Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

[Albion]

I'm inclined to think it is No.

Bible verses that lean one way are offset by those that lean the other way, but the Yes answer poses too many questions that just do not add up to a convincing understanding of the Gospel.

It would make God faithless. It assumes that we are strong enough to surmount all of life's challenges. And it would seem to make Satan the winner in the contest for men's souls. It is difficult to accept all of that which would be required if we were to stand on a Yes answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ron Gurley said: ↑
Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

Yes, of course ...
What do think NT phrases like these are referring to?
falling from faith
falling from grace

loss of fellowship, loss of blessings, things like that. There are no verses that tell us that these phrases mean loss of salvation.

drawing back to perdition

Let's look at the actual verse.

losing eternal life

There are NO verses that say this.

being blotted out of the Book of Life

Again, no verses say that anyone has, or can be, blotted out of the book of life.

In fact, this is a literary technique called litotes.

understatement in which an affirmative is expressed by the negative of the contrary (as in "not a bad singer" or "not unhappy")

Source: Definition of LITOTES

not being allowed to enter the city of the New Jerusalem
etc.

The context is clear; unbelievers. Not those who have believed.

Please give us your faulty view of what Paul is talking about in Romans 6.
This will be enough to prove how erroneous your view of the NT really is.

Faulty? What's faulty about the FACT that eternal life is a gift of God, in v.23.

And then, in Rom 11:29, Paul says that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

FYI, wishful tinkin' ain't gonna get no one inta heaven!

No one has said so. But those who have believed on Christ will get into heaven.

We gottsta go along with God's plan of salvation.
NOT OURS!

Here is God's plan, stated plainly:
John 3:15-16
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40, 47
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

These verses are clear as crystal. One HAS (as in possesses) eternal life WHEN one believes in Christ.

And, the result of being given eternal life is that one shall never perish.

That is God's plan.

 

[BCsenior]

Hopeless ... IMO, always and forever.

 

[Ben johnson]

I base my comment about God choosing who will believe on reformed doctrine of election. Since reformed election is about God choosing who to save, and since the Bible says that one must believe to be saved, reformed theology claims regeneration by God's choice naturally leads one to believe.

And throughout Scripture God enables ALL MEN to believe, without exclusion; can you deny Rom5:17-19 (justification came to the SAME "all men" as to whom came condemnation)? Or John12:32 (Jesus draws ALL MEN to Himself), or Rom11:32 (He shut up ALL in unbelief that He may have mercy on ALL MEN), or Matt22:2-14 (every person in view was "many-called", but only those who CHOSE to come [one refused for farming, another for business, a third refused the King's clean clothes] --- only those who CHOSE to come became "elect"!)?

So you see, the foundation for reformed election to salvation (which I disagree) is that God chooses who will believe.

And "monergistic heart-change-before-belief" is where it all starts; and Rom10:6-10 connects directly to Deut30:11-20 (Rm10:6 cites Deut30:12, Rm10:8 cites Deut30:14). It's the SAME FAITH with Jesus, as in the Old Covenant. And Deut30:12 is a foundational refutation of Monergism; it is NOT in Heaven that one must go get it and give it to us to make us hear it that we may observe it -- it is in our hearts and mouths. Both in hearts and mouths of those who confess believe and are saved Rm10:9-10), and in the hearts and mouths of those who turn away disobey and perish (Deut30:17-18); it is a choice, we choose life by obeying Him and holding fast to Him...

No, election is God choosing for service, not salvation.

I studied all 3 related Greek words translated either "choose", "chosen" or "choice", as noun, verb and adjective.

