Eternal torment is not a Bible doctrine (2)

[strangertoo]

That says nothing about the "lake of fire" or the "outer darkness" (which are probably the same thing). Entities that are there will not praise Christ at the time of Rev 5:13.

You have ignored my points which you cannot answer and brought up this red herring... that is not sound method of discussion... you will not learn from scripture that way...

the 'lake of fire' is simply the place of final baptism of fire after death is denied those finally ashamed of their sin after two lives of sin, Satan included ... there are three baptisms to salvation :-

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

by the end the only ones who can trial the Love of those who have been wicked in sinning against mankind in two whole lives without repentance , are themselves ... God's Plan is simply to remove the 'easy prey' from evil men first, and then they suffer each others' evil sin and see the point about Love by suffering what they caused others to suffer, poetic justice saves them from their convictions of sin... God's mercy endures to teh end of time, does not end , cannot end, as foolish sinner religionists claim it does against scripture [which states over a hundred times that God's mercy endures ...

This point of view is clearly contradicted by Matthew 12:31-32, where Jesus speaks of those who can never be forgiven.

ye do greatly err , not knowing the whole scripture, not knowing God for God is Love , else you would have found out men can have up to three lives to learn to Love, and God and Jesus confirm three is all it takes... Jesus is not contradicting himself here, just explaining what is beyond the second life of the most wicked of men...

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:16 God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

... And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come...

those who refuse spirit baptism by speaking against the very spirit of god, unabvle to listen when God baptises all flesh in the kingdom come [Joel 2:28] will indeed have to learn the harder way by trying their way of sin in the 'lake of fire' , but only to find it is unbearable to suffer all the sins of others rather than just being the one doing the sinning ...

Psalms 10:2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

there can be no forgiveness in their first two lives of sin , but they will retract their rejection of the Truth given them by God in the lake of fire and sue for enduring mercy of God ... it is that we know this because all creation will accept Jesus eventually as Jesus states all will :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

denying the holy spirit of God when He talks to one is most problematic for a man because the kingdom is sealed, no-one can enter whilst they have not accepted spirit baptism to know the Truth of Love of God ...
thus this sin is the one that takes longest to resolve, but God is Love of all, none can be left indefinitely in outer darkness of denial of Love that fulfils once accepted FREELY [for Love cannot be forced on anyone, all must re-learn to be Loving after the world teaches them to be unloving]

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

... baptism of 'fire' is simply trial of Love in tribulations... the wicked have their baptism of fire after two lives of conflict within through sin, in the lake of fire where death [suiciide for shame of sin, revealed for what it is by poetic justice of God, is denied ] :-

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

the first two deaths though bring the opportunity of salvation to billions before the lake of fire resolves sin for the remainder, since death is wages of sin only because it frees men from sin to be resurrected [Rom 6:7] , otherwise men become servants of sin and find it impossible to free themselves , to choose Love freely ...

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

one cannot know God as a sinner, so those who refuse to stop sinning at water baptism will die to free them from sin at the second resurrection , but sin in the kingdom come after baptisnm of all flesh to receive the Truth persnally, individually, from God Himself equally necessitates death to free one from sin again, a second death, but then one must learn the nhard way by trying to live with the most evil of men , finding out sin doesn't suit anyone in the lake of fire, God's final trial...

 

[WillieH]

No, so say everyone who communicates. It's a pretty basic concept. If I don't understand your message, your message becomes useless.



I don't use extensive color in my posts. I have one color for my posts. My signature has a few extra colors, but it's my signature and it's static.

Nice try though. I will ask...what was your purpose in writing color in all caps, green and a larger size font?

FIRST --- Hmmm.... so it is okay for YOU to use "color" where YOU might choose to, but criticize my uses of it? = Hypocrisy.


That is like demanding that a CAR THIEF be prosecuted for STEALING, as you SHOPLIFT a loaf of BREAD, and make some toast with it. Maintaining that His effort is "STEALING", and yours is merely, "SHOPLIFTING".


If you were EXCLUSIVELY using UNCOLORIZED text, you would affort yourself room to complain (even though it is an unREASONable complaint).


But since you use COLOR, you really are hypocritical, in complaining about the use of it by others, just because you might limit yours in one place (your messaging) and use it otherwise elsewhere (in your "sig").


