Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

[FreeGrace2]

The problem is mainly with the word "believe".
There is NO English word that incorporates:
true heart BELIEF (as opposed to intellectual belief)
true deep FAITH
real solid TRUST
... let alone OBEDIENCE.
We won't talk about obedience, lest thou has a heart attack!

Sure we can. But pisteuo is about trusting. Speaking of "true" belief, faith and trust, one cannot truly obey UNTIL they've trusted in the work of Christ on their behalf.

No one is saved by being obedient, unless one defines "obey the gospel" as believing in the finished work of Christ on their behalf.

The correct understanding of what is meant by "believe" solves the whole dilemna.

See above.

Because the warnings are for those elect who are NOT following the above list.

Exactly! But none of the warnings are about losing salvation on the basis of the wrong kind of works, or any sins, or any kind of lifestyle.

If that were true, then Jesus Christ didn't die for every sin. But Hebrews is clear that He did.

Naturally, the warnings are NOT for the non-elect for that would be a waste of time.

Right.

 

[FreeGrace2]

IMO, the warnings are mostly to HELP the elect get and stay on the narrow path.

What is your view about what the warnings entail?

God moves heaven and earth to get His elect into heaven.
But, it's possible for an elect to refuse to co-operate!

OK. So, in those cases, what's the final outcome for the un-cooperating elect?

 

[BCsenior]

What is your view about what the warnings entail?
OK. So, in those cases, what's the final outcome for the un-cooperating elect?

There are some extremely obvious warnings about losing eternal life.
My personal fav is Romans 6.
But, as with most of his writings ...
it is mandatory to understand his extremely tactful writing style.

The obvious warnings concern the obvious loss of eternal life.
IMO, it's obvious merely from reading the English.
It's difficult for me to see how it's necessary to receive spiritual revelation about this!
But I guess it's possible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are some extremely obvious warnings about losing eternal life.

I disagree. In fact, none of the warnings even mentions salvation or eternal life being lost.

My personal fav is Romans 6.
But, as with most of his writings ...
it is mandatory to understand his extremely tactful writing style.

Oh, iow, one must 'read between the lines' to find the teaching?

The obvious warnings concern the obvious loss of eternal life.

Loss is obvious, but it's just as obvious it's not eternal life.

IMO, it's obvious merely from reading the English.

Why isn't John 10:28 obviously about eternal security; that one cannot lose eternal life?

" I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Please explain what Jesus was guaranteeing, if not eternal security.

It's difficult for me to see how it's necessary to receive spiritual revelation about this!
But I guess it's possible.

I await your explanation of John 10:28 and how it isn't about eternal security.

 

[Ron Gurley]

2 John 1...Believers: Walk According to Jesus' Commandments to RECEIVE REWARDS
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world,
those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.
This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished,(PREACHING ON REWARDS, NOT SALVATION!)
but that you may receive a full REWARD.
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide (DWELL) in the teaching of Christ, does not have God('S REWARDS);
the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.('S REWARDS)
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, (Jesus Christ Has come in the flesh)
do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

 

[FreeGrace2]

2 John 1...Believers: Walk According to Jesus' Commandments to RECEIVE REWARDS
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world,
those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.
This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished,(PREACHING ON REWARDS, NOT SALVATION!)
but that you may receive a full REWARD.
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide (DWELL) in the teaching of Christ, does not have God('S REWARDS);
the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.('S REWARDS)
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, (Jesus Christ Has come in the flesh)
do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

 

[Ron Gurley]

RESPONSE TO PRIOR POST:
"God moves heaven and earth to get His "elect" into heaven.But, it's possible for an "elect" to refuse to co-operate!"

The Calvinistic doctrines of "elect" / "election" are FALSE!

Matthew 24:31
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet
and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

elect...Greek 1588...eklektos...
A.chosen by God,
i.to obtain salvation through Christ
a.Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God (ALL BELIEVERS!)
ii.the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
iii.choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

That God irrevocably PRE-DETERMINES and/or PRE-SELECTS some spirits for salvation (and others not!)
is contrary to ALL Scripture supporting the true doctrine of "free will" beginning with angels and Eden.

God spiritually CALLS/DRAWS ALL MEN!
Man must spiritually CHOOSE to accept unto salvation or reject unto condemnation.

 

[Ron Gurley]

God is not an Indian-Giver. What he freely gives, He never takes away when accepted. He will not UNDO what His Grace through spirit-led FAITH/BELIEF did. The salvation event changes Man's spirit for eternity!

