Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

FreeGrace2 · Sep 24, 2017

Ron Gurley said: ↑
The NUMBER of VERSES + WEIGHT of them + IN CONTEXT + ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS of all Scripture fully support the true doctrine of " Eternal Security" aka "OSAS".

PLEASE: try to rebut my POST#313 above!!!
If one does not, the truth WINS OUT!

Ben johnson said:
I just did, Ron, a couple posts back in my reply to "Free Grace 2". I'd love to read your thoughts...

The attempt at rebuttal of my post failed. As shown in #340. It was your response that was refuted.

Ben johnson · Sep 24, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
I said this:
"Jesus very specifically taught eternal security. He said:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. Jn 10:28"

Goodness, FG2 -- these posts aren't limited? I will reply to your post, but be warned -- your post was long, mine will be longer...

You've missed the point of John 10:28 completely.

The basis for never perishing is simply to be given eternal life. Do you believe what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life?

Do you think someone can have an understanding of specific verses, which allows dismissal of other verses? Meaning to ask in respect -- I gave you several verses which cannot fit "OSAS". If your understanding of Jn10:26-28 is right, what will you do with the other verses?

No ONE can FORCE you from His hand; we very much can remove ourselves by unbelief.

Now, the only question is: when is eternal life possessed by a person?

And THAT is the WHOLE ISSUE -- when is a person "saved", and what does that mean? In Matt25 Jesus separates the "sheep" (saved) from the "goats" (unsaved). What do the sheep have, that the goats do not?

In 1Jn5:11-13, he who HAS JESUS has eternal life. He who does not have Jesus does not have eternal life. Then -- 2Jn1:5-9 we must watch ourselves against deceivers that we not lose what we have wrought, but that we receive full reward; (BECAUSE!) anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings, has not God (no longer!) --- but he WHO abides has the Father and the Son!

Jesus already answered that question a number of times previously in John's gospel.

For example,
John 3:
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

In both cases, "present-active-participle" --- he who IS BELIEVING.

What if we cease???

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

All these verses testify to the fact that whoever believes possesses (right now or currently), eternal life.

And they ALL are "present-active-participle". As another poster eloquently cited, "take care, BRETHREN, that there not be in any of you an unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God; but encourage one another, lest any one be hardened by deceitful sin. We are partners (metochos--Heb3:1, 3:14, 6:4, 12:8) in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance FIRM UNTIL THE END..." Heb3:12-14

Any of that unclear, FG2?

Ben johnson · Sep 24, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
That obviously means that the believer possesses eternal life WHEN they initially believe.

No, it does not; it means "a believer possesses eternal life AS they possess Jesus"!

Can a believer cease to believe? What did we (you and I) just read in Heb3?

So, the promise of never perishing is made to people WHEN they initially believe and are given eternal life.

IF we HOLD FAST firm until the end. Have you considered Deut30:11-20? It connects directly to Rom10:6-9; Rm10:6 cites Deut30:12, and Rm10:8 cites Deut30:14.

These verses ALL refer to eternal rewards, not life. The phrase about "not blotting out" is a technique known as "litotes". Look it up. It's a form of understatement to emphasize the opposite.

HOLD FAST that no one STEALS YOUR CROWN -- that's not "crown-of-life", Jm1:12? It is.

You think demons waste all their time stealing shiny BAUBLES from us? 1Tim4:1!

I then said this:
"Jesus' promise is found in #2 above. We are saved by GRACE, and we are kept by that same GRACE. Period."

No; 1Pet1:4-5 "kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH". 1Pet1:9, "receive as the OUTCOME OF OUR FAITH salvation".

Eph 2:8 does NOT support the claim that we are kept by our own faith. If that were so, Jesus COULD NOT HAVE made His promise in John 10:28, which it seems you don't believe to be true. But is.

On Eph2:8, Paul says "grace is God's part, faith is ours".

Does the verse say we are to live by faith for salvation? No, it does not. Please don't add to God's Word. Let the Word speak to you. Don't make up stuff.

Bunches of them do; you and I just read Heb3, 1Pet1, Jude, we can read many others!

Are you willing?

Ben johnson · Sep 24, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
This speaks of spiritual growth. Not "how to maintain your salvation".

"Keep yourselves in God's love" is not "stay-saved"? How is it not?

You're familiar with Luke15?

Click to expand...

Very.

Then you have three choices.
1. It's a story, NOT REALLY POSSIBLE.
2. The Prodigal was "fornicating/drunk/carousing/SAVED"
3. The prodigal was truly spiritually dead, but repented returned and was alive again.

