There IS hell, and the lost are kept there in wait of the judgement. But all that can't enter into God's Holy Kingdom, is destroyed out of existence by fire, that includes hell and all who are in it. How long they must wait, no one knows. That is the only period of suffering.I was just thinking the same thing.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand.
I'd like to ask a question. If there is no hell, and no eternal suffering to fear, why do we need a savior? Gospel can't just be the only thing preached. Without gospel, we are condemned by the law, but without the law we have no need for the gospel.
There IS hell, and the lost are kept there in wait of the judgement. But all that can't enter into God's Holy Kingdom, is destroyed out of existence by fire, that includes hell and all who are in it. How long they must wait, no one knows. That is the only period of suffering.
Can names be removed from the Eternal Book of Life?but Jesus says all are released from hell to be judged by their works Rev 20:13 [a first chance at salvation for many, second for some, after resurrection, freed from sin by death -Rom 6:7]
Also the mercy of God endures, so none can be 'lost' to the good shepherd, and indeed Jesus promises that all will accept him [and this be saved eventually] :-
Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
God could not be god of all men if He failed to convince all eventually to Love and so be happy in life...
The wages of sin is death. According to the bible, Jesus Christ saves us from death.I was just thinking the same thing.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand.
I'd like to ask a question. If there is no hell, and no eternal suffering to fear, why do we need a savior? Gospel can't just be the only thing preached. Without gospel, we are condemned by the law, but without the law we have no need for the gospel.
The wages of sin is death. According to the bible, Jesus Christ saves us from death.
I could ask the same thing to you. If there is really no death, because everyone has eternal life in one place or another, why do we need a savior to give us eternal life?
I was just thinking the same thing.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand.
I'd like to ask a question. If there is no hell, and no eternal suffering to fear, why do we need a savior? Gospel can't just be the only thing preached. Without gospel, we are condemned by the law, but without the law we have no need for the gospel.
Excellent question. What are we saved from?
God is not about fear, but about Love although some only come to understanding of Love through the stage of first fearing the power of God before they understand God through Love and in spirit baptism to know all Truth for God direct... John 18:13 , Heb 8:8-12And very pertinent in terms of evangelism, too. If someone has no fear of hell (because they don't believe in hell), then how can they be reached with the gospel if the gospel is merely the way to get out of hell? So we must scare the hell into them before we scare the hell out of them.
Love is simply a vastly better way to live... one does not need fear to appreciate the wonderful nature of a Loving life, in fact perfect Love casts out all fear ... your premise is simply completely wrong...Our message to the world, then, must be hell first, Jesus second. Because without hell, Jesus is irrelevant at best.
Yes, yes, you need to be saved from annihilation. This has already been covered. Your extremely over-simplified point of view is virtually impossible for anyone to get confused about. If only you would listen to the point of view of the majority you might be able to deduce what their obvious responses would be, the way that we can so easily predict what your responses will be.The wages of sin is death. According to the bible, Jesus Christ saves us from death.
This is only a question for you because you are so trapped by your own personal definitions of life and death that you can't even imagin any other point of view. It is one thing to understand another person's point of view while disagreeing with it, but it is quite something else to be so self-absorbed that you can't even fathom the majority point of view. You would think that you've encountered it often enough to have at least some idea of what the obvious response will be.I could ask the same thing to you. If there is really no death, because everyone has eternal life in one place or another, why do we need a savior to give us eternal life?
The lake of fire, the true hell, is never destroyed. Hades use to be improperly translated as hell, but there is no hellfire in Hades. It is the lake of fire that is hellfire. And the Bible clearly states that at least three beings are never destroyed in the lake of fire, but are trapped there eternally, so at very best for your argument not all are destroyed in the lake of fire (Rev 20:10). That of course assumes that the reference to "the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever" doesn't really mean torment for ever and ever the way it clearly says.But all that can't enter into God's Holy Kingdom, is destroyed out of existence by fire, that includes hell and all who are in it.
