Eternal Torment

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Nanopants

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Since we may not be allowed to discuss any alternatives to this doctrine, I am extending this opportunity for its proponents to stand up and defend it. I'll express my doubts and if you can convince me that I am in the wrong then I'll change my mind.

So for starters, God is just. Can man subject anyone to eternal torment? If not then the punishment of eternal torment exceeds anything man can do to others, the punishment cannot fit the crime, and so we must either redefine our concept justice or conclude that God is not truly just.

I find both of these alternatives to be a potential source of great injustice, and offensive to my belief in a just and merciful God.
 

ChristianT

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For me, the thing is this doctrine is best seen through the lens of the Orthodox Church. It is still eternal torment that is the majority view, and an orthodox one, but it isn't God that causes the torment, nor is it dogmatically eternal. Some ECFs e.g. Gregory of Nyssa interpreted a sort of "apokatastasis," or redemption of even the people in hell, through purification by fire. However, the more general and all-encompassing understanding of hell and the eternal torment of Orthodoxy is that being in the engulfing glory of God is like torment to those who reject Him, or are driven by unholy passions, etc.

Like I said, some Orthodox believe the tormented ones aren't necessarily foolish enough to reject God's love forever, nor that God stops being merciful at some or any moment. Others believe that God is merciful, but those who despise God and are driven by passions would rather those passions and hate than God's love for all eternity. Thus, the ultimate answer is that the torment is brought about by the people's own will-in-opposition-to-God.
 
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That's actually a lot like my own view. I see God as being love and a consuming fire, not as being two different things, but love being the same as a consuming fire. Someone even pointed me to the writings of one of your own theologians who said the same (although, regretfully I can't remember his name currently).

In any case I still believe God is able to destroy body and soul in hell, and that not all are saved, unfortunately, but if not it is according to their own rejection of God and salvation.
 
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supersoldier71

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"But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?"

I think a valid question is: where do you derive your sense of justice? Can anything be just apart from God. Can anything be "right" apart from what the three-times-Holy God declares to be so? The Bible is FILLED with actions, that if taken by men would be heinous---but when God does them, they are good. Is the thing good,and so God does it, or is it good because He says it's good?

So, to my mind,if God says eternal torment, there can be no argument from anyone, since God IS good, and what He declares is, by virtue of being the will of God, must BE good.
 
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concretecamper

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Since we may not be allowed to discuss any alternatives to this doctrine, I am extending this opportunity for its proponents to stand up and defend it. I'll express my doubts and if you can convince me that I am in the wrong then I'll change my mind.

So for starters, God is just. Can man subject anyone to eternal torment? If not then the punishment of eternal torment exceeds anything man can do to others, the punishment cannot fit the crime, and so we must either redefine our concept justice or conclude that God is not truly just.

I find both of these alternatives to be a potential source of great injustice, and offensive to my belief in a just and merciful God.

Justice may be more what God allows us to do to ourselves rather than what He does to us.
 
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Nanopants

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"But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?"

I think a valid question is: where do you derive your sense of justice? Can anything be just apart from God. Can anything be "right" apart from what the three-times-Holy God declares to be so? The Bible is FILLED with actions, that if taken by men would be heinous---but when God does them, they are good. Is the thing good,and so God does it, or is it good because He says it's good?

So, to my mind,if God says eternal torment, there can be no argument from anyone, since God IS good, and what He declares is, by virtue of being the will of God, must BE good.

I've beaten this horse a hundred times. I'm not going redefine justice or address it now.
 
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Nanopants

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Justice may be more what God allows us to do to ourselves rather than what He does to us.

Possibly, though I do believe we will reap what we sow, and that the measure we use will be measured back to us, since God is just.

Judas is called "son of perdition," roughly meaning "son of destruction." I do not see "son of eternal torment" mentioned here.
 
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fhansen

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Since we may not be allowed to discuss any alternatives to this doctrine, I am extending this opportunity for its proponents to stand up and defend it. I'll express my doubts and if you can convince me that I am in the wrong then I'll change my mind.

So for starters, God is just. Can man subject anyone to eternal torment? If not then the punishment of eternal torment exceeds anything man can do to others, the punishment cannot fit the crime, and so we must either redefine our concept justice or conclude that God is not truly just.

I find both of these alternatives to be a potential source of great injustice, and offensive to my belief in a just and merciful God.
Hell is separation from God, the source of all goodness, light, love, peace, and happiness-for those who prefer themselves to that, to Him. We already know the evil of that separation here, in our exile, to one degree or another. We're hungry for God, without necessarily knowing what the hunger consists of, where it comes from. Hell is trying to satiate that hunger, apart from God.
 
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^Certainly there is an outer darkness, but I'm not convinced that outer darkness is itself hellfire.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...'
-Mat 25:41

What is eternal? God, and He is a consuming fire. To put that another way, love burns at the cold, hard-heartedness of those who reject love and treat one another in a merciless, unjust manner.
 
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Your particular, and personally adopted, notions of justice are yours, not Gods. Trying to hold God accountable to what you have decided justice to be makes you greater then God, and you, mortal man, are not greater then God. This is what Job learned.