Which did Jesus mean?

You've missed the point of the parable. The son and father REMAIN son and father throughout the parable. What was "lost", or "died" wasn't relationship, since they remained son and father, but fellowship between them.

Ahhh -- you hold "Antinomianism". Fornicating/drunk/carousing/SAVED.

What about 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21 ("those who DO these things SHALL NOT INHERIT")? What about 1Jn3:5-10? ("No one who practices sin knows Him")?

Ben johnson · Sep 24, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
Are you familiar with 1 John 1? Count the # of times John mentioned "fellowship". It's very important. And coun the number of times it is used in the NT.

Click to expand...

you believe in "salvation with or without fellowship"; how can there be salvation without intimate communion between Jesus and believer?

I then said:
"There are NO verses that speak of throwing away eternal life, or giving it away, or losing it."
In the book I wrote, I list ONE HUNDRED AND ONE.

Click to expand...

Without a doubt, none of your list says what you think they say. If even one did, then Jesus' promise about never perishing on the basis of being given eternal life cannot be true. And we all know what that would mean. It would mean He lied to us. Is that your view? It HAS to be, if you think salvation can be lost.

With respect, you are completely failing to show how any of the verses being cited here can simply be stamped "NOT REALLY".

I failed to find anything about losing salvation in 2 Tim 2:15.

Of course it doesn't; but it presents "dokimos" approved (Jm1:12), which is opposed to "unapproved/castaway" in 1Cor9:27 and 2Cor13:5.

" Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth."

I don't see the word 'salvation', or 'eternal life' or ANY reference to losing either.

What I DO see is an emphasis on studying (by doing my best to present mysealf to God) in order to be approved. In which case I will not be ashamed because I correctly handle the word of truth.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost are NOT approved because they haven't done their best to be approved or correctly handled the word of truth.

If you cannot answer the verses being cited to you, then how can you be "correctly handling the word of truth"? Respectfully asked...

In fact, they have rejected the promise of Jesus in John 10:28 about those who are given eternal life shall never perish.

How about Col1:21-23? We are reconciled to God IF we continue in the faith and not be moved away from the Hope (from Jesus, 1Tim1:1)"?

What the word does NOT mean is to lose one's saved state.

Then I said this:
"These verses have nothing to do with losing salvation. It's about reward: to reign with Christ. For those who endure. For those who don't endure, they will be DENIED the privilege of reigning with Christ."

But they'll still waltz through Eternity's gates with all their sins? Do you believe that?

How in the world could one come up with the silly notion that I even hinted that there are "acceptable" sins? Ridiculous. It's just that you've failed to fulfill 2 Tim 2:15 by not correctly handling the word of truth and therefore have no clue about eternal rewards being on the basis of faithfulness and obedience. The OSNAS group thinks faithfulness and obedience is the basis for maintaining salvation. Which disrespects the promise of Jesus in John 10:28.

You are the one who said "if we do not endure"; unenduring, is walking in sin. That's what it is.

More failure to fulfill 2 Tim 2:15.

" We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ."

First, this was written to saved people. That means those who HAVE a relationship with God through His Son. Fellowship speaks to the quality (or lack thereof) of that relationship.

Let's take the physical relationship between father and child (prodigal son parable). The physical relationship between father and child is permanent. iow, once born, neither the child nor the parents can change that. The DNA is physical and permanent.

"Lost/dead" --- is still SAVED?

Drunken/fornicating/carousing SAVED? Antinomianism/Gnosticism? Will you please comment on 1Jn3:5-10? We CANNOT sin (practicingly) if we abide in Him. Where is the "exception" (get-outta-jail-free-card)?

There is a parallel in the spiritual. It is God who gives us new birth or regeneration. This makes God our Father. This relationship is just as permanent and is based on being born again of imperishable seed (1 Pet 1:23). Which directly affirms the promise of Jesus in John 10:28.

Regeneration is BY BELIEF; it is through the "poured Spirit" in Titus3:5-6, and the Spirit is poured after belief Acts11:15-17. Same "ekcheo-poured".

Now, is this relationship between father and son always pleasant and wonderful? Or is it possible that a "rift" can develop between father and son? Of course. Duh.

That is WHY believers must ensure they are IN fellowship with God and Christ. How does one do this? According to 1 John 1:9, through confession of sin.

As long as a believer either grieves (Eph 5:18) or quenches (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, they ARE out of fellowship and cannot do anything but sin.