 

[FreeGrace2]

RESPONSE TO PRIOR POST:
"God moves heaven and earth to get His "elect" into heaven.But, it's possible for an "elect" to refuse to co-operate!"

The Calvinistic doctrines of "elect" / "election" are FALSE!

Matthew 24:31
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet
and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

elect...Greek 1588...eklektos...
A.chosen by God,
i.to obtain salvation through Christ
a.Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God (ALL BELIEVERS!)
ii.the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
iii.choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

That God irrevocably PRE-DETERMINES and/or PRE-SELECTS some spirits for salvation (and others not!)
is contrary to ALL Scripture supporting the true doctrine of "free will" beginning with angels and Eden.

God spiritually CALLS/DRAWS ALL MEN!
Man must spiritually CHOOSE to accept unto salvation or reject unto condemnation.

Amen!

For a detailed explanation of what the doctrine of election actually is:
The purpose of Election

 

[HenryM]

There is no such thing as corporate election. All election is individual.

God elected each Israeli to be born as Israeli. Nobody gets born into any nation by chance, but by God's will.

But God's OT promise to Jews is not a promise for eternal life. Phrase "eternal life" is not even once mentioned in the OT (KJV), while phrase "everlasting life" is mentioned only once in whole OT, in Daniel. God's promise to Jews in OT is a promise for earthly blessings with condition for them to keep His commandments.

So each Israeli was individually elected to be born as Israeli and was individually given God's promise. But since promise was conditional, many Jews, although all individually selected by God, didn't get what was promised to them.

As far as selection goes, same is for Christians. Even more clearly. There is no corporate election. Each Christian is individually selected before foundation of the world to be saved. But this time, since promise is for eternal life and is not conditional apart for believing the gospel, each individually selected Christian gets eternal life (because God gives each faith to believe on Jesus, making salvation a 100% gift, so no one can boast).

 

[FreeGrace2]

As far as selection goes, same is for Christians. Even more clearly. There is no corporate election. Each Christian is individually selected before foundation of the world to be saved.

Please click on the link in post #369 for a detailed explanation that election is for service, not salvation.

 

[HenryM]

Please click on the link in post #369 for a detailed explanation that election is for service, not salvation.

Please understand that election is individual. Concerning OT Jews it was about earthly salvation, concerning Christians it is about eternal salvation.

I saw your text, you even wrote that apostles weren't individually elected, but are elected as a group. There is no such thing. Jesus chose them individually and formed a group out of them. Like a coach would chose a team.

Jesus also chose their eternal salvation, except for one: "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you". And for the one who was of the devil, nowhere it says that Judas chose the devil's side or chose not to believe on Jesus. In fact, Jesus gives a mark for devil to enter Judas and gives command to devil to do his deed, because the time has come for it, in John 13:26-27.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Please click on the link in post #369 for a detailed explanation that election is for service, not salvation."

Please understand that election is individual. Concerning OT Jews it was about earthly salvation, concerning Christians it is about eternal salvation.

I suggest clicking on the link I provided. Election is about service, not about salvation.

I saw your text, you even wrote that apostles weren't individually elected, but are elected as a group. There is no such thing. Jesus chose them individually and formed a group out of them. Like a coach would chose a team.

OK, when is a "team" not a "group"? Yes, individuals on a team, but as a team, they are a group.

Jesus also chose their eternal salvation, except for one: "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

Please provide ANY verse that says election is for salvation. My post proves that election is about service.

And for the one who was of the devil, nowhere it says that Judas chose the devil's side or chose not to believe on Jesus.

What verse says that Judas ever believed? None.

In fact, Jesus gives a mark for devil to enter Judas and gives command to devil to do his deed, because the time has come for it, in John 13:26-27.

I found no mention of Jesus giving a mark for the devil in that passage. Where does that come from?

But, since none of the 7 exampes I provided can be said to be for salvation, please show any examples that were specifially for salvation.

Since the first exampe I provided was Jesus Christ Himself, that alone should prove that election cannot be for salvation. Jesus wasn't elected for salvation.

 

[HenryM]

Election is about service, not about salvation.

No, that's not the rule that Bible sets. That's your personal bias. Election is about whatever God elects one for. There is no Biblical law that says election is about service. But, by the way, basically all who are elected for what one could say is good service on earth, are also elected for salvation. It goes hand in hand. Unsaved people are not authors of books in the Bible. On the other hand, there is not one verse that says something along the line: "and then he chose to believe God."

