Eternal torment is not a Bible doctrine (2)

[Timothew]

That response was for WillieH.

I believe that the wages of sin is death, which Jesus rescues us from. But unbelievers don't get rescued. Their death is a death from Christ. The passages we use have been talked about ad nauseum here. The same old argument every time comes from ignorance about languages, and probably some stubborness from people in your own camp in an effort to put God in a box that makes sense. We can't fathom a God who would send people to eternal torment. But we also know that we can't fully understand God's ways.

We can understand a God who gives eternal life as a free gift to those who repent of their sins. And we understand that some people refuse to repent and go to God to receive the free gift of eternal life.

All of your objections were answered biblically, but you choose to remain in the unbiblical camp. That's all I meant by "stubbornness". I didn't intend it in any negative sense.

You know from 2 Thess 1:9 that the penalty is eternal destruction, and not eternal torment. Why don't you just accept the biblical truth instead of straining against it? Those who believe in him will not perish (be condemned to destruction) but will have eternal life (the opposite of eternal death). The truth is right there, ready for you to accept it.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

We can understand a God who gives eternal life as a free gift to those who repent of their sins. And we understand that some people refuse to repent and go to God to receive the free gift of eternal life.

All of your objections were answered biblically, but you choose to remain in the unbiblical camp. That's all I meant by "stubbornness". I didn't intend it in any negative sense.

You know from 2 Thess 1:9 that the penalty is eternal destruction, and not eternal torment. Why don't you just accept the biblical truth instead of straining against it? Those who believe in him will not perish (be condemned to destruction) but will have eternal life (the opposite of eternal death). The truth is right there, ready for you to accept it.

I have already accepted the truth, Timothew. Something that is eternal does not end. Destruction that is eternal doesn't sound like anything I'd want to experience.Torment is not anything I'd like to experience. I imagine most people would agree with me.

I'm not being unbiblical. You have a very different opinion as to what the bible says than what many biblical scholars who are learned in language have to say, that's all.

 

[Timothew]

I have already accepted the truth, Timothew. Something that is eternal does not end. Destruction that is eternal doesn't sound like anything I'd want to experience.Torment is not anything I'd like to experience. I imagine most people would agree with me.

I'm not being unbiblical. You have a very different opinion as to what the bible says than what many biblical scholars who are learned in language have to say, that's all.

I never said that anything that is eternal ever ends. Of course you don't want to experience eternal destruction and I'm not saying you will. I don't want to experience it either. We are just talking about what the bible says.
Torment is not something I want to experience either, but the majority of the bibel says the punishment is destruction, not torment. There is just one verse that seems to indicate torment and that is in the highly symbolic book of Revelation. One verse doesn't trump the dozens or hundreds of verses that say the wicked perish, die, and are destroyed.

I'll just let you be now. I've said my piece, and you don't accept it. I'll see you at the resurrection, when we both enter God's Kingdom. God bless you sister.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I never said that anything that is eternal ever ends. Of course you don't want to experience eternal destruction and I'm not saying you will. I don't want to experience it either. We are just talking about what the bible says.
Torment is not something I want to experience either, but the majority of the bibel says the punishment is destruction, not torment. There is just one verse that seems to indicate torment and that is in the highly symbolic book of Revelation. One verse doesn't trump the dozens or hundreds of verses that say the wicked perish, die, and are destroyed.

I'll just let you be now. I've said my piece, and you don't accept it. I'll see you at the resurrection, when we both enter God's Kingdom. God bless you sister.

God bless you as well.

 

[Phantasman]

A new look- The Apocalypse of Peter

Eternal fire, but forgiveness? Interesting.

(Up until now, there has been a lot like Revelations, setting up the coming of Christ)
240 throne, and set up the great pillar, and Christ himself, the undying unto the undying, shall come in the clouds in glory with the pure angels, and shall sit on the seat on the right of the Great One, judging the life of the godly and the walk of ungodly men.
And Moses also the great, the friend of the Most High shall come, clad in flesh, and the great Abraham himself shall come, and Isaac and Jacob, Jesus, Daniel, Elias, Ambacum (Habakkuk), and Jonas, and they whom the Hebrews slew: and all the Hebrews that were with (after ?) Jeremias shall be judged at the judgement seat, and he shall destroy them, that they may receive a due reward and expiate all that they did in their mortal life.
And then shall all men pass through a blazing river and unquenchable flame, and the righteous shall be saved whole all of them, but the ungodly shall perish therein unto all ages, even as many as wrought evil aforetime, and committed murders, and all that were privy thereto, liars, thieves, deceivers, cruel destroyers of houses, gluttons, marriers by stealth, shedders of evil rumours, sorely insolent lawless, idolaters: and all that forsook the great immortal God and became blasphemers and harmers of the godly, breakers of faith and destroyers of righteous men.