It is a hard pill at first to swallow, to learn that God has his own standard, not one we can create, that he has decided to adhere to. Whatever God decides is justice, is justice, as he is the one who created it, not us.
 
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Your particular, and personally adopted, notions of justice are yours, not Gods. Trying to hold God accountable to what you have decided justice to be makes you greater then God, and you, mortal man, are not greater then God. This is what Job learned.

It is a hard pill at first to swallow, to learn that God has his own standard, not one we can create, that he has decided to adhere to. Whatever God decides is justice, is justice, as he is the one who created it, not us.


Excuse me?

For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
-Mat 7:2

Just who do you presume to be correcting?
 
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MoreCoffee

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Since we may not be allowed to discuss any alternatives to this doctrine, I am extending this opportunity for its proponents to stand up and defend it. I'll express my doubts and if you can convince me that I am in the wrong then I'll change my mind.

So for starters, God is just. Can man subject anyone to eternal torment? If not then the punishment of eternal torment exceeds anything man can do to others, the punishment cannot fit the crime, and so we must either redefine our concept justice or conclude that God is not truly just.

I find both of these alternatives to be a potential source of great injustice, and offensive to my belief in a just and merciful God.

Do you think Jesus was squeamish about mentioning torments in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus?
Luke 16:22-23 KJV 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And if Jesus mentioned it ought those who claim the name "Christian" (thus indicating that they are followers of Jesus Christ) to be squeamish about mentioning torment?
 
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Setyoufree

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The Bible is FILLED with actions, that if taken by men would be heinous---but when God does them, they are good.

Ah, but you misunderstand God. God is love and love fulfills the law. Since God is in harmony with His law then God cannot murder or kill.

So, to my mind, if God says eternal torment, there can be no argument from anyone.....

Wow....That amazes me. IF God sins, it's okay, but if I sin, well it's evil.

John 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogue;http://www.biblestudytools.com/john/16.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-3 in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.http://www.biblestudytools.com/john/16.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-4 (why?)

3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.http://www.biblestudytools.com/john/16.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-5
 
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Do you think Jesus was squeamish about mentioning torments in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus?
Luke 16:22-23 KJV 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And if Jesus mentioned it ought those who claim the name "Christian" (thus indicating that they are followers of Jesus Christ) to be squeamish about mentioning torment?

^No I don't. Torment isn't my issue. If the unjust carry out unmerciful cruelties, I expect them to receive some measure of justice at the hand of God, since He will be merciful to the merciful and avenges innocent blood. If not, then I'm faced with the same conundrum I mentioned earlier, in that I would have to redefine justice or conclude that God is not just.

Eternal torment appears to be equally erroneous to me.
 
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MoreCoffee

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^No I don't. Torment isn't my issue. If the unjust carry out unmerciful cruelties, I expect them to receive some measure of justice at the hand of God, since He will be merciful to the merciful and avenges innocent blood. If not, then I'm faced with the same conundrum I mentioned earlier, in that I would have to redefine justice or conclude that God is not just.

Eternal torment appears to be equally erroneous to me.

The thing is, Jesus mentions endless punishment doesn't he?
Mark 9:42-48 KJV 42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
 
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The thing is, Jesus mentions endless punishment doesn't he?
Mark 9:42-48 KJV 42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Well, then my response is that the fire may not be quenched, because God is the consuming fire.

As for "their worm dieth not," that seems a bit trickier to interpret.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Well, then my response is that the fire may not be quenched, because God is the consuming fire.

As for "their worm dieth not," that seems a bit trickier to interpret.

Yes, it is hard to find ways to make eternal torment disappear without doing a lot of fancy interpretive work on what Jesus says.
 
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Here is the source to provide context (Isa 66)

Thus says the LORD:

“Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
Where is the house that you will build Me?
And where is the place of My rest?
For all those things My hand has made,
And all those things exist,”
Says the LORD.
“But on this one will I look:
On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit,
And who trembles at My word.
He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol.
Just as they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
So will I choose their delusions,
And bring their fears on them;
Because, when I called, no one answered,
When I spoke they did not hear;
But they did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.”
Hear the word of the LORD,
You who tremble at His word:
“Your brethren who hated you,
Who cast you out for My name’s sake, said,
‘Let the LORD be glorified,
That we may see your joy.’
But they shall be ashamed.”
The sound of noise from the city!
A voice from the temple!
The voice of the LORD,
Who fully repays His enemies!
Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.
Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery?” says the LORD.
“Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb?” says your God.
“Rejoice with Jerusalem,
And be glad with her, all you who love her;
Rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn for her;
That you may feed and be satisfied
With the consolation of her bosom,
That you may drink deeply and be delighted
With the abundance of her glory.”
For thus says the LORD:
“Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river,
And the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream.
Then you shall feed;
On her sides shall you be carried,
And be dandled on her knees.
As one whom his mother comforts,
So I will comfort you;
And you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.”
When you see this, your heart shall rejoice,
And your bones shall flourish like grass;
The hand of the LORD shall be known to His servants,
And His indignation to His enemies.
For behold, the LORD will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
For by fire and by His sword
The LORD will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the LORD shall be many.
“Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the LORD.
“For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory.
I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles.
Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the LORD, “as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,” says the LORD.
“For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the LORD,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.
“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.

They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
 
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