Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

[FreeGrace2]

You are still arguing that election of apostles was not individual election but group election.

How about moving off your obsession and deal with the proven fact, from Scriptural examples, that election is about service, not salvation?

Just like I said, that can make you look like you are mentally retarded. But I know, maybe better to say I guess, you are probably just proud like a baby.

When one's only response is sinking to ad hominems, it's clear that you have no defense for your own position.

And there is no discussion with that kind of person.

Right. There can be no real discussion when one side has only silly ad hominems rather than any substantive evidence to present.

Claims without evidence are hollow. Enjoy the echos.

 

[HenryM]

...

When one is so proud as you are to correct obvious error, not much can be discussed with you. But you don't understand even that, as it seems to be.

Maybe if you are in high school or college age, I would at least understand where your stand comes from. In fact, as this progresses, I'm finding it harder and harder that I am speaking to relatively grown up person.

 

[FreeGrace2]

When one is so proud as you are to correct obvious error, not much can be discussed with you. But you don't understand even that, as it seems to be.

Maybe if you are in high school or college age, I would at least understand where your stand comes from. In fact, as this progresses, I'm finding it harder and harder that I am speaking to relatively grown up person.

What is clear is that there is no real interest in having an adult discussion, complete with evidence for your own claims.

Why waste time posting when real interest is lacking?

 

[DeaconDean]

This is the only verse in the NT that includes both "chose" and "salvation". However, the Greek word is totally unrelated to the verb used for "elect". Here, the word is 'haireomai', while the verb for elect is 'eklegomai'. The noun is ekloge, and the adjective is eklektos. So this verse is not about election, but about the mechanics or mechanism by which man is saved; which is "through sanctification by the Spirit and (or even) belief in the truth".

iow, God chose (not elected) the method by which man is saved. Man is saved by grace THROUGH FAITH (2 Thess 2:13) , according to Eph 2:8.

God chose the way man will be saved. It's expressed this way in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

How is this not a choice?

Notice that the verse doesn't say that God chose who would believe, which is the real foundation for the Calvinist doctrine of election.


Paul was indicating the method by which one is saved, which is "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth". What's what God chose.

It is an error to equate 'haireomai' with 'eklegomai'. They are different.

Here's a simple but deep truth:
All elections involve a choice.
Very few choices involve an election.

That's the difference.

Your funny.

Consult any commentary worth it weigh, and you'll see, who is it that does the choosing. And if it is God, then whether its a different Greek word than "elect" it is still God doing the chosing and it is election.

Next person.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your funny.

Thanks!

Consult any commentary worth it weigh, and you'll see, who is it that does the choosing.

I never said that it wasn't God doing the choosing. My point was about what He was choosing in 2 Thess 2:13.

And if it is God, then whether its a different Greek word than "elect" it is still God doing the chosing and it is election.

As I said before:
Every election involves a choice.
Very few choices involve an election.

2 Thess 2:13 tells us that God chose the means of our salvation, which is "belief in the truth". Basically the same thing Paul expressed in Eph 2:8, "we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH".

iow, God chose the plan of salvation. It's His plan.

What is false is to claim that God chooses, without conditions (unconditionally) who will be saved.

If that were true, then faith would have no part in salvation.

The sole condition for salvation is to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.

So the doctrine of unconditional election for salvation is false.

God absolutely does choose who He will save. And that is believers. But God absolutely does NOT choose who will believe, which is the foundation for the reformed doctrine of unconditional election.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

 

[Copperhead]

A story by H.A. Ironside seems to clarify the supposed confusion, along with a basic view of the time dimension of physics.

As Ironside stated in a dream he had, he is walking thru a hallway and comes upon a door. Above the door it is written "Whosoever Will". So he enters the door. He notices a banquet laid out and one of the places has his name on it. When he turns around to look at the door, it says "Known from the foundation of the World".

God indeed does choose us, but that is because He knew the choice we would make before the world began. Our sovereignty is still intact. It is our choice. He has the benefit of seeing the end from the beginning outside of the dimensionally of time. So He can say that He chose us, while at the same time we can say we chose Him. Both statements are correct from outside the time domain.

Only our myopic fluttering about these things makes it confusing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

A story by H.A. Ironside seems to clarify the supposed confusion, along with a basic view of the time dimension of physics.