SECOND --- I was just calling you on your use of COLOR, that is all. I only raised the font, one size... so lets not exaggerate about that too.



PEACE... ...willieH

 

[Timothew]

np

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi PW...

I have LM on ignore... but in your quote of his words:

Originally Posted by LutheranMafia

This is a classic case of a messiah complex. He equates himself as being on the same level as Christ.
​

You have agreed with him:

I was just thinking the same thing.

Which only amounts to gossip. Backbiting is a common thing amongst many, and only serves to add coals of judgment unto those who participate IN it.


In conclusion, ...it does not matter to me, what YOU or "LutheranMafia" think of me. That you voice your slanderings publicly only shows the spiritual "level" you 2 have "accomplished". Makes me so very sad for you.


GOD certainly knows my humility where HE and HIS SON are concerned, so any amount of backbiting which is done by you and LM, ...won't change that an iota.


I do not at all think of myself as equal to JESUS CHRIST... He is my LORD... and YHVH is my God. I am here because of them... and lay all that I am, as well as all that I am not, before both in humility to them both.


However, ...I do call myself a child (son) of the Most High, for YHVH God has called all men that -- Psalm 82:6 -- and I would like to remind you that this text is the PRIMARY quote which JESUS made to the Pharisees, which made them wish to KILL Him, consorting (as do you and LM against me), ...against Him -- John 10:34-39

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

I'd like to ask a question. If there is no hell, and no eternal suffering to fear, why do we need a savior?

FIRST --- Name ONE TEXT that notes we are --- "saved from HELL"... ...and that JESUS died "to SAVE us from HELL"...


SECOND--- CHRIST did not DIE to save men from "HELL"... Here is why He died -- Rom 5:8 -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- John 3:17 -- Luke 19:10


THIRD --- And, ..."FEAR", is that which LOVE, ...CASTS OUT -- 1 John 4:18 -- LOVE does not EVER promote FEAR in any way.

Gospel can't just be the only thing preached. Without gospel, we are condemned by the law, but without the law we have no need for the gospel.

FIRST --- now you EMBELLISH the "great commission" -- Matt 28:19 -- Would you please provide us a BIBLICAL text which notes that we are to "PREACH" anything other than the GOSPEL?




CHRIST did not command His followers to go and teach ANYTHING other than the GOSPEL... which is the:


GOSPEL of PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- given of the,


GOD of PEACE -- Rom 15:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- 1 Thess 5:23 -- 2 Thess 3:16 -- Heb 7:2 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 Cor 14:33 -- spoken unto men by the,


SON of PEACE -- Luke 10:6



SECOND --- What "PEACE" is found in "HELL", or in the teaching of "HELL", PW?



THIRD --- The "LAW" is over (concerning judgment and payment for SIN) -- Col 2:14 -- Matt 5:38-48 -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- Isaiah 50:1 -- We are under GRACE. This does not give one license to SIN, for whatever a man SOWS, he WILL REAP -- Gal 6:8 -- what do you think CANCER, AIDS, MS, DIVORCE, WAR, etc. are? A warm-up for WORSE? -- Oh yeah, I guess that IS what you "think"!


We are COMMISSIONED to preach the MINISTRY of RECONCILIATION (of all things) -- 2 Cor 5:16-19 -- Col 1:20 -- which is (the GOSPEL) SALVATION by GRACE which much MORE EXCEEDS any and ALL SIN (in any amount, in any degree) -- Rom 5:20





PEACE... ...willieH

 

[LutheranMafia]

That says nothing about the "lake of fire" or the "outer darkness" (which are probably the same thing). Entities that are there will not praise Christ at the time of Rev 5:13.

You have ignored my points which you cannot answer and brought up this red herring... that is not sound method of discussion... you will not learn from scripture that way...