The ONLY time a believer cannot sin is when they are IN fellowship (1 John 3:9).

See? You said it again --- "sinfully saved".

And again I ask you about 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10?

The only thing that offends me is when believers deny the truth of John 10:28; that those Jesus has given eternal life (at the MOMENT they intially believe) shall never perish. That is offensive to me. It shows a total failure to fulfill 2 Tim 2:15.

Does anything in Galatians say we can be severed from salvation? No, of course not.

Ahhh --- "saved by grace", then "fallen-from-grace" does not mean "unsaved".

Do you believe that?

So, what can be severed is fellowship, JUST LIKE the stupid prodigal.

I have and I love the verses. Now, study to present your own self as approved to God and apply v.13 to John 10:28. Those who have eternal life have been GIVEN eternal life. By whom? By Jesus Himself. And we know what He says about those He gives eternal life. They shall NEVER PERISH. But it appears that you don't believe that.

But you're not going to respond to 2Jn1:7-9.

It certainly can't mean he lost salvation. Or Jesus was a LIAR in John 10:28.

Here's the fact: when a believer either doesn't believe, or no longer believes what Jesus promises, IN THAT SENSE, no longer has Him.

You've got a huge problem. If salvation can be lost, then Jesus is a LIAR. Simple as that. But since Jesus is NOT a liar, salvation cannot be lost. Simple as that.

One has to ask themselves, 'save yourselves'...from WHAT? What's the context?
12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet this is no cause for shame, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day.
13 What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
14 Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.

Just as I thought; you missed a verse, which is v.14.

What is crystal clear in these verses is that there are NO words about losing salvation anywhere.

Now, from v.12, exactly what has Paul "entrusted to Him until that day"? His very soul, of course. And Paul says that Christ "is able to guard" what Paul entrusted to Him. This is eternal security.

Interesting that you didn't include v.14. It's directly related to another passage written by Paul in Eph 1:13-14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Notice the "past tense" "when you believed", or "having believed". As a result of a point in time of believing, the one who has believed IS sealed with the Holy Spirit IN HIM. The believer is placed in union with Christ.

v.14 explains that this sealing is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance "until the redemption of God's possession (believers).

Again, eternal security.

Please proceed to provide any verse that teaches that a person can revoke their eternal life.

Nope. Or Jesus' promise in John 10:28 cannot be true. But Jesus isn't a LIAR.

YES, everyone is in danger from FALSE DOCTRINE. Which is what "savage wolves" try to do.

Anyone can be drawn away from true doctrine. Those who believe salvation can be lost have rejected Jesus' promise, and as such, have been drawn away to false doctrine.

I've seen NO verses about falling from salvation. That is just made up.

OK. To fall from the faith, or wander from the faith isn't the same as falling from salvation. But that's your opinion. But a wrong one. Did Jesus LIE in John 10:28? Of course not. But you don't believe what He promised if you think salvation can be lost.

I then said this:
"v.14 says this seal is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption."

So, it seems that what God GUARANTEES can be forfeitable. Absolutely astounding!

Apparently you think that God goes back on His promises. Well, He doesn't.

In fact, it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie.
" God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged." Heb 6:18

Jesus is God. He promises that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Your response to Scripture shows your failure to fulfill 2 Tim 2:15. They demonstrate a failure to grasp the basics of spiritual growth, confession of sin, and the promise of eternal rewards on the basis of faithfulness and obedience.

I think I'm limited on time; I have given you many verses that you just must ignore, because you cannot continue with OSAS. I hope you will change and include all of what the Apostles wrote.

Ben johnson · Sep 24, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
Ron Gurley said: ↑
The NUMBER of VERSES + WEIGHT of them + IN CONTEXT + ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS of all Scripture fully support the true doctrine of " Eternal Security" aka "OSAS".

PLEASE: try to rebut my POST#313 above!!!
If one does not, the truth WINS OUT!

The attempt at rebuttal of my post failed. As shown in #340. It was your response that was refuted.

Let's try a shorter post. In 1Jn5:11-13, "he who has Jesus has eternal life (we may KNOW)".

In 2Jn1:7-9, anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God; he who abides, has the Father and the Son.

How is this not presenting "not-abiding" as a clear and present danger? How is there not ...MOVEMENT... between verses 8, and 9 (2Jn1)?

Ron Gurley · Sep 24, 2017

Refute all the Scripture in this discussion.