As Ironside stated in a dream he had, he is walking thru a hallway and comes upon a door. Above the door it is written "Whosoever Will". So he enters the door. He notices a banquet laid out and one of the places has his name on it. When he turns around to look at the door, it says "Known from the foundation of the World".

God indeed does choose us, but that is because He knew the choice we would make before the world began. Our sovereignty is still intact. It is our choice. He has the benefit of seeing the end from the beginning outside of the dimensionally of time. So He can say that He chose us, while at the same time we can say we chose Him. Both statements are correct from outside the time domain.

Only our myopic fluttering about these things makes it confusing.

Seems to me it's pretty simple. God chose the plan of salvation. That plan includes the criteria for who to save. And God chose the criteria which is to believe in His Son for salvation.

The "us" in Eph 1:4 refers to believers, which is clearly defined in Eph 1:19.

That's who God chose to be "holy and blameless". So God's election is not about salvation, but about service.

 

[Copperhead]

That's who God chose to be "holy and blameless". So God's election is not about salvation, but about service.

Are you implying salvation is about works (service)? I might be reading your post wrong. I thought salvation was about Yeshua's accomplished work and our freewill choice.

You would be correct that election is not about salvation. Israel is called the Lord's "elect", and not all Hebrews from Abraham onward are saved. And Paul calls angels "elect" in his 1st letter to Timothy. Last I checked, I didn't get the idea that angels needed a savior like we do.

Election is a positional standing. Not quite the same thing as foreknowledge of a choice. Those is the body of Messiah are "elect" because we have become partakers with Him by our choice, of which YHVH knew from the beginning.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Are you implying salvation is about works (service)?

No. Election is about works, not about salvation.

I might be reading your post wrong. I thought salvation was about Yeshua's accomplished work and our freewill choice.

It is. My point is that God chose the means by whom to save; believing in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

You would be correct that election is not about salvation.

Yes, that is my point.

Israel is called the Lord's "elect", and not all Hebrews from Abraham onward are saved. And Paul calls angels "elect" in his 1st letter to Timothy. Last I checked, I didn't get the idea that angels needed a savior like we do.

Exactly. And who is The Chosen One? None other than our Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[Copperhead]

We are talking past each other it seems, as you seem to have a unique view of who Israel is as the elect of God and who believers are as also the elect of God.

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV Strong's,) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Just the wording of that verse, it is quite a stretch to imply that it pertains to Yeshua as the chosen one. It seems pretty clear that Israel, corporately, is the elect of YHVH. The passage is talking about the Lord's anointed, Cyrus, who would later take over Babylon 150 years later. YHVH calls Cyrus His anointed and Israel His elect. The passage has nothing to do with Messiah.

And Israel has screwed up so many times, with Moses even calling them a stiff necked, obstinate people, yet still YHVH calls Israel His elect. So election cannot be about works, but position in the eyes of YHVH. And Cyrus is hardly anything that would be remotely considered messianic, yet the Lord calls him, a unbelieving gentile, His anointed.

Believers are elect in the eyes of YHVH because of being justified by His Messiah, Yeshua. A different deal than Israel. It is all about our position as believers with YHVH thru our faith in His Messiah, not our works.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are talking past each other it seems, as you seem to have a unique view of who Israel is as the elect of God and who believers are as also the elect of God.

No, I have the biblical view. Both the people of Israel and NT believers are called "chosen". They were chosen for separate reasons. NT believers aren't chosen to protect the covenant, receiving the law, temple worship, per Rom 9:4.

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV Strong's,) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Just the wording of that verse, it is quite a stretch to imply that it pertains to Yeshua as the chosen one.

Since I haven't cited any Scripture, why assume I was thinking of Isa 45:4?

But how about these verses?
Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.
1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."

It seems pretty clear that Israel, corporately, is the elect of YHVH.

Agreed.

And Israel has screwed up so many times, with Moses even calling them a stiff necked, obstinate people, yet still YHVH calls Israel His elect. So election cannot be about works, but position in the eyes of YHVH.

No, just read Rom 9:4 regarding what Israel was chosen for.

Believers are elect in the eyes of YHVH because of being justified by His Messiah, Yeshua. A different deal than Israel. It is all about our position as believers with YHVH thru our faith in His Messiah, not our works.

You are misunderstanding. Election is about being chosen for service.

I have a thread in "debate with a Calvinist" under "Semper Reformada" about the purpose of election here: The purpose of Election[/QUOTE]

 

[Copperhead]

Since I haven't cited any Scripture, why assume I was thinking of Isa 45:4?