In the entire list in the NT where the adjective is used, not one case of being chosen for salvation occurred. In fact, I found 6 groups, categories, or kinds. Not sure what word is best to use. I'll just list the 6:
1. Jesus Christ. Isa 42:1, Matt 12:18, Luke 9:35, 23:35, 1 Pet 2:6
2. elect angels. 1 Tim 5:21
3. nation of Israel. Amos 3:2, Deut 7:6
4. NT believers. Eph 1:4
5. All 12 original apostles, including Judas. John 6:70 He was never saved.
6. Paul. Acts 9:15, 1 Tim 1:12

None of this list was chosen for salvation. But all of them were chosen, according to the Bible. So, what were they chosen for? Service, each and every one of them, including Judas.

Judas had to have been SAVED --- it's the only explanation for Jesus holding him up as proof that "leaving was possible", Jn6:67-70. If Judas was "never truly saved", then Jesus holding him up against Peter's "of-course-we-can't-leave", would be ludicrous.

 

[Ben johnson]

I said this:
"Jesus very specifically taught eternal security. He said:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. Jn 10:28"

You've missed the point of John 10:28 completely.

Sorry to be 3-1/2 years late. :embarrassed:

The basis for never perishing is simply to be given eternal life. Do you believe what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life?

Eternal life is imperishable and will not fade away, but it is reserved in Heaven for us who are protected by the power of faith. Whose faith? Which way does faith flow --- from God to man (we are but passive puppets in the hands of sovereignly-machinating-everything God), or does God command faith FROM men (and each decides, and receives the consequences of his decision)?

Now, the only question is: when is eternal life possessed by a person?

Jesus already answered that question a number of times previously in John's gospel.

For example,
John 3:
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

All these verses testify to the fact that whoever believes possesses (right now or currently), eternal life.

Did you notice how many of these use present participle, "are believing"? Why do you suppose that is? Contrast this with Heb3:12-14, we are warned not to be deceived by sin to an evil hardened heart that falls away from God, we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning ...firm until the end. Why do you suppose it was written that way?

That obviously means that the believer possesses eternal life WHEN they initially believe.

No, "present-active-participle" --- not "when", AS LONG AS.

So, the promise of never perishing is made to people WHEN they initially believe and are given eternal life.

Then there is Heb4:11, "do not fall and fail to enter God's rest by IMITATING Israel's unbelief and disobedience". Can we come to unbelief and leave salvation? That verse and many, MANY more plainly say so.

These verses ALL refer to eternal rewards, not life. The phrase about "not blotting out" is a technique known as "litotes". Look it up. It's a form of understatement to emphasize the opposite.

Really! Rev3:11 "steal-your-crown" is only shiny-rewards --- tell me, what would a deceiver/evil-spirit do to us to make us lose a reward? Are there some sins that remove some shiny crowns, but God fully overlooks???

I then said this:
"Jesus' promise is found in #2 above. We are saved by GRACE, and we are kept by that same GRACE. Period."

I'm afraid not; it's "by grace, through faith". On Eph2:8, noted commentator and Greek expert A.T.Robertson said, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours".

Eph 2:8 does NOT support the claim that we are kept by our own faith. If that were so, Jesus COULD NOT HAVE made His promise in John 10:28, which it seems you don't believe to be true. But is.

It's true; AND -- although no ONE can FORCE us from His hand, we can leave. Do you reject the whole story of the Prodigal, Luke15? Is a corpse, "still a son"? No! The son was DEAD, now is alive AGAIN!

Alive, dead, alive again! And "dead" does not reflect "unsaved".

"He never ceased being his father's son"​

Yes, he did; a corpse is not a son.

Does the verse say we are to live by faith for salvation? No, it does not. Please don't add to God's Word. Let the Word speak to you. Don't make up stuff.

Robertson is sound; "from faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal".

What do you think Peter meant in 1:1:9? "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation". Yes, it's our faith.

This speaks of spiritual growth. Not "how to maintain your salvation".

Jude 20-21 does NOT convey "not-keeping-ourselves-in-His-love", is possible? How does it not?

You've missed the point of the parable. The son and father REMAIN son and father throughout the parable. What was "lost", or "died" wasn't relationship, since they remained son and father, but fellowship between them.