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

Ron Gurley · Sep 24, 2017

It was MY post #313 which supports OSAS / Eternal Security of the True Believer's Salvation.

Ben johnson · Sep 24, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
Refute all the Scripture in this discussion.

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

Ron, why don't you respond here, to verses cited?

Ben said:
Let's try a shorter post. In 1Jn5:11-13, "he who has Jesus has eternal life (we may KNOW)".

In 2Jn1:7-9, anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God; he who abides, has the Father and the Son.

How is this not presenting "not-abiding" as a clear and present danger? How is there not ...MOVEMENT... between verses 8, and 9 (2Jn1)?

The context of 2Jn1:7-9, is "watch yourselves against DECEIVERS".

What danger is there? Do you believe deceivers cannot endanger salvation in 1Jn2:26-28, in 2Pet3:17, in Col2:6-8, in 1Tim4:1?

What about the FLOCK, and even DISCIPLES in Acts20:26-28? Is the flock in danger from savage wolves, and disciples in danger from perverse men?

Yes, or no? It's easy to say "they're all refuted" -- but where is the refutation?

FreeGrace2 · Sep 24, 2017

I said this:
"Jesus very specifically taught eternal security. He said:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. Jn 10:28"

Ben johnson said:
Goodness, FG2 -- these posts aren't limited? I will reply to your post, but be warned -- your post was long, mine will be longer...

My post to you was in response to your loooooong post. But now, I might not finish responding to your long posts.

Do you think someone can have an understanding of specific verses, which allows dismissal of other verses?

By this, meaning what you've apparently done with Jesus' promise in John 10:28?

Of course one cannot have the proper understanding of verses when their view is in direct opposition to clear words of Jesus.

Meaning to ask in respect -- I gave you several verses which cannot fit "OSAS".

No, you didn't.

If your understanding of Jn10:26-28 is right, what will you do with the other verses?

I will understand that they cannot mean what you think they mean.

The Bible cannot be contradicted. Do you think it can be?

No ONE can FORCE you from His hand; we very much can remove ourselves by unbelief.

So, please direct me to the verse that says that we can remove ourselves by unbelief.

Again, if that WERE possible, then Jesus' promise in John 10:28 is totally meaningless and worse, a BIG , FAT LIE. Which idea I reject.

And THAT is the WHOLE ISSUE -- when is a person "saved", and what does that mean?

I believe what Paul told the jailer what he must do to be saved. His answer? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED. Clear enough for me.

In Matt25 Jesus separates the "sheep" (saved) from the "goats" (unsaved). What do the sheep have, that the goats do not?

Eternal life, naturally. What do you think they have that goats don't have?

In 1Jn5:11-13, he who HAS JESUS has eternal life. He who does not have Jesus does not have eternal life. Then -- 2Jn1:5-9 we must watch ourselves against deceivers that we not lose what we have wrought, but that we receive full reward; (BECAUSE!) anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings, has not God (no longer!) --- but he WHO abides has the Father and the Son!

If this passage teaches or even insinuates that one can lose salvation, then Jesus told us a HUGE WHOPPER in John 10:28.

I'm just amazed that a professing believer doesn't believe Jesus' promise.

In both cases, "present-active-participle" --- he who IS BELIEVING.

I've shown from Eph 1:13 that "having believed", a past tense action results in being sealed IN HIM with the Spirit, who is a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance for the day of redemption of God's possession.

How in the world can that not be eternal security?

What if we cease???

'
The Bible describes such a one as an apostate. But I still believe the promise Jesus made about those He gives eternal life. They shall never perish. Jn 10:28

And they ALL are "present-active-participle".

Please proceed to explain the significance of the present participle, because I'm not sure that you do understand it.

As another poster eloquently cited, "take care, BRETHREN, that there not be in any of you an unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God; but encourage one another, lest any one be hardened by deceitful sin. We are partners (metochos--Heb3:1, 3:14, 6:4, 12:8) in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance FIRM UNTIL THE END..." Heb3:12-14

This is referring to something Arminians (those who believe that salvation can be lost) don't have: firm assurance of our salvation. The writer is encouraging his audience to not be an Arminian.

Any of that unclear, FG2?

Nope. It's very clear that you don't believe what John 10:28 says.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 24, 2017

I said:
"That obviously means that the believer possesses eternal life WHEN they initially believe."

Ben johnson said:
No, it does not; it means "a believer possesses eternal life AS they possess Jesus"!