It was no assumption on my part. I was merely making the point that election is about position, not works.

You are misunderstanding. Election is about being chosen for service.

Ah. Ok. That is a different wording than before and makes sense. My bad. I was reading your earlier assertion wrong.

I don't really worry about the Calvanism / Arminianism game. I am a Calvanistic Arminian. Both positions are correct in what they assert, both are wrong in what they deny.

 

[BCsenior]

I await your explanation of John 10:28 and how it isn't about eternal security.

Of course it is, but you're missing the point entirely.
WHO does Jesus say His sheep are in this passage?
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Heads Up to everyone ... very few of us fit this description!
I suppose we can say very few are walking with Jesus on the narrow path.

Those who belong to Jesus hear His voice,
i.e. they are being led by God's Spirit (Romans 8:14).
Those who belong to Jesus have a personal relationship
with He and the Father (John 17:2).
Those who are following Jesus are obeying His commandments.

I'm here because the pastors are NOT teaching this.

 

[BCsenior]

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to
salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
-2 Thess. 2:13(KJV)

How're you progressing with your process of sanctification unto holiness?
Paul makes it clear in Romans 6 what's required,
which no one seems to understand:
slave of obedience > slave of righteousness > holiness
slave of sin > eternal death

 

[BCsenior]

Consult any commentary worth it weigh, and you'll see, who is it that does the choosing. And if it is God, then whether its a different Greek word than "elect" it is still God doing the chosing and it is election.

Yes, several passages make it clear to me that
God chooses His elect, they don't choose Him.
The elect's free-will choices come later
when they choose whether or not to co-operate.
BTW, the Lord makes it very difficult to NOT co-operate.
But, IMO, this is possible.

 

[DeaconDean]

Election unto Salvation

Election unto Salvation

Election unto Salvation

Election unto Salvation

41 verses about Election unto Salvation

Election unto Salvation

Now, if you will read instead of just posting out of reaction, you'll see, election unto salvation is taught.

And if these aren't enough, I have a ton more to support it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

How're you progressing with your process of sanctification unto holiness?
Paul makes it clear in Romans 6 what's required,
which no one seems to understand:
slave of obedience > slave of righteousness > holiness
slave of sin > eternal death

Let me ask you this.

Since Jesus died and arose, ascended into heaven, name me one person in the entire history of the world that has achieved total sanctification?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Jord]

The first, second, third, and fifth points in the OP show that once a person believes:
1. they HAVE eternal life John 5:24
2. eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God Rom 6:23, Rom 11:29
3. those given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH John 10:28

These are irrefutable facts. So even those who might later cease to believe in God are still saved for the very reasons above.

And those who just become rebellious are saved as well, because of the fourth point.

There is no ceasing to believe and/or rebelling with believers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It was no assumption on my part. I was merely making the point that election is about position, not works.

So, you still haven't read my thread on the purpose of election?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"I await your explanation of John 10:28 and how it isn't about eternal security."

Of course it is, but you're missing the point entirely.

No, the point is that all who receive eternal life have eternal security.

WHO does Jesus say His sheep are in this passage?
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Heads Up to everyone ... very few of us fit this description!
I suppose we can say very few are walking with Jesus on the narrow path.

So, you're going to violate the rules of language and claim that v.27 is the condition for never perishing. Well, it isn't. v.27 is a description of those who have "entered through Him" in v.9. Once a sheep has entered through Him, they are SAVED. And guaranteed that they shall never perish.

Those who belong to Jesus hear His voice,

Yes, that's WHY they believe in Him. Those who don't believe don't hear Him.

i.e. they are being led by God's Spirit (Romans 8:14).

Yes, the Holy Spirit convicts the world of their error about sin, righteousness and judgment.

Those who belong to Jesus have a personal relationship
with He and the Father (John 17:2).
Those who are following Jesus are obeying His commandments.

Not quite. The NT is full of commands to be obedient. It isn't automatic. It's commanded. And there are consequences for those who don't obey.

I'm here because the pastors are NOT teaching this.

I agree.

But, back to your point about v.27 and tying it to v.28.

The question is: when does a person possess eternal life? After a life of obedience, or following Him? We know that following Jesus is not a point in time occurrence. But beleiving in Him for salvation is.

So, when is one given eternal life? The answer to that determines when eternal security begins for the person.