Eternal Torment

[seeingeyes]

To put this another way, nothing God created is evil. It really is all good, and was made for Him, because this place is supposed to be God's own habitat, within us including everything He made us to do.

The same must be true for hell, then. Whatever hell is or isn't must fit with who our God is.

God bless

 

[Nanopants]

The same must be true for hell, then. Whatever hell is or isn't must fit with who our God is.

God bless

Yeah I agree ;]

 

[Gnarwhal]

For me, the thing is this doctrine is best seen through the lens of the Orthodox Church. It is still eternal torment that is the majority view, and an orthodox one, but it isn't God that causes the torment, nor is it dogmatically eternal. Some ECFs e.g. Gregory of Nyssa interpreted a sort of "apokatastasis," or redemption of even the people in hell, through purification by fire. However, the more general and all-encompassing understanding of hell and the eternal torment of Orthodoxy is that being in the engulfing glory of God is like torment to those who reject Him, or are driven by unholy passions, etc.

Like I said, some Orthodox believe the tormented ones aren't necessarily foolish enough to reject God's love forever, nor that God stops being merciful at some or any moment. Others believe that God is merciful, but those who despise God and are driven by passions would rather those passions and hate than God's love for all eternity. Thus, the ultimate answer is that the torment is brought about by the people's own will-in-opposition-to-God.

This view makes the most sense to me, since aspects of the faith have generally been communicated in terms we would understand - I think this concept of hell expresses a very real aspect of the human condition. Sometimes we encounter people we dislike, maybe even hate (God forbid), and if we're forced to be in their presence that is generally an excruciating experience if we don't relent and let go of our hatred for that person.

If a friend invited me to tag along to a birthday party and it turned out to be for my arch nemesis (assuming I had one), I would probably be angry, bitter and unhappy the entire time I was there, all the while fueling my hatred of that person even more. However, if I relinquished that hatred, it's likely that I would end up enjoying the party and celebrating that person.

That might be a flimsy analogy, but I think it kind of makes sense.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If we go beyond what is written in the scriptures on this question then we are in danger of making speculation our guiding principle. Best not do that.

When Jesus told the parable of the rich man and Lazarus he used graphic language depicting a place of torment with flames and a place of peace and comfort. The rich man's specific crimes are not listed for us, but his indifference toward the beggar at his gate is presumed in Jesus' story, is seen in the place of torments and flame. That is a warning even if it is not a full theological explanation of the nature of hell and the torments of that place.

Jesus also referred to "weeping and gnashing of teeth" for the wicked in the final state. He did so several times. Those words too are a warning even if they do not spell out a full theology of hell and torment.

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Finally the duration of hell is also mentioned by Jesus

Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Timothew]

If we can't discuss the fate of the unrepentant outside of "Unorthodox Theology", why is this thread even here? Go to UT.

 

[Achilles6129]

Modern christianity has disliked the doctrine of eternal torment for awhile now and has been actively seeking a way out of the plain and very graphic statements given in Scripture about hell. I think the reason for this is obvious - if they accept the statements in Scripture about hell they would have to redefine their entire idea of God and also redefine their entire concept of justice (as Nanopants mentioned in an earlier post).

 

[shturt678s]

If we go beyond what is written in the scriptures on this question then we are in danger of making speculation our guiding principle. Best not do that.

When Jesus told the parable of the rich man and Lazarus he used graphic language depicting a place of torment with flames and a place of peace and comfort. The rich man's specific crimes are not listed for us, but his indifference toward the beggar at his gate is presumed in Jesus' story, is seen in the place of torments and flame. That is a warning even if it is not a full theological explanation of the nature of hell and the torments of that place.

Jesus also referred to "weeping and gnashing of teeth" for the wicked in the final state. He did so several times. Those words too are a warning even if they do not spell out a full theology of hell and torment.

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Finally the duration of hell is also mentioned by Jesus

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I strongly feel the duration of hell, ie, forever and ever, also mentions levels of forever torment (Lk.12:45-48).

