Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, several passages make it clear to me that
God chooses His elect, they don't choose Him.
The elect's free-will choices come later
when they choose whether or not to co-operate.
BTW, the Lord makes it very difficult to NOT co-operate.
But, IMO, this is possible.

Chosen for what?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Election unto Salvation

Election unto Salvation

Election unto Salvation

Election unto Salvation

41 verses about Election unto Salvation

Election unto Salvation

Now, if you will read instead of just posting out of reaction, you'll see, election unto salvation is taught.

How about reading my thread on the purpose of election an trying to refute the facts.

I have a thread in "debate with a Calvinist" under "Semper Reformada" about the purpose of election here: The purpose of Election

And if these aren't enough, I have a ton more to support it.

Actually, not.

The list of "41 verses about election unto salvation" contains exactly NONE that even speak of salvation. All do speak of being chosen, but the purpose isn't stated.

In my thread, I provide examples of who has been chosen (elected), and it's obvious that none of them were chosen for salvation.

Let's begin with the most important one, or The Chosen One, Jesus Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is no ceasing to believe and/or rebelling with believers.

Haven't you read the parable of the soils?
Luke 8:12-13
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

In v.12 Jesus makes the point that those who believe will be saved. In v.13, He makes the point that some believe for a while, but then fall away.

 

[DeaconDean]

How about reading my thread on the purpose of election an trying to refute the facts.

I have a thread in "debate with a Calvinist" under "Semper Reformada" about the purpose of election here: The purpose of Election


Actually, not.

The list of "41 verses about election unto salvation" contains exactly NONE that even speak of salvation. All do speak of being chosen, but the purpose isn't stated.

In my thread, I provide examples of who has been chosen (elected), and it's obvious that none of them were chosen for salvation.

Let's begin with the most important one, or The Chosen One, Jesus Christ.

9 posts total. Wow! You sure shut us Calvinists up didn't you.

Reminds me of what Dr Evil said:

Yea...right.

Say what you will.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[HenryM]

...

Keep in mind you are arguing with a person who is committed that election of apostles is corporate/group election. That's as if someone is telling you that when sun shines during the day it is dark outside.

I propose that there is no discussion with that person. Nor to anybody who is arguing alongside him and not correcting him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

9 posts total. Wow! You sure shut us Calvinists up didn't you.

Well, apparently I did. Where is the refutation? Nowhere to be seen.

Say what you will.

I did. And I quoted Scripture as well. And...no refutations from Scripture.

Just some snarky posts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Keep in mind you are arguing with a person who is committed that election of apostles is corporate/group election. That's as if someone is telling you that when sun shines during the day it is dark outside.

Silly. Why is the day dark? Clouds. What's above the clouds? A shining sun.

I propose that there is no discussion with that person.

Why in the world would I create a thread if I wasn't anticipating discussion?

Nor to anybody who is arguing alongside him and not correcting him.

Why haven't the reformed even tried to correct what I posted? All I've seen is attacks for my views, which, btw, ARE supported by Scripture. Which I provided.

So, if my views are so screwed up, how come no one has come forward to take the verses I quoted and exegete them to show that they don't say what I am claiming that they say?

What is clear, though, is that the reformed have nothing to say or defend about their views on election. Just claims, but no actual evidence from Scripture.

 

[Jord]

Haven't you read the parable of the soils?
Luke 8:12-13
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

In v.12 Jesus makes the point that those who believe will be saved. In v.13, He makes the point that some believe for a while, but then fall away.

Ok, agreed. It's definitely possible with parts of the Word of God.

But I don't believe a born-again believer can ever lose his/her faith. "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" Eph. 1:13. Once you're through that door, you're on the green pastures

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok, agreed. It's definitely possible with parts of the Word of God.

But I don't believe a born-again believer can ever lose his/her faith. "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" Eph. 1:13. Once you're through that door, you're on the green pastures

What a born-again believer cannot ever lose is their salvation. Because they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption, per Eph 1:13,14.

But Luke 8:13 does make the point that one who has believed can cease to believe. As Jesus put it, they "believe for a while".

 

[BCsenior]

So, when is one given eternal life?
The answer to that determines when eternal security begins for the person.