OK, when is a "team" not a "group"? Yes, individuals on a team, but as a team, they are a group.

Jesus elected them individually. How could I write that more clear? Maybe like this - Jesus elected them individually. You wrote that it was group election. No, it was not. There is no such thing. It was individual election. Group election would mean that there were number of different groups of potential apostles, and then Jesus chose one of those groups. But there was no such groups in existence. Jesus chose each member individually and formed a group out of them. That's not group election.

Please provide ANY verse that says election is for salvation. My post proves that election is about service.

Please provide ANY verse that says (all) election is (exclusively) for service. Bible proves that election of Chistians, predestination of Christians, is about salvation (edit: check post after this one, for explanation of one out of many examples).

What verse says that Judas ever believed? None.

? I didn't say anything to that effect. I said there is not one verse in the Bible that says that Judas chose the devil's side nor that Judas chose not to believe.

I found no mention of Jesus giving a mark for the devil in that passage. Where does that come from?

As I provided, John 13:26-27. If you don't get it, read whole passage. If you still don't get it... Jesus first says: "Very truly I tell you, one of you is going to betray me." Then John asks him who is that one, and Jesus answers: "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then Jesus dips the bread and gives it to Judas, and "as soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him." Looks very coordinated to me.

And then Jesus commanded devil to do what he is to do.

But, since none of the 7 exampes I provided can be said to be for salvation, please show any examples that were specifially for salvation.

Your conclusions are your personal bias. Please provide verse for each of your examples where it says that election is exclusively for service and not for salvation which is left for personal choice.

For example, I provided the example that apostles were chosen for salvation when Jesus said in John 15: "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you". Those are not words about election for service. Judas was also elected for service, but not for salvation, and so it doesn't apply to him that he is not of the world and that world hated him. Just the opposite, Judas was already documented to be in this world as a thief in John 12, to be of the devil in John 13, whom as such world rewarded richly when he betrayed Jesus.

Since the first exampe I provided was Jesus Christ Himself, that alone should prove that election cannot be for salvation. Jesus wasn't elected for salvation.

This is some nice logic, in some parallel universe. Since apples are sweet, that alone should prove that cabbage is sweet too. But coming from a free-willer, I'm not surprised.

 

[DeaconDean]

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" -2 Thess. 2:13(KJV)

The Greek word in this verse to focus on is "εἵλατο" meaning "to take, to chose"

But, the meaning goes deeper than that. In this instance, Theos (God) having made the "choice" links this directly to "ἐκ-λεκτός (ek-lektos, 1588), which menas: "
1. chosen by God, and

a. to obtain salvation through Christ (see ἐκλέγω); hence Christians are called "οἱ ἐκλεκτοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ, the chosen or elect of God,"

Source

And I also add:

"2 Thess. 2:13, "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth", this passage is so explicit, so clear. "Chosen," that is, elected, from the beginning, that is, from whenever the beginning was, the only beginning man knows is the creation so at least chosen from the creation. But in my mind it goes beyond that. Chosen to salvation, eternal life. How? Through the "sanctification of the Spirit". Again my dictionary says "sanctification" is "to make pure as from sin". So the chosen ones are made "pure as from sin", not only sanctified by the Holy Spirit but because they also believed the truth. Who and what is the truth? Jesus said in the book of John, "I am the way the truth and the life," and so the elect are chosen to salvation not only by being made pure but also they believed the record of Jesus the Christ as given in the Bible, believed that which was given by God as His testimony of His son. In the book of John, Jesus states the He is the way, the truth and the life, and He also said "No man cometh unto the Father but by me". There is no other way but the way of truth, there is no other way but through Jesus Christ. There is only one way to the Father, Jesus Christ. And the Father has testified of this by giving us His Word.


Referring back to 2 Thess. 2:13, the words "chosen you" is election or the party of the "elect ones"; as the circumcised are called the "circumcision": and the angels that stood are distinguished from those that fell, by the title of "elect angels". The elect are to be "chosen vessels," this in Acts 9:15, "vessels of mercy," in Rom. 9:23 as those that are left are called "vessels of wrath" in Rom. 9:22. The Scripture still identifies both groups with distinguishing characteristics.
"

Source

So when Paul wrote the Thessalonians saying "chosen you unto salvation" he means they were "elected unto salvation".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"I suggest clicking on the link I provided. Election is about service, not about salvation."

No, that's not the rule that Bible sets.