What were all these points I supposedly missed? There were only four lines total in your original post and two of them were about Rev 20:13, which is what I addressed. In one of the four lines you quoted Ecc 12:7, why I don't know, it seemed completely non-sequiter to me. I didn't quote the first line of your post but it is clearly contradicted by Matthew 12:31-32, as well as many other verses such as Matthew 5:22, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 10:28, Matthew 13:30, Matthew 23:15 & 33, Matthew 25:46, Mark 3:28-29, Mark 16:16, Mark 12:40, Luke 12:10, Luke 20:47, John 3:36, John 5:29, James 4:12, Hebrews 10:39, Romans 3:8, Romans 13:2, Galatians 5:21, Galatians 6:8, 1 Corinthians 11:29, 2 Peter 2:3, Daniel 12:2 and all of Jude, to name a few verses.

the 'lake of fire' is simply the place of final baptism of fire after death is denied those finally ashamed of their sin after two lives of sin, Satan included ... there are three baptisms to salvation :-

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

by the end the only ones who can trial the Love of those who have been wicked in sinning against mankind in two whole lives without repentance , are themselves ... God's Plan is simply to remove the 'easy prey' from evil men first, and then they suffer each others' evil sin and see the point about Love by suffering what they caused others to suffer, poetic justice saves them from their convictions of sin... God's mercy endures to teh end of time, does not end , cannot end, as foolish sinner religionists claim it does against scripture [which states over a hundred times that God's mercy endures ...

The fact that God's mercy endures for those who have eternal life hardly proves that no one is damned.

ye do greatly err , not knowing the whole scripture, not knowing God for God is Love , else you would have found out men can have up to three lives to learn to Love, and God and Jesus confirm three is all it takes...

So I have to love Hitler to know God? You have a very strange notion of love that seems very intellectual to me, not heart centered. And what is this kooky stuff about three lives? Is this a misguided reference to Job 33:29?

those who refuse spirit baptism by speaking against the very spirit of god, unabvle to listen when God baptises all flesh in the kingdom come [Joel 2:28] will indeed have to learn the harder way by trying their way of sin in the 'lake of fire' , but only to find it is unbearable to suffer all the sins of others rather than just being the one doing the sinning ...

How can having their soul destroyed be learning the hard way? Where does the Bible give any indication that one can come back from having your soul destroyed?

there can be no forgiveness in their first two lives of sin , but they will retract their rejection of the Truth given them by God in the lake of fire and sue for enduring mercy of God ... it is that we know this because all creation will accept Jesus eventually as Jesus states all will :-

No where does it say "all creation". That is just a fabrication on your part. As I pointed out before, entities in the outer darkness are not mentioned. You said that this was a red herring and that I had somehow ignored your main points (in a message with only four lines), yet now you repeat your original bogus assertion without having addressed the criticism I already leveled against it.

denying the holy spirit of God when He talks to one is most problematic for a man because the kingdom is sealed, no-one can enter whilst they have not accepted spirit baptism to know the Truth of Love of God ...
thus this sin is the one that takes longest to resolve

How can you contort the phrase "can never be forigven" and "cannot be forgiven" to mean that they can be forgiven after awhile? (Matt 12:31, Luke 12:10, Mark 3:29)

, but God is Love of all, none can be left indefinitely in outer darkness of denial of Love that fulfils once accepted FREELY [for Love cannot be forced on anyone, all must re-learn to be Loving after the world teaches them to be unloving]

This is not Biblical, it is pure speculation. The fact that God is love does not mean that all entities are love. That is a pretty fantastic leap that you make there, and it is completely non-sequitur.

the first two deaths though bring the opportunity of salvation to billions before the lake of fire resolves sin for the remainder, since death is wages of sin only because it frees men from sin to be resurrected [Rom 6:7] , otherwise men become servants of sin and find it impossible to free themselves , to choose Love freely ...

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

one cannot know God as a sinner, so those who refuse to stop sinning at water baptism will die to free them from sin at the second resurrection , but sin in the kingdom come after baptisnm of all flesh to receive the Truth persnally, individually, from God Himself equally necessitates death to free one from sin again, a second death, but then one must learn the nhard way by trying to live with the most evil of men , finding out sin doesn't suit anyone in the lake of fire, God's final trial...

How does Romans 6:7 apply to the "resurrection to damnation"? How does "damnation" free them from sin?

 

[LutheranMafia]

What a blow hard. All this in response to a one line comment.

willieH: Hi PW...

I have LM on ignore... but in your quote of his words:

Originally Posted by LutheranMafia

This is a classic case of a messiah complex. He equates himself as being on the same level as Christ.
​

You have agreed with him:





Which only amounts to gossip. Backbiting is a common thing amongst many, and only serves to add coals of judgment unto those who participate IN it.