And all that look with guileful and shameless double faces -reverend priests and deacons- and judge unjustly, dealing perversely, obeying false rumours . . . more deadly than leopards and wolves, and very evil: and all that are high-minded, and usurers that heap up in their houses usury out of usury and injure orphans and widows continually: and they that give alms of unjust gain unto widows and orphans, and they that when they give alms of their own toil, reproach them; and they that have forsaken their parents in their old age and not repaid them at all, nor recompensed them for their nurture; yea, and they that have disobeyed and spoken hard words against their parents: they also that have received pledges and denied them, and servants that have turned against their masters; and again they which have defiled their flesh in lasciviousness, and have loosed the girdle of virginity in secret union, and they that make the child in the womb miscarry, and that cast out their offspring against right: sorcerers also and sorceresses with these shall the wrath of the heavenly and immortal God bring near unto the pillar, all round about which the untiring river of fire shall flow. And all of them shall the undying angels of the immortal everlasting God chastise terribly with flaming scourges, and shall bind them fast from above in fiery chains, bonds unbreakable. And then shall they cast them down in the darkness of night into Gehenna among the beasts of hell, many and frightful, where is darkness without measure.


And when they have dealt out many torments unto all whose heart was evil, thereafter out of the great river shall a wheel of fire encompass them, because they devised wicked works. And then shall they lament apart every one from another in miserable fate, fathers and infant children, mothers and sucklings weeping, nor shall they be sated with tears nor shall the voice of them that mourn piteously apart be heard (?); but far under dark and squalid Tartarus shall they cry in torment, and in no holy place shall they abide and expiate threefold every evil deed that they have done, burning in a great flame; and shall gnash their teeth, all of them worn out with fierce thirst and hunger (al. force violence), and shall call death lovely and it shall flee from them: for no more shall death nor night give them rest, and oft-times shall they beseech in vain the Almighty God, and then shall he openly turn away his face from them. For he hath granted the limit of seven ages for repentance unto men that err, by the hand of a pure virgin.


But the residue which have cared for justice and good deeds, yea, and godliness and righteous thoughts, shall angels bear up and carry through the flaming river unto light, and life without care, where is the immortal path of the great God; and three fountains, of wine and honey and milk. And the earth, common to all, not parted out with walls or fences, shall then bring forth of her own accord much fruit, and life and wealth shall be common and undistributed. For there shall be no poor man, nor rich, nor tyrant, nor slave, none great nor small any longer, no kings, no princes; but all men shall be together in common. And no more shall any man say ' night is come ', nor ' the morrow ', nor ' it was yesterday '. He maketh no more of days, nor of spring, nor winter, nor summer, nor autumn, neither marriage,nor death, nor selling, nor buying, nor set of sun, nor rising. For God shall make one long day.


And unto them, the godly, shall the almighty and immortal God grant another boon, when they shall ask it of him. He shall grant them to save men out of the fierce fire and the eternal gnashing of teeth: and this will he do, for he will gather them again out of the everlasting flame and remove them else whither, sending them for the sake of his people unto another life eternal and immortal, in the Elysian plain where are the long waves of the Acherusian lake exhaustless and deep bosomed;

 

[seeingeyes]

saved from the emptiness and misery of unlovingness in life , saved from the destructiveness of sin ... some even saved from the irrelevance of sleep in death :-

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

God is not about fear, but about Love although some only come to understanding of Love through the stage of first fearing the power of God before they understand God through Love and in spirit baptism to know all Truth for God direct... John 18:13 , Heb 8:8-12

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1 John 4:16...and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Love is simply a vastly better way to live... one does not need fear to appreciate the wonderful nature of a Loving life, in fact perfect Love casts out all fear ... your premise is simply completely wrong...