Ahh, you embrace "Antinomianism" -- a "living-in-sin-spiritual-corpse", is still SAVED (father's son)!

Do you really believe that?

Are you familiar with 1 John 1? Count the # of times John mentioned "fellowship". It's very important. And count the number of times it is used in the NT.

We can be in saved RELATIONSHIP, but not in FELLOWSHIP. What kind of salvation exists that is not indwelt fellowship? Mere belief? (James2:19!)

What sins can break fellowship, but God will cheerfully overlook? What sins are okay with God? When Jesus said "...you will die in your sins", is there somewhere that teaches "Oh don't worry, SOME sins are perfectly OKAY with God"?

I then said:
"There are NO verses that speak of throwing away eternal life, or giving it away, or losing it."
In the book I wrote, I list ONE HUNDRED AND ONE.

Without a doubt, none of your list says what you think they say.[/quote]Really? Heb3:12-13 does not, or 4:11, or 10:26-29? James5:19-20? 2Cor 11:3?

If even one did, then Jesus' promise about never perishing on the basis of being given eternal life cannot be true. And we all know what that would mean. It would mean He lied to us. Is that your view? It HAS to be, if you think salvation can be lost.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, even when they fall back into sins, why they can be out of FELLOWSHIP with Me and I am not indwelling them (nor is the Holy Spirit), but they'll still cheerfully waltz through the pearly gates!"

Where is that verse again?

I failed to find anything about losing salvation in 2 Tim 2:15.

It's contrasting "dokimos" approved (2Tim2:15, James1:12), with "adokimos" unapproved/castaway (1Cor9:27, 2Cor13:5); and adokimos is 100% falling-from-salvation.

Then I said this:
"These verses have nothing to do with losing salvation. It's about reward: to reign with Christ. For those who endure. For those who don't endure, they will be DENIED the privilege of reigning with Christ."

How in the world could one come up with the silly notion that I even hinted that there are "acceptable" sins? Ridiculous.

If it's not "acceptable sins" that cause loss-of-rewards (but not loss-of-salvation), then what is it? What must one DO to lose mere rewards?

More important, what kind of salvation can exist without indwelt fellowship with Jesus and the Spirit? 1Jn1:3, Lk17:3 ("ginosko" intimate husband/wife knowledge!)

...therefore have no clue about eternal rewards being on the basis of faithfulness and obedience. The OSNAS group thinks faithfulness and obedience is the basis for maintaining salvation. Which disrespects the promise of Jesus in John 10:28.

With respect, do you stamp over verses like 2Cor11:3 and Heb4:11, with "not really"?

 

[Ben johnson]

More failure to fulfill 2 Tim 2:15.

" We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ."

First, this was written to saved people. That means those who HAVE a relationship with God through His Son. Fellowship speaks to the quality (or lack thereof) of that relationship.

Until I can convince you that "there is no saved relationship without indwelt fellowship with Jesus and the Spirit", you will never understand what salvation is.

Gal2:20 is not just a "hopeful some-day ideal"; it is central and critical to what we have with Jesus.

"Father, eternal life is KNOWING You, and knowing (Me)." Jn17:3 -- "ginosko", intimate husband/wife knowledge​

Let's take the physical relationship between father and child (prodigal son parable). The physical relationship between father and child is permanent. iow, once born, neither the child nor the parents can change that. The DNA is physical and permanent.

I'm sorry, a corpse is not a son; has a father anywhere ever brought out a pile of decaying bones and said, "This is my SON, we have a great relationship"?

There is a parallel in the spiritual. It is God who gives us new birth or regeneration. This makes God our Father. This relationship is just as permanent and is based on being born again of imperishable seed (1 Pet 1:23). Which directly affirms the promise of Jesus in John 10:28.

Regeneration is by the RECEIVED Spirit, Titus3:5-6; and regeneration can be later rejected. Remind me, have you ever answered Heb12:7-9, a truly born-again begotten child of God, can become unbegotten/illegitimate?