Hades is not hell. The lake of fire, Gehenna, is hell. Rev 20:13 says that those awakened from Hades and death will be judged. You seem to be completely ignoring that part of Rev 20:13. Following the judgement of Rev 20:13 some will receive eternal life and others will be sent to Gehenna.the spirit cannot die because it is of God, so indeed the essence of a man cannot die and all will be resurrected from hell and death [Rev 20:13] by means of their spirit
Yes, that was the question. Why didn't you answer it instead of exclusively focusing on attacking the orthodox point of view? That is not an answer to the question, that is just arguing past someone, much like the way democrats and republicans only argue past each other and never engage in a real dialog anymore.Unless we are saved from something else...
Revelation 20:10 (KJ21)The lake of fire, the true hell, is never destroyed. Hades use to be improperly translated as hell, but there is no hellfire in Hades. It is the lake of fire that is hellfire. And the Bible clearly states that at least three beings are never destroyed in the lake of fire, but are trapped there eternally, so at very best for your argument not all are destroyed in the lake of fire (Rev 20:10). That of course assumes that the reference to "the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever" doesn't really mean torment for ever and ever the way it clearly says.
That says nothing about the "lake of fire" or the "outer darkness" (which are probably the same thing). Entities that are there will not praise Christ at the time of Rev 5:13.Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
This point of view is clearly contradicted by Matthew 12:31-32, where Jesus speaks of those who can never be forgiven.God could not be god of all men if He failed to convince all eventually to Love and so be happy in life...
Because I just go by what the bible says and not pagan-greek-spiritism-nonsense.Yes, yes, you need to be saved from annihilation. This has already been covered. Your extremely over-simplified point of view is virtually impossible for anyone to get confused about. If only you would listen to the point of view of the majority you might be able to deduce what their obvious responses would be, the way that we can so easily predict what your responses will be.
This is only a question for you because you are so trapped by your own personal definitions of life and death that you can't even imagin any other point of view. It is one thing to understand another person's point of view while disagreeing with it, but it is quite something else to be so self-absorbed that you can't even fathom the majority point of view. You would think that you've encountered it often enough to have at least some idea of what the obvious response will be.
No one besides yourself and other annihilationists would refer to existence as a disembodied spirit as being life. Why is it so hard for you to fathom that the vast majority of people would never consider that to be any kind of life?
So I take that you think that being totally ignorant about our point of view is somehow good for the chances of having a dialog with us? How do you think that you can get through to people without having a clue what they think? That is a guaranteed way of never convincing anyone of anything. Have you ever in your life succeeded in changing anyone's mind about anything?Because I just go by what the bible says and not pagan-greek-spiritism-nonsense.
I underetand the hellist view. I used to hold it. I rejected it because it is unbiblical.So I take that you think that being totally ignorant about our point of view is somehow good for the chances of having a dialog with us? How do you think that you can get through to people without having a clue what they think? That is a guaranteed way of never convincing anyone of anything. Have you ever in your life succeeded in changing anyone's mind about anything?
If that is true then why do you ask a question that demonstrates no ability to relate to how the orthodox view their own beliefs?I underetand the hellist view. I used to hold it. I rejected it because it is unbiblical.
The orthodox point of view is not one in which everyone has eternal life because disembodied spirits are not alive.If there is really no death, because everyone has eternal life in one place or another, why do we need a savior to give us eternal life?
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."If that is true then why do you ask a question that demonstrates no ability to relate to how the orthodox view their own beliefs?
Here is your question again:
The orthodox point of view is not one in which everyone has eternal life because disembodied spirits are not alive.
Why is that so hard for you to understand? It is extremely simple and straight forward. You obviously have a mental block on the issue. Disagreeing with the above is fine, but distorting it to falsely portray how the orthodox view their own beliefs is not, and clearly demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of the point of view you are arguing against. You are never going to convince anyone of anything by distorting and slaughtering their point of view. Can you think of anyone who has ever been convinced by a strawman argument?
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