In conclusion, ...it does not matter to me, what YOU or "LutheranMafia" think of me. That you voice your slanderings publicly only shows the spiritual "level" you 2 have "accomplished". Makes me so very sad for you.


GOD certainly knows my humility where HE and HIS SON are concerned, so any amount of backbiting which is done by you and LM, ...won't change that an iota.


I do not at all think of myself as equal to JESUS CHRIST... He is my LORD... and YHVH is my God. I am here because of them... and lay all that I am, as well as all that I am not, before both in humility to them both.


However, ...I do call myself a child (son) of the Most High, for YHVH God has called all men that -- Psalm 82:6 -- and I would like to remind you that this text is the PRIMARY quote which JESUS made to the Pharisees, which made them wish to KILL Him, consorting (as do you and LM against me), ...against Him -- John 10:34-39






FIRST --- Name ONE TEXT that notes we are --- "saved from HELL"... ...and that JESUS died "to SAVE us from HELL"...


SECOND--- CHRIST did not DIE to save men from "HELL"... Here is why He died -- Rom 5:8 -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- John 3:17 -- Luke 19:10


THIRD --- And, ..."FEAR", is that which LOVE, ...CASTS OUT -- 1 John 4:18 -- LOVE does not EVER promote FEAR in any way.






FIRST --- now you EMBELLISH the "great commission" -- Matt 28:19 -- Would you please provide us a BIBLICAL text which notes that we are to "PREACH" anything other than the GOSPEL?




CHRIST did not command His followers to go and teach ANYTHING other than the GOSPEL... which is the:


GOSPEL of PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- given of the,


GOD of PEACE -- Rom 15:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- 1 Thess 5:23 -- 2 Thess 3:16 -- Heb 7:2 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 Cor 14:33 -- spoken unto men by the,


SON of PEACE -- Luke 10:6



SECOND --- What "PEACE" is found in "HELL", or in the teaching of "HELL", PW?



THIRD --- The "LAW" is over (concerning judgment and payment for SIN) -- Col 2:14 -- Matt 5:38-48 -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- Isaiah 50:1 -- We are under GRACE. This does not give one license to SIN, for whatever a man SOWS, he WILL REAP -- Gal 6:8 -- what do you think CANCER, AIDS, MS, DIVORCE, WAR, etc. are? A warm-up for WORSE? -- Oh yeah, I guess that IS what you "think"!


We are COMMISSIONED to preach the MINISTRY of RECONCILIATION (of all things) -- 2 Cor 5:16-19 -- Col 1:20 -- which is (the GOSPEL) SALVATION by GRACE which much MORE EXCEEDS any and ALL SIN (in any amount, in any degree) -- Rom 5:20





PEACE... ...willieH

 

[LutheranMafia]

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
This is what God's Word says. I believe it, just as written.

You don't believe it as it is written, you define words to suite your prejudice and then claim that this twisting is somehow a literal interpretation vs. using the far common defintions of the words used by virtually all scholars, which of course you claim somehow results in a symbolic interpretation.

Sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "I'm not listening to you! I'm not listening to you! And I know I'm right!" somehow proves anything? You seem to think that your total inability to accurately portray the orthodox point of view, somehow makes you objective.

What would you think of our argument if we demonstrate a complete inability to accurately portray your argument? You would quite naturally think that we were a bunch of idiots who have no clue. So why do you think the situation should be any different for you?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

You don't believe it as it is written, you define words to suite your prejudice and then claim that this twisting is somehow a literal interpretation vs. using the far common defintions of the words used by virtually all scholars, which of course you claim somehow results in a symbolic interpretation.

Sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "I'm not listening to you! I'm not listening to you! And I know I'm right!" somehow proves anything? You seem to think that your total inability to accurately portray the orthodox point of view, somehow makes you objective.

What would you think of our argument if we demonstrate a complete inability to accurately portray your argument? You would quite naturally think that we were a bunch of idiots who have no clue. So why do you think the situation should be any different for you?

Perhaps he conveniently forgot to read the rest of John.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[Timothew]

Perhaps he conveniently forgot to read the rest of John.