Now, is this relationship between father and son always pleasant and wonderful? Or is it possible that a "rift" can develop between father and son? Of course. Duh.

A father and his corpse-son, has an infinite rift. (Although, "Corpse Bride" was a pretty good movie; a love triangle --- did Emily love Victor enough to let him go, to marry Victoria?)

That is WHY believers must ensure they are IN fellowship with God and Christ. How does one do this? According to 1 John 1:9, through confession of sin.


As long as a believer either grieves (Eph 5:18) or quenches (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, they ARE out of fellowship and cannot do anything but sin.

Ahh, but a grieved/quenched/resisted Spirit will still INDWELL a walking-in-sin unbeliever?

The ONLY time a believer cannot sin is when they are IN fellowship (1 John 3:9).

Which is why "OSNAS" is the complete, thorough theme of Scripture. Why do you think 1Cor10:12-13 includes the word "FALL"?

What can a believer fall FROM?

Does anything in Galatians say we can be severed from salvation? No, of course not.

It says "fallen-from-grace"; thank goodness we have enough ink for our "NOT REALLY" stamp.

So, what can be severed is fellowship, JUST LIKE the stupid prodigal.

No one can have a relationship with a dead person, except in a cutsie movie with Victor, Victoria, and Emily-the-dead-but-not-really-gone-girl.

You've got a huge problem. If salvation can be lost, then Jesus is a LIAR. Simple as that. But since Jesus is NOT a liar, salvation cannot be lost.

Or, you're just stamping "NOT REALLY" on verses like 2Cor11:3 and many others. Goodness --- we can be deceived just like Eve was! Exactly what was Eve's deception?

satan: "Don't worry, you won't really die."​

That is what OSAS teaches, "don't worry you won't (can't!) really die". Oh yes we can! Have you read John Chrysostem on OSAS? I'll post it if you want...

Now, from v.12 (2Tim1:12-14), exactly what has Paul "entrusted to Him until that day"? His very soul, of course. And Paul says that Christ "is able to guard" what Paul entrusted to Him. This is eternal security.

Verse 14 says we are to "guard, by the Spirit (His power) the treasure entrusted to us" --- could that treasure be anything OTHER than "eternal life"? Why would we guard it?

v.14 explains that this sealing is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance "until the redemption of God's possession (believers).

Guarantee is "arrabon earnest", is fully breakable. Why won't you believe "if you continue in the faith and not be moved away from Jesus-the-hope"?

Please proceed to provide any verse that teaches that a person can revoke their eternal life.

All of Hebrews; 2:1-3, 3:12-14, 4:1, 4:11, 6:4-6, 6:7-12, 10:26-29, 10:34, 12:7-9 (a truly begotten child of God can BECOME unadopted/illegitimate!), 12:15, 12:25, 13:9.

2Cor11:3. Col2:6-8. All of 2Peter, especially 1:5-11, 2:20-22, and 3:17. Literally dozens more.

Which is what "savage wolves" try to do.

Oh come on -- you can QUOTE Acts20:29 savages wolves will not spare the flock, and perverse men draw away disciples --- and you still think "the flock" and "disciples" are not at risk?

How do you do that?

Anyone can be drawn away from true doctrine.

But "don't worry, they won't really die"; they will be in FALSE-DOCTRINE-SAVED.

(No they won't.)

Those who believe salvation can be lost have rejected Jesus' promise, and as such, have been drawn away to false doctrine.

I've seen NO verses about falling from salvation. That is just made up.

Sigh.

OK. To fall from the faith, or wander from the faith isn't the same as falling from salvation. But that's your opinion. But a wrong one. Did Jesus LIE in John 10:28? Of course not. But you don't believe what He promised if you think salvation can be lost.

Right; we can be "fallen-faithlessly-saved", and "out-of-fellowship (unindwelt!) saved", and "walking-in-sin-saved"?

Why won't the verses you've been given, convince you?