Maybe the post wasn't read. I proved from examples that election is being chosen for service, not salvation.

That's your personal bias.

Nonsense. The examples are from Scripture, and ALL are about service, and NONE of them are about salvation.

Election is about whatever God elects one for.

Which says nothing. The examples in my post demonstrate what election is about.

There is no Biblical law that says election is about service.

What is this obsession with rules and laws?? I never said anything about either one.

I DID show, by examples, what election is about.

But, by the way, basically all who are elected for what you could say is good service on earth, are also elected for salvation.

I'm still waiting for any examples that support your personal bias.

There is not one verse that says something along the line: "and then he chose to believe God." There is no choice of man revealed in the Bible for this.

I sure hope you're not serious here. That's just ludicrous.

Acts 18:4 - Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
2 Cor 5:11 - Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.

When trying to persuade others of something, isn't that EXACTLY THE SAME as trying to change their mind, which is a choice? Of course it is.

If these aren't enough, let's consider the opinion of a certain king:
Acts 26:28 - Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?”

Agrippa knew exactly what Paul was trying to do. Make a decision for Christ, which is to believe in Him.

Jesus elected them individually. How could I write that more clear?

I couldn't have been more clear. A "team" is a "group". Period.

All teams and groups are made up of individuals. But so what? Eph 1:4 very clearly and plainly indicates that God chooses believers.

" For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

So, who are the "us" here? Well, Eph 1:19 defines who the "us" are.

"and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength"

See? Real clear.

Maybe like this - Jesus elected them individually. You wrote that it was group election. No, it was not. There is no such thing. It was individual election.

Your personal bias is noted.

Group election would mean that there were number of different groups of potential apostles, and then Jesus chose one of those groups.

No it wouldn't mean that at all. It doesn't even make sense.

But there was no such groups in existence. Jesus chose each member individually and formed a group out of them. That's not group election.

You yourself called it a team. Which is a group. And Jesus addressed the group when He told them that He chose them. John 6:70 and 15:16.

Maybe to make it more clear this way - Jesus elected them individually.

Again, your personal bias is noted.

Please provide ANY verse that says (all) election is (exclusively) for service.

Let's not play such childish games. Demanding some arbitrarily worded verse as the ONLY WAY to prove something is ridiculous.

But, how about applying your own rules to yourself. Where is there any verse that says that someone or anyone is elected to salvation?

Bible proves that election of Chistians, predestination of Christians, is about salvation.

I proved from biblical examples that election is about service. You've so far proven nothing.

As I provided, John 13:26-27. If you don't get it, read whole passage. If you still don't get it... Jesus first says: "Very truly I tell you, one of you is going to betray me." Then John asks him who is that one, and Jesus answers: "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then Jesus dips the bread and gives it to Judas, and "as soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him." Looks very coordinated to me.

I seriously question your vision, given what all you've posted.

And then Jesus commanded devil to do what he is to do.

OK, time to adjust your goggles. Which verse says that Jesus commended the devil to do anything?

Those with 20/20 vision clearly see that Jesus was speaking to JUDAS, not the devil, as you imagine.

Your conclusions are your personal bias.

I proved my claim from examples from the Bible. Unlike yourself, who continues to express your own personal bias. Where are your examples from Scripture?

Please provide verse for each of your examples where it says that election is exclusively for service and not for salvation which is left for personal choice.

The examples I gave speak for themselves. And again, I don't play childish games.

But I'll turn your own rule on yourself. Please provide any verse that says that election is exclusively for salvation.

For example, I provided the example that apostles were chosen for salvation when Jesus said: "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

This doesn't support your claim. The bolded words only mean that He chose from the world. There is NO MENTION of salvation in this verse. Nor insinuation.

Those are not words about election for service.

Yes, they are.

Judas was also elected for service, but not for salvation, and so it doesn't apply to him that he was out of the world and that world hated him. In fact, world rewarded him richly when he betrayed Jesus.

Really grabbing at straws now, eh.

This is some nice logic, for a fiction. Since apples are sweet, that alone should prove that cabbage is sweet too. But coming from a free-willer, I'm not surprised.

Snarkiness aside, you've yet to give ANY verse that teaches that election is about or for salvation.

I HAVE provided an extensive list of examples of who God has elected, and NONE of them were elected for salvation. All were elected for service.