You've already seen (and rejected) the 15 NT verses which (are supposed to) teach us:
One must endure in his/her faith until the end of his/her life
to receive eternal life!
This is only one group of NT verses that disqualify OSAS.
All of this means that salvation is a process, which can end up in success or failure.
Thou must reconcile all of the NT passages to come up with the truth.
Thou does not, the pastors do not, most of the sheep do not.
Therefore, most have no idea what the truth really is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You've already seen (and rejected) the 15 NT verses which (are supposed to) teach us:
One must endure in his/her faith until the end of his/her life
to receive eternal life!
This is only one group of NT verses that disqualify OSAS.

Nope. None of these, or any other, teach that one must endure until the end of their life to receive eternal life.

Such an idea directly opposes what Jesus taught in very plain language in John 3:15,16, 5:24 and 6:47. Those who believe HAVE, as in CURRENT POSSESSION, eternal life.

Further, in John 10:28 Jesus said, again plainly, that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

So, to never perish depends upon being given eternal life, NOT enduring in the faith to the end of life.

All of this means that salvation is a process, which can end up in success or failure.
Thou must reconcile all of the NT passages to come up with the truth.

I just gave the truth. Straight from Jesus' mouth.

Thou does not, the pastors do not, most of the sheep do not.
Therefore, most have no idea what the truth really is.

Opinion noted. But rejected.

 

[BCsenior]

Nope. None of these, or any other, teach that one must endure until the end of their life to receive eternal life.

Such an idea directly opposes what Jesus taught in very plain language in John 3:15,16, 5:24 and 6:47. Those who believe HAVE, as in CURRENT POSSESSION, eternal life.

Whatever done did happen to everyone?
Musta grown fed up with your total nonsense.

BTW, you don't understand what "believe" really means in the NT.

100+ NT verses warn that ... true saving belief =
heart belief (not intellectual) + deep faith + solid trust + obedience
+ repenting so as to get rid of the sin in one's life.
This is obviously what the NT teaches!

Yes, it is advisable that everyone ignore this dangerous guy!
I.E. dangerous to those who can't read and understand the NT for themselves.
E.G. IF one can understand what Paul is warning in Romans 6,
he/she is well on their way to understanding the NT.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Whatever done did happen to everyone?

What does this question mean?

Musta grown fed up with your total nonsense.

Ditto.

BTW, you don't understand what "believe" really means in the NT.

How do you know?

100+ NT verses warn that ... true saving belief =
heart belief (not intellectual) + deep faith + solid trust + obedience
+ repenting so as to get rid of the sin in one's life.
This is obviously what the NT teaches!

If so "obvious", how come we NEVER find these phrases anywhere in the Bible:
1. "true saving belief"
2. "heart belief (not intellectual)
3. "deep faith"
4. "solid trust"
5. repenting gets rid of the sin in one's life.

What we do find are these words:
1. believe on the Lord Jesus Christ
2. justified by faith in Christ
3. confession provides forgiveness and cleansing from our sins

Yes, it is advisable that everyone ignore this dangerous guy!
I.E. dangerous to those who can't read and understand the NT for themselves.
E.G. IF one can understand what Paul is warning in Romans 6,
he/she is well on their way to understanding the NT.

Yes, those who cannot defend their claims, etc should ignore me. Because I will ask for Scriptural evidence that supports their claims, etc.

When people have to add words to biblical words, such as:
1. "true saving" faith
2. "heart vs head" belief
3. "deep" faith
4. "solid" trust

it's pretty clear that they don't accept the words that the Bible uses, and therefore create their own words and definitions that suit their own agendas.

 

[BCsenior]

If so "obvious", how come we NEVER find these phrases anywhere in the Bible:
1. "true saving belief"
2. "heart belief (not intellectual)
3. "deep faith"
4. "solid trust"
5. repenting gets rid of the sin in one's life.

My extra wording is to try to help believers understand
what's required to actually having saving faith.

John's "believe" is a joke of a translation ...
IMO, most translators have NOT understood that
"pisteou" has a different meaning in the NT than it does in the secular world.
Also, they tried to translate it w/o paraphrasing it.
John's "believe" is a joke of a translation ...
because it obviously does NOT distinguish between
a very shallow intellectual belief and a very deep belief.