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

The post this was in response to was meant to be rhetorical, but thanks for shooting it down.

 

[he-man]

A new look but far under dark and squalid Tartarus shall they cry in torment, and in no holy place shall they abide and expiate threefold every evil deed that they have done, burning in a great flame; and shall gnash their teeth, all of them worn out with fierce thirst and hunger (al. force violence), and shall call death lovely and it shall flee from them: for no more shall death nor night give them rest, and oft-times shall they beseech in vain the Almighty God, and then shall he openly turn away his face from them. For he hath granted the limit of seven ages for repentance unto men that err, by the hand of a pure virgin.

The etymology of Asmodseus, the king of the daemons in Jewish mythology, seems to point to a connection with Apollyon in his character as "the destroyer," or the destroying angel.
Compare Ecclus. xviii, 22,25. See Asmoileus.

1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif][FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif]In the Bible, the word abaddon means destruction (Job. xxxi, 12), or the place of destruction, i. e. the subterranean world, Hades, the region of the dead (Job xxvi, 6; xxviii, 22; Prov. xv, 11). It is, in fact, the second of the seven names which the Rabbins apply to that region; and they deduce it particularly from Psa. lxxxviii, 11, " Shall thy loving-kindness be declared in the grave, or thy faithfulness in (abaddon) destruction?" [/FONT][/FONT]​

But that in Rev. ix, 11 Abaddon is the angel, and not the abyss, is perfectly evident in the Greek. There is a general connection with the destroyer (q. v.) alluded to in 1 Chron. xxi, 15

Cyclopedia of Bibical Literature, James Strong, and Rev. John McClintock

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi PW...

I believe that the wages of sin is death, which Jesus rescues us from.

Where does it say in the WORD, that JESUS "rescues us from "DEATH"? All men are appointed to DIE once (on the DAY you "eat" of the tree) which is the DEATH of the SOUL -- Ez 18:20 -- Heb 9:27 -- then the JUDGMENT occurs -- John 12:31 -- which "judgment" is NOW... and which "judgment" is DEATH (of the flesh) -- Rom 6:23 -- Then the 2nd death occurs after we REAP what we have SOWN -- Gal 6:8 -- which is the DEATH of the flesh.

But unbelievers don't get rescued.

Are you kidding me? That is COMPLETELY a false teaching, as it is "UNBELIEVERS" which are rescued from their "UNBELIEF" (which is having FAITH in the words and commands of God - which began with ADAM and EVE)


ALL are (begin as) "unbelievers" before GOD changes that aspect of His Children -- CHRIST died for ALL -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- and NONE of His sacrifice shall be found IN VAIN -- Isaiah 55:11


God vehemently notes that He has NO RESPECT (Partiality) of PERSONS -- Prov 28:21 (and 10 other times) -- and it is HE which generates BELIEF (faith) -- Heb 12:2 -- which SHALL be done in ALL -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- before the conclusion of this world which IS SAVED by His Son which did NOT FAIL in His mission to SAVE it -- 1 John 4:18 -- for He IS the SAVIOR of ALL MEN -- 1 Tim 9:10

Their death is a death from Christ.

Again... you base your "philosphy of God" upon YOUR WORDS, not upon His.


You FAIL to note even ONE VERSE which notes that there is such a thing as "death from CHRIST"... So your statement rests completely upon YOUR WORDS, not upon HIS.

The passages we use have been talked about ad nauseum here.

You list NO PASSAGES... which is indeed THAT which is, "ad nauseum"

The same old argument every time comes from ignorance about languages, and probably some stubborness from people in your own camp in an effort to put God in a box that makes sense.

If you have not at all, researched your beliefs in the ORIGINAL languages, then you rest your beliefs upon the work of MEN, which are ALWAYS RELIGIOUSLY biased, and are produced by SINNERS.


Your belief about Salavation is essentially about YOURSELF, not about the WORLD that GOD so UNCHANGLINGLY -- Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 -- LOVES. Until you find the LOVE that YHVH GOD (and His Son) have for humanity, you shall FAIL to see His SUCCESSFUL effort to SAVE it... for MAN cannot "save himself" from SIN.