There is NO WAY to come to that conclusion from the verses. What is clear is that "whoever believes HAS (as in a current possession) eternal life. There is NOTHING bout "as they possess Jesus".

In fact, there aren't any verses about "possessing Jesus". This is just made up.

Can a believer cease to believe? What did we (you and I) just read in Heb3?

Yes. The Bible calls them apostates. But Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28 continues to be true.

IF we HOLD FAST firm until the end. Have you considered Deut30:11-20? It connects directly to Rom10:6-9; Rm10:6 cites Deut30:12, and Rm10:8 cites Deut30:14.

Why do you reject the promise of Jesus in John 10:28?

HOLD FAST that no one STEALS YOUR CROWN -- that's not "crown-of-life", Jm1:12? It is.

All crowns are rewards. Just google it and read a bit.

Ben johnson · Sep 24, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
It was MY post #313 which supports OSAS / Eternal Security of the True Believer's Salvation.

Ron, are you ever going to start answering the posted verses? If I "refute all of the Scriptures cited" --- rather, if I show they do not teach what you think --- will you be open?

Here's another "barrier". In 7-9, King James best renders the conditional:

"If we submit to God's discipline, (then) He treats us as sons."

Then it says, "we have become subject to His discipline" (past tense!), "but if we are without His discipline" (present tense!) "then we are NOT sons but are illegitimate" (have become!).

"We submitted to earthly fathers' discipline; shall we not therefore CONTINUE in submission to God, AND LIVE?"

How in the world can that fit "you-cannot-become-unborn/unsaved"?

Continue -- verse 15 "do not let a root of bitterness spring up ...that you fall short of God's grace".

And 25, "much less shall WE escape who turn away from God".

Overwhelmingly "OSNAS", isn't it?

Ron Gurley · Sep 24, 2017

The salvation from eternal spiritual separation from God offered by Jesus the God-Man:

God does not take back nor allow man to give back His SALVATION...PAST completed ACTION / (TENSE=AORIST!)

John 5:24 (all NASB) “Truly, truly, I (Jesus) say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but HAS PASSED out of death into life.

Ephesians 2:4-10
(by grace you HAVE BEEN saved),

Luke 19:1-10...[ Zaccheus Converted ]
9 And Jesus said to him,
“Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of Man "has come" to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Mark 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them,
“It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick;
I did not "come to call" the righteous, but sinners.”

John 3
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might "be saved" through Him.
18 He who believes in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he "has not believed" in the name of the ONLY begotten (not made unique) Son of God.

John 6
35 Jesus said to them,
“I am the bread of life;
he who COMES to Me WILL not hunger,
and he who BELIEVES in Me WILL never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have SEEN Me, and yet do not BELIEVE.
40 For this is the will of My Father,
that everyone who beholds the Son and BELIEVES in Him "WILL (is certain to) have "eternal life"",
and I Myself will raise him up "on the last day".”

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I "GIVE eternal life to them", and they will never perish;
and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who HAS GIVEN them to Me, is greater than all;
and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.” (IN SPIRITUAL ESSENCE AND NATURE!)

John 17:2-3 ...Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father about Jesus' followers
even as You gave Him authority over all flesh,
that to all whom You "have given" Him,
He MAY GIVE "eternal life".
This is "eternal life",
that they MAY KNOW You, the only true God, and
(KNOW) Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 1:12,14 (NIV)
Yet to all who "RECEIVED" him,
to those who "BELIEVED" in His name, (Jesus the Christ) He GAVE the right to become CHILDREN of God...

FreeGrace2 · Sep 24, 2017

I said:
"This speaks of spiritual growth. Not "how to maintain your salvation"."

Ben johnson said:
"Keep yourselves in God's love" is not "stay-saved"? How is it not?

It's NOT, because Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

btw, since salvation by by grace, meaning there is NOTHING we can do to effect our salvation, why do you now think that there IS something that we MUST DO to "stay saved"? That's the height of inconsistency.

Then you have three choices.
1. It's a story, NOT REALLY POSSIBLE.
2. The Prodigal was "fornicating/drunk/carousing/SAVED"
3. The prodigal was truly spiritually dead, but repented returned and was alive again.

#2 is correct. The point of the parable is fellowship with God the Father. The son needed to confess his sins and repent.

Which did Jesus mean?

[/QUOTE]Ahhh -- you hold "Antinomianism". Fornicating/drunk/carousing/SAVED.[/QUOTE]
No, I believe what Paul wrote about being under the "law of Christ" (Gal 6:2). I am not anti-law, as you wrongly assume.