I was always partial to: he will be cut in two (IISam.12:31; IChron.20:3) with a horrible saw, and thus his portion placed with the faithless, ie, he will have the same portion the unbelievers have. I wonder if this warning applies more to Ministers? Just a head's up in case your one of them?

Just ol' Jack that already put in the upper level of hell, ie, positions closed, due to born into a full blown apostasy where most feel it's all grace and mercy.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

If we can't discuss the fate of the unrepentant outside of "Unorthodox Theology", why is this thread even here? Go to UT.

It pushes the rules to the limits.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I strongly feel the duration of hell, ie, forever and ever, also mentions levels of forever torment (Lk.12:45-48).

I was always partial to: he will be cut in two (IISam.12:31; IChron.20:3) with a horrible saw, and thus his portion placed with the faithless, ie, he will have the same portion the unbelievers have. I wonder if this warning applies more to Ministers? Just a head's up in case your one of them?

Just ol' Jack that already put in the upper level of hell, ie, positions closed, due to born into a full blown apostasy where most feel it's all grace and mercy.

Hugs to you my brother, shturt678s, and I hope you will see me in heaven, God willing.

 

[Timothew]

Modern christianity has disliked the doctrine of eternal torment for awhile now and has been actively seeking a way out of the plain and very graphic statements given in Scripture about hell. I think the reason for this is obvious - if they accept the statements in Scripture about hell they would have to redefine their entire idea of God and also redefine their entire concept of justice (as Nanopants mentioned in an earlier post).

That has not been my experience with Modern Christianity. It seems that most of Christianity appears to like the doctrine of eternal torment in Hell and look for ways out of the plain teaching given in Scripture about the wages of sin.

Where is the "plain and very graphic statement" in Scripture that says that sinners go to hell when they die where they are alive in torment forever? I can't find that verse in scripture. But I took a yellow marker and highlighted the verse that says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." I won't say what the wages of sin are, because I believe that might be against the rules on CF, however I will say that I believe what the Bible says.

 

[shturt678s]

Hugs to you my brother, shturt678s, and I hope you will see me in heaven, God willing.

It pushes God's grace and mercy to His limits, however at least we have a crack at it.

Jack

 

[shturt678s]

That has not been my experience with Modern Christianity. It seems that most of Christianity appears to like the doctrine of eternal torment in Hell and look for ways out of the plain teaching given in Scripture about the wages of sin.

Where is the "plain and very graphic statement" in Scripture that says that sinners go to hell when they die where they are alive in torment forever? I can't find that verse in scripture. But I took a yellow marker and highlighted the verse that says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." I won't say what the wages of sin are, because I believe that might be against the rules on CF, however I will say that I believe what the Bible says.

Always have appreciated you and your words sir. The translated "Bibles" say anything you or others want them to say, ie, including me by their interpretive nature - includng Scholars of post-1930 for sure - Hebrew, Greek and the whole, collectively. Having said this, ie, my opinion of Rom.6:23:

A walk in the park The death which the sin brought in, death in its finality, forever ("eternal" from the ancient's view - "forever" from our limited English view), and irrevocable separation from God. Immediately after each one's passing that have met the Truth, and rejected for whatever reasons.

Kind of a long time,

Jack

 

[Hammster]

MOD HAT ON

Closed for review.
MOD HAT OFF
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[Achilles6129]

That has not been my experience with Modern Christianity. It seems that most of Christianity appears to like the doctrine of eternal torment in Hell and look for ways out of the plain teaching given in Scripture about the wages of sin.

It is interesting how people on two sides of the fence always see the grass as being "greener on the other side."

Where is the "plain and very graphic statement" in Scripture that says that sinners go to hell when they die where they are alive in torment forever? I can't find that verse in scripture.

"9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and [h]whoever receives the mark of his name.”" Rev. 14:9-11 (NASB)

But I took a yellow marker and highlighted the verse that says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." I won't say what the wages of sin are, because I believe that might be against the rules on CF, however I will say that I believe what the Bible says.

I didn't make up the rules for CF.