Falsely preaching (as a member of Babylon, the FALSE PROPHET) that the effort of YHVH and His CHRIST, FAILED to save the WORLD, that they both, SO LOVE.


Either they SUCCEEDED or they FAILED to SAVE the WORLD -- John 3:16-17 -- 1 John 4:14 -- If you teach the WORLD is not SAVED, then you teach DIVINE FAILURE, and you FALSELY teach that SIN is greater than GRACE (in MOST) -- Rom 5:20 -- which is ANTI-CHRIST (for CHRIST is the WORD, which CLEARLY states that WHERE "sin abounded" - GRACE did MUCH MORE "abound".)


I choose to believe Our Lord and His FATHER, SUCCEEDED for LOVE (which GOD IS -- 1 John 4:8)...NEVER... fails -- 1 Cor 13:8


You are welcome to cling to your fallacies... and make excuses for not RESEARCHING your beliefs, ..."ad nasueum".

We can't fathom a God who would send people to eternal torment. But we also know that we can't fully understand God's ways.

Another excuse...


He has invited us to REASON with Him -- Isaiah 1:18 -- not keep the TRUTH in a man-made "SHROUD", called RELIGION! Which makes excuses about lack of understanding, instead of a DILIGENT and WHOLE-HEART seeking of the Almighty -- Jer 29:13-14


You shall not KNOW the TRUTH, until you disassociate from SELF -- Gal 2:20 -- and find the ALL-ENCOMPASSING Salvation of GOD -- 1 Cor 15:22 & 28


If it is your experience with LOVE, that it actively in ETERNAL ANGER, either KILLS or TORMENTS the objects that it cherishes, ...then you are decieved about what LOVE, ...IS... to begin with.


LOVE is not a "secret" thing... it is what this world and ALL (that EXISTS), is based upon. And it is about making FRIENDS of enemies -- Matt 5:38-48 -- not about resorting to THEIR fleshly violence and vengence.



PEACE... ...willieH

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Oh Willie.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying.

We don't do anything for salvation. Jesus already took care of that. And yes, he died for EVERYONE. But not everyone takes him up on that offer.

It's like I put a $100 in everyone's pocket. No one did anything for me to put that money in their pocket. Those who use it get the reward. Those who don't lose out.

The passages I would list out have already been argued here. I don't need to relist them - you're welcome to go back and read thru.

I'm pretty learned in the old languages, and I'm married to a guy who can speak them.

 

[WillieH]

I have already accepted the truth, Timothew. Something that is eternal does not end

This is only HALF the observation of "ETERNAL"... that which is ETERNAL, has NO BEGINNING either.


PEACE... ...willieH

 

[LutheranMafia]

You actually do demonstrate a complete inability to accurately portray my argument. So I don't think much of your argument.

How do I inaccurately portray your argument? By disagreeing with it?

About two years ago when I called your view soul sleep is the only time you have any kind of valid point with regards to inaccurately portraying your point of view. That was only because I had no other label to call it and you were no help, you couldn't come up with any label to call your views. Finally you threw out "conditional immortality", a rather combersome phrase that accordingly hasn't stuck.

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi PW...

Oh Willie.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying.

Thanks for all the "understanding" credit!


I have been studying the WORD since you were a wee 1 year old, dear sister... (37 years), and I just might "understand" a bit more, than you might prefer...


I have spoken on several occasions with those who hold the ability to converse in Hebrew and/or Greek... but that in itself, does not establish SPIRITUAL insight... REASON is the most integral need, in the "understanding" of SPIRITUAL matters...




MOST if not ALL (hey I shall concede that there are a few here & there that gain "understanding" of Scriptural texts) the divided sectors of "christianity"... are unconcerned with REASON... as they PURPOSELY and SHAMELESSLY fail to apply it to their observations and conclusions of GOD.


Which disqualifies those "observations and conclusions" from actually being TRUTHFUL, for GOD has invited REASON to our "understanding" party! -- Isaiah 1:18 -- WITHOUT it... there is no "TRUTH"...


Which is WHY such blasphemies as HELL and ANNHILATION, are the report which bring FEAR to the WORLD that GOD (so) LOVES... in the stead of the GOSPEL (which means GOOD NEWS)...