What about 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21 ("those who DO these things SHALL NOT INHERIT")? What about 1Jn3:5-10? ("No one who practices sin knows Him")?

Since you don't believe in eternal rewards, why should I bother explaining that these 3 parallel passage are about not inheriting eternal rewards?

FreeGrace2 · Sep 24, 2017

Ben johnson said:
But they'll still waltz through Eternity's gates with all their sins? Do you believe that?

Now we're finally getting to the core of the Arminian mindset. They just can't stand the thought that someone will "get away with" their sins and enter heaven.

Well, to begin with, NO ONE will enter heaven with "all their sins". That's just a ridiculous thought. Don't you know that Jesus Christ died for all sins? That means all of them. That's another reason why salvation can't be lost. Jesus already paid the price for every sin. So there's no sin that He didn't die for. But apparently you're not aware of that fact. Again, a failure to fulfill 2 Tim 2:15.

See? You said it again --- "sinfully saved".

you've already noted that no one becomes sinless in this life. So, in effect, everyone, including yourself, is sinfully saved.

And again I ask you about 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10?

And, again, I've already told you.

Do you believe that?

This is what I believe:
1. Jesus' promise that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. Jn 10:28
2. Jesus' promise that whoever believes possesses eternal life. Jn 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47, 1 Jn 5:13
3. eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
4. the gifts of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
5. having believed, one is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which guarantees the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession. eph 1:13,14
6. Finally, I believe that you don't believe any of these points.

But you're not going to respond to 2Jn1:7-9.

How can you be comfortable with so many errors?

7 I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

v.7 refers to unbelievers. Those who have never believed.
v.8 is a direct reference to eternal rewards.
v.9 is about those who don't "abide" in Christ (meaning believing everything He says and not cherry-picking only the verses that you think fit your agenda) don't abide in His doctrine. One of which is eternal security.

So, believing that salvation can be lost means not abiding in Christ. Not believing what He promises.

I think I'm limited on time; I have given you many verses that you just must ignore, because you cannot continue with OSAS. I hope you will change and include all of what the Apostles wrote.

I've responded to EVERY verse you've provided.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 24, 2017

Ben johnson said:
Let's try a shorter post. In 1Jn5:11-13, "he who has Jesus has eternal life (we may KNOW)".

Let's try John 10:28 and Jesus' promise to those He gives eternal life; they shall never perish.

In 2Jn1:7-9, anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God; he who abides, has the Father and the Son.

Already explained in previous post.

BCsenior · Oct 6, 2017

To gain the truth about this topic --
it is absolutely necessary to reconcile ALL of the NT passages:
RECONCILE the so-called OSAS verses ...with... the anti-OSAS verses!

Choosing one set of verses while ignoring the other set is just ridiculous.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 7, 2017

BCsenior said:
To gain the truth about this topic --
it is absolutely necessary to reconcile ALL of the NT passages:
RECONCILE the so-called OSAS verses ...with... the anti-OSAS verses!

Choosing one set of verses while ignoring the other set is just ridiculous.

Does truth contradict itself? Never.

This seems to be a suggestion that both "sets" of verses are true.

In fact, one set refutes the other seet.

BCsenior · Oct 8, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
Does truth contradict itself? Never.
This seems to be a suggestion that both "sets" of verses are true.
In fact, one set refutes the other seet.

The problem is mainly with the word "believe".
There is NO English word that incorporates:
true heart BELIEF (as opposed to intellectual belief)
true deep FAITH
real solid TRUST
... let alone OBEDIENCE.
We won't talk about obedience, lest thou has a heart attack!

The correct understanding of what is meant by "believe" solves the whole dilemna.
Because the warnings are for those elect who are NOT following the above list.
Naturally, the warnings are NOT for the non-elect for that would be a waste of time.

BCsenior · Oct 8, 2017

The problem is mainly with the word "believe".
There is NO English word that incorporates:
true heart BELIEF (as opposed to intellectual belief)
true deep FAITH
real solid TRUST
... let alone OBEDIENCE.
We won't talk about obedience, lest thou has a heart attack!

The correct understanding of what is meant by "believe" solves the whole dilemna.
Because the warnings are for those elect who are NOT following the above list.
Naturally, the warnings are NOT for the non-elect for that would be a waste of time.

IMO, the warnings are mostly to HELP the elect get and stay on the narrow path.
God moves heaven and earth to get His elect into heaven.
But, it's possible for an elect to refuse to co-operate!

Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

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