No I read it.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Do you actually think that I believe those who are condemned to eternal death are somehow NOT condemned? How do you and Mafia figure that?

 

[Timothew]

What would you think of our argument if we demonstrate a complete inability to accurately portray your argument?

You actually do demonstrate a complete inability to accurately portray my argument. So I don't think much of your argument.

Here is your argument, tell me if it accurately protrays your view.
You believe the bible says that the wicked will be tormented in hell forever as a result of their sin. You believe this is just, because the sin was committed against God who is completely holy. You believe that God can't have sin in his presence due to his holiness, and you believe that people's souls are immortal. Since they can't be in God's presence, and they have to exist somewhere, you believe they exist outside of God's presence, and this is the torment. Some eternal tormentalists are more literal than others (ie Jonathan Edwards) and they believe that hell-fire is literal. Others are less literal and believe varying degrees of mental anguish. You believe the "perish" in John 3:16 doesn't mean "perish" the way most people think of perishing, instead perish refers to a state of mental or physical torment in hell after death. You believe that eternal life is not just living forever, it is being in the presence of God forever.

 

[Timothew]

Originally Posted by Timothew

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
This is what God's Word says. I believe it, just as written.
​

You don't believe it as it is written.

Actually, I do believe John 3:16 is true, exactly as written.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

No I read it.

Do you actually think that I believe those who are condemned to eternal death are somehow NOT condemned? How do you and Mafia figure that?

Condemned isn't annihilation. Condemned isn't just simply dying and not getting eternal life.

 

[Timothew]

Condemned isn't annihilation. Condemned isn't just simply dying and not getting eternal life.

Well now, isn't that what we are discussing? Is the condemnation eternal torment or death? According to the bible, the wages of sin is death. Therefore the condemnation is destruction. Or haven't you read that Sodom and Gemorrah were condemned and reduced to ashes? And this condemnation was for an exampe of the coming condemnation for all who reject God. " He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter." 2 Peter 2:6
(or to use your own words, Did you conveniently forget to read it? How kind you are!)

So you can't say that condemnation is not destruction, what you call "annihilation". Sodom and Gemorrah were the example of the coming condemnation and they were not eternally tormented, they were destroyed.

First you said I didn't read John 3:18, about condemnation.
Then when I pointed out that that I do believe in the condemnation of the wicked, you moved the goalposts and said being condemned to death is not condemnation. Now I've pointed out that the bible specifically says that destruction is the condemnation, are you planning to move the goalposts further back?

Why don't you just accept the truth of what the bible says? The wages of sin is death. If Paul had intended to say that the wages of sin is to be tormented in hell forever, he could have written that.

 

[Timothew]

Imagine that you had never heard of “hell.” The eternal misery of the damned in dungeons of fire, Dante’s Inferno, Jonathan Edwards’ classic sermon, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God,” you hadn’t heard of any of it. And now imagine that you were about to open a book that tells us what the judgement of God on his enemies will be like. You read this:

The LORD will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to pay back his anger in fury, and his rebuke in flames of fire.
For by fire will the LORD execute judgement, and by his sword, on all flesh; and those slain by the LORD will be many.
From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the LORD.
And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

(Isaiah 66:15-16, 23-24)​

It’s pretty fearsome stuff, granted, but beyond that, what would you make of it? Endless suffering? Torment forever in the fires of hell? Not likely. Such ideas would never even occur to you when reading a passage like this. Anyone able to read the above passage can see what it describes: Death.
(credit for this excellent article: Glenn Peoples)

To see the rest go to:
Worms and Fire: The Rabbis or Isaiah? | Rethinking Hell

 

[he-man]

Imagine that you had never heard of “hell.” The eternal misery of the damned in dungeons of fire, Dante’s Inferno, Jonathan Edwards’ classic sermon, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God,” you hadn’t heard of any of it. And now imagine that you were about to open a book that tells us what the judgement of God on his enemies will be like. You read this:

The LORD will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to pay back his anger in fury, and his rebuke in flames of fire.
For by fire will the LORD execute judgement, and by his sword, on all flesh; and those slain by the LORD will be many.
From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the LORD.
And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