Leaving OUT, ...the inherent DIVINE attributes of LOVE, JUSTICE, PEACE, MERCY, FORGIVENESS, and GRACE... and in their stead, teach DESTRUCTION, VENGENCE, TORMENT, and FEARFULNESS! (which LOVE/GOD actively casts OUT -- 1 John 4:18 -- 1 John 4:8)


Which are the tainted CONDITIONS within the message of the crooked -- Matt 7:22-23 -- and which shall find the SHAME of NAKEDNESS -- Rev 3:18 -- before Him at His coming... which OUGHT NOT SO TO BE -- James 3:5-10




Claiming to be the messengers of the GOSPEL... instead, become the messengers of CORRUPTION! To be EXPOSED, for the SELF-oriented, and decieved factions they are -- Matt 24:5


Thinking haughtily that the CHRIST must be "accepted" by them (instead of falling before Him pleading for HIS ACCEPTANCE -- Luke 18:10-14),


Thinking "SELF" holds Salvation in its hand, instead of GOD deciding who shall LIVE and WHY they shall live... condemning to HELL or ANNHILATION, ALL that do not ascribe to their deceptive and self-centered theologies... when the WORD specifically and CLEARLY notes the opposite to be true -- Eph 2:8-9


To be pitied... To be prayed for...

We don't do anything for salvation. Jesus already took care of that. And yes, he died for EVERYONE. But not everyone takes him up on that offer.

This (as I see it) is pretty SHORT SIGHTED of you PW...


That YOU perceive that He has placed the FINALIZATION of HIS SALVATION of YOU... upon YOU "taking Him up His offer"? ...which means that YOU (in the end) are YOUR OWN SAVIOR, as it REQUIRES, ..."YOUR OKAY", in order that YOU be saved.


Are you kidding me? ...You really don't see anything questionable here, PW?

The passages I would list out have already been argued here. I don't need to relist them - you're welcome to go back and read thru.

I do not see the need to revisit this thread... as you can tell by my posts, I am quite studied as to where my observations are established in the WORD... most of those locations are committed to memory (God is my witness, He and I visit these verses together, ...daily)

I'm pretty learned in the old languages, and I'm married to a guy who can speak them.

Areya now? (actually, that your hubby speaks these languages, should have nothing to do with YOUR own personal perception of Scripture, or does he prescribe your beliefs for you? ...I'm thinkin' not - ) So your mention of his abilities is really somewhat, a strawman fallacy, as it is irrelevant, and does not address our discussion at all.


His understandings and lingual abilities where our discussion is concerned, are irrelevant.


Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


A relationship with GOD, does not pass through ones spouse... it is (or at least SHOULD BE), a DIRECT activity. In your relationship with your spouse (I have the same spouse for 36+ years)... no one I have ever known goes "through" another person to establish their marriage relationship.


My wife has her OWN relationship with God... even though we OFTEN discuss Him and pray/study together.


The same procedures apply to the intimate relationship we establish with our Maker.


That you claim that you are "pretty learned" in the "old languages" (I shall assume you refer to Hebrew and Greek), therefore makes YOU all the more ACCOUNTABLE, now doesn't it?


Now we are getting somewhere! (hopefully! - )


Of course, since you are "pretty learned", then you already KNOW that the GREEK word "BOULEMA" (translated - "willing") as is found in -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- means INTENT and/or RESOLVE, right?


So in effect, the statement made in -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- is saying that GOD is NOT (INTENT / RESOLVED / WILLING -- and He does not change) that ANY should perish, and that ALL should come to the knowledge of the TRUTH...


Or shall you imply that He is kidding us?


I will be very curious, as to how you might explain this (seeing you believe in the destruction of MANY)?


That is that GOD ----> is NOT WILLING ...(#G1014 - BOULEMA = with INTENT / RESOLVE / WILLING) that ANY PERISH, ...and that ALL should come to ----> the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and thereby REPENT, accordingly!


As is AGREEABLY and HARMONIOUSLY noted by the Apostle PAUL (almost word for word) in -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 -- that He WILL have ALL MEN to be SAVED... by coming to -----> the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH, to be TESTIFIED ( #G3141 - MARTURIA = EVIDENCED) in due time!


You KNOW these Greek words, right? As you noted that you are "pretty learned" in this language...





PEACE... ...willieH

 

[LutheranMafia]

Here is