the proper level relative to the benchmark.
They can be good with each other and not be in good position at all.
If two systems are in equalibrium with a third system, they are in equalibrium with each other. (zeroth law)
Measured against the absolute standard of good, we are utterly depraved.
I'm a simple man, down to earth, bricks and mud.
In my world, we have a thing called a benchmark.
Everything is measured against that benchmark.
It's not enough that two structures are level to each other,
they need to be at the proper level relative to the benchmark.
They can be good with each other and not be in good position at all.
If two systems are in equalibrium with a third system, they are in equalibrium with each other. (zeroth law)
Measured against the absolute standard of good, we are utterly depraved.
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Eudaimonist
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People can clearly be more or less good. Imperfection =/= zero.
You may, of course, say that God won't tolerate any degree of imperfection, or that any imperfection spoils one's relationship with God. However, this doesn't translate into "total depravity" in people. It just means that God has a problem with imperfection. It's no reason to call people "totally depraved".
eudaimonia,
Mark
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bricklayer
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My being more or less good is like me saying that my tire is only flat on the bottem.
I'm left to believe that it's a pass/fail thing, and we all fail.
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
I'm right there with you, I see all sorts of variation in behavior along a good-bad scale, but I also recognize varying individual perceptions are not a reasonable calibration. I am left to believe that there is a necessary standard of good.
The absense of good is not always by affect of malice, evil is often the effect of a belief in one's own calibration of good.
I'm left to believe that it's a pass/fail thing, and we all fail.
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
I'm right there with you, I see all sorts of variation in behavior along a good-bad scale, but I also recognize varying individual perceptions are not a reasonable calibration. I am left to believe that there is a necessary standard of good.
The absense of good is not always by affect of malice, evil is often the effect of a belief in one's own calibration of good.
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