The rest of the NT makes it very clear what kind of belief one must have,
which includes strong faith, strong trust, obedience out of love for Jesus.
He said 3 times in John 14 ... "those who love Me will obey Me".
And who goes to heaven who does NOT love Jesus?

Of course, I could post about 100 more NT verses that prove the above.

BTW, all of this is written for others, not for you.
Because you have always been hopeless, and continue to be so.

 

[ToBeLoved]

My extra wording is to try to help believers understand
what's required to actually having saving faith.

John's "believe" is a joke of a translation ...
IMO, most translators have NOT understood that
"pisteou" has a different meaning in the NT than it does in the secular world.
Also, they tried to translate it w/o paraphrasing it.
John's "believe" is a joke of a translation ...
because it obviously does NOT distinguish between
a very shallow intellectual belief and a very deep belief.

The rest of the NT makes it very clear what kind of belief one must have,
which includes strong faith, strong trust, obedience out of love for Jesus.
He said 3 times in John 14 ... "those who love Me will obey Me".
And who goes to heaven who does NOT love Jesus?

Of course, I could post about 100 more NT verses that prove the above.

BTW, all of this is written for others, not for you.
Because you have always been hopeless, and continue to be so.

I’m game. Please list the 100 verses you mentioned.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My extra wording is to try to help believers understand
what's required to actually having saving faith.

Right...another added word, "actually". Nothing is required to have saving faith. God has already provided everything necessary for saving faith for everyone. It's just that many either aren't interested, or actively resist the Holy Spirit and His ministry of conviction. But God has already revealed Himself to everyone so that no one has an excuse. Rom 1:19-21.

John's "believe" is a joke of a translation ...
IMO, most translators have NOT understood that
"pisteou" has a different meaning in the NT than it does in the secular world.

Now, how would anyone know that? Were you able to interview John to determine first hand what he "actually" meant? Sure.

Also, they tried to translate it w/o paraphrasing it.
John's "believe" is a joke of a translation ...
because it obviously does NOT distinguish between
a very shallow intellectual belief and a very deep belief.

Can you show anywhere in the Bible that distinguishes between these supposed differences? If not, it's just another opinion.

The rest of the NT makes it very clear what kind of belief one must have,
which includes strong faith, strong trust, obedience out of love for Jesus.

Yet, the Bible is clear about one man who asked Jesus to heal his son and then said to Jesus, "I believe, help my unbelief". So, how deep was his faith? Or how intellectual?

He said 3 times in John 14 ... "those who love Me will obey Me".
And who goes to heaven who does NOT love Jesus?

Where does the phrase in bold say anything about believe?

Of course, I could post about 100 more NT verses that prove the above.

Oh, I'm sure.

[QOUTE]BTW, all of this is written for others, not for you.
Because you have always been hopeless, and continue to be so.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the snark. I'm sure it made you feel better. But unless you've got support for your theories and opinions, that's all they are.

You've trashed Greek translators, who are scholars. Have you achieved greater training than them? I don't believe they are infallible, but your trashing was without merit because it provided no evidence to support your claims.

Provide merit, and maybe the "others your post is written for" will be swayed by your claims.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

No, sir! Eph 1:13,14 teaches that having believed, one is sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption, as God's own possession.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No, sir! Eph 1:13,14 teaches that having believed, one is sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption, as God's own possession.

Yes that is a fact. The Holy Spirit is part of our inheritance. We are heirs of the Father. co-heirs with Christ. We are God’s children! We have changed ownership. Bought with Christ’s blood.

 

[BCsenior]

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

Yes, of course ...
What do think NT phrases like these are referring to?
falling from faith
falling from grace
drawing back to perdition
losing eternal life
being blotted out of the Book of Life
not being allowed to enter the city of the New Jerusalem
etc.

Please give us your faulty view of what Paul is talking about in Romans 6.
This will be enough to prove how erroneous your view of the NT really is.

FYI, wishful tinkin' ain't gonna get no one inta heaven!
We gottsta go along with God's plan of salvation.
NOT OURS!