But, personal biases must be set aside in order to see clearly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" -2 Thess. 2:13(KJV)

The Greek word in this verse to focus on is "εἵλατο" meaning "to take, to chose"

But, the meaning goes deeper than that. In this instance, Theos (God) having made the "choice" links this directly to "ἐκ-λεκτός (ek-lektos, 1588), which menas: "
1. chosen by God, and

a. to obtain salvation through Christ (see ἐκλέγω); hence Christians are called "οἱ ἐκλεκτοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ, the chosen or elect of God,"

This is the only verse in the NT that includes both "chose" and "salvation". However, the Greek word is totally unrelated to the verb used for "elect". Here, the word is 'haireomai', while the verb for elect is 'eklegomai'. The noun is ekloge, and the adjective is eklektos. So this verse is not about election, but about the mechanics or mechanism by which man is saved; which is "through sanctification by the Spirit and (or even) belief in the truth".

iow, God chose (not elected) the method by which man is saved. Man is saved by grace THROUGH FAITH (2 Thess 2:13) , according to Eph 2:8.

God chose the way man will be saved. It's expressed this way in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

How is this not a choice?

Notice that the verse doesn't say that God chose who would believe, which is the real foundation for the Calvinist doctrine of election.

So when Paul wrote the Thessalonians saying "chosen you unto salvation" he means they were "elected unto salvation".

God Bless

Till all are one.

Paul was indicating the method by which one is saved, which is "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth". What's what God chose.

It is an error to equate 'haireomai' with 'eklegomai'. They are different.

Here's a simple but deep truth:
All elections involve a choice.
Very few choices involve an election.

That's the difference.

 

[HenryM]

...

If I didn't know how reality works, by now I would actually think that you are mentally retarded. But I know (edit: better to say I guess) that you are just proud like a baby. And there is no discussion with proud baby.

You still didn't correct your statement that "The Election of the 12 Disciples is a group or corporate election".

No, it is not group election.

Group election in this context is election between groups. You understand that? It's when there are many groups and you elect one of those groups. Like God choosing one already defined group of people (Israel) out of all other defined groups of people (other nations).

There where no groups of apostles walking around where Jesus chose one of those groups to be His 12 apostles.

No, Jesus individually chose each of the apostles and created a group out of them. That's no group election. That's individual election.

Apostles were individually elected.

You arguing against it is like arguing that 2+3 equals 7 and keeping at it. You exhibit some serious dispute with words, logic and reality. From earthly perspective that looks like mental retardation. But it's not retardation. It's an example of being proud like a baby.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If I didn't know how reality works, by now I would actually think that you are mentally retarded.

This is just pathetic. Throwing ad hominems is a major tactic of the fascist left.

You still didn't correct your statement that "The Election of the 12 Disciples is a group or corporate election".

There was nothing to correct. Oh, except your comments.

No, it is not group election.

You're free to call it whatever you wish.

Group election in this context is election between groups.

Says who? I never even mentioned groupS. Jesus elected a group of 12 as disciples and apostles.

You understand that? It's when there are many groups and you elect one of those groups.

I think you need to review what a group election means.

Like God choosing one already defined group of people (Israel) out of all other defined groups of people (other nations).

Yes, that's another group. Just as all believers are a group that God chose, to be holy and blameless. Eph 1:4

There where no groups of apostles walking around where Jesus chose one of those groups to be His 12 apostles.

Your failure to grasp such a simple concept is stunning.

No, Jesus individually chose each of the apostles and created a group out of them. That's no group election. That's individual election.

Again, you're free to call it whatever your heart desires.

Apostles were individually elected.

See above.

You arguing against it is like arguing that 2+3 equals 7 and keeping at it.

That's just your failure to understand a simple concept.

You exhibit some serious dispute with words, logic and reality.

Why don't you at least try to prove these things? Claims are empty without evidence.

From earthly perspective that looks like mental retardation.

That's it. Keep up the fascist left tactic. But it hasn't worked for them.

But it's not retardation. It's an example of being proud like a baby.

It seems your only focus and obsession is over the 12 disciples and individual election.

I've requested any verse that teaches that election is for salvation, and all you've done is perseverate and obsess over whether the 12 disciples were individually elected or corporately elected.

All you've done is share your obsession, and totally ignored the evidence from all the examples that I've provided, which includes Scripture.

You've done none of that. I doubt that you can. No, I know that you can't.

 

[HenryM]

...

You are still arguing that election of apostles was not individual election but group election. Just like I said, that can make you look like you are mentally retarded. But I know, maybe better to say I guess, you are probably just proud like a baby.

And there is no discussion with that kind of person.