(Isaiah 66:15-16, 23-24)​

It’s pretty fearsome stuff, granted, but beyond that, what would you make of it? Endless suffering? Torment forever in the fires of hell? Not likely. Such ideas would never even occur to you when reading a passage like this. Anyone able to read the above passage can see what it describes: Death.
(credit for this excellent article: Glenn Peoples)

To see the rest go to:
Worms and Fire: The Rabbis or Isaiah? | Rethinking Hell

 

[strangertoo]

the wages of sin is DEATH, which frees man from sin [Rom 6:7], not torture ... it is God's Loving answer to those many in this life who REFUSE to admit that they can stop sinning as Jesus and the saints show is FULLY POSSIBLE to DO... and there are countless hundreds of thousands of sinners dressed up as OT priests [LOLOL? - dressed in uniform of the FAILED Levite priesthood, BECAUSE there is no uniform for saints by which to claim false authority IN PLACE OF THE SON OF GOD - Vicarius Filii Dei - as if we need a sinner in place of Jesus when we have Jesus , AND it adds to 666 in Latin... ]

Jesus said mass religion of men would be taken over by Satan Rev 13:3-4, so why are men surprised that it has happened ?

What does one expect but endless subtle lies from a religion generated by Satan ?

worst lie of all is that men are born as sinners, cannot live by Love... the saints and Jesus DISPROVED this ,but many claiming to follow Jesus still say it, the complete OPPOSITE of the Truth of God that men can ONLY be saved by stopping sinning, and all sinners are still servants of Satan, religious or not, claiming to be a 'priest' or not :-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you:
Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

NO-ONE is accepted by God until they stop sinning, it is the FIRST STEP, water baptism is commitment to STOP sinning :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Jesus at his return says he will DENY all who are still sinners :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

 

[WillieH]

Perhaps he conveniently forgot to read the rest of John.

Nah, ...perhaps it was YOU which, ..."conveniently forgot to read the "rest of John!"


ALL men begin "condemned", because they have SINNED -- Rom 3:23 -- and of themselves can only produce "FILTHY RAGS" and then foolishly esteem them as "righteous works" -- Isaiah 64:6-7 -- Matt 7:22-23


However, NO MAN can COME to CHRIST -- JOHN 6:44, 65 -- till GOD draws them to Him, and NO MAN can CONFESS the name of CHRIST unto Salvation -- Rom 10:10-13 -- 1 Cor 12:3 -- until GOD enables their lips, and NO MAN can have FAITH to "BELIEVE" He is LORD, until CHRIST "authors" (generates that faith) -- Heb 12:2 -- and is NOT SAVED until CHRIST "finishes" (completes) that FAITH.


If you read on a few verses further in John 3, ...it says:


JOHN 3:27 -- John answered and SAID: a MAN can RECIEVE NOTHING, except IT BE GIVEN HIM from HEAVEN.


So no man can "RECIEVE" the GIFT of FAITH which SAVES -- Eph 2:8-9 -- EXCEPT it be GIVEN him from Heaven, completed (alpha to omega) -- by the authoring and finishing of IT, by CHRIST... APART from any WORKS whatsoever, that said "condemned SINNER" might do, to GAIN it. (except of course, that said recipient might BOAST of gaining it of him/her own "doings")



PEACE... ...willieH

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I'm a little confused here.

I already said that I don't believe we can do anything to believe in Christ so I'm not really sure why you seem to be railing on that point and saying I didn't read John.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Timothew]

I'm a little confused here.

I already said that I don't believe we can do anything to believe in Christ so I'm not really sure why you seem to be railing on that point and saying I didn't read John.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

I wasn't the one who said that.
But I gave good honest answers to all of your objections. It looks like it is merely stubbornness that keeps you in the eternal torment camp. You know my view is biblical. Why not just accept that the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I wasn't the one who said that.
But I gave good honest answers to all of your objections. It looks like it is merely stubbornness that keeps you in the eternal torment camp. You know my view is biblical. Why not just accept that the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment?

That response was for WillieH.

I believe that the wages of sin is death, which Jesus rescues us from. But unbelievers don't get rescued. Their death is a death from Christ. The passages we use have been talked about ad nauseum here. The same old argument every time comes from ignorance about languages, and probably some stubborness from people in your own camp in an effort to put God in a box that makes sense. We can't fathom a God who would send people to eternal torment. But we also know that we can't fully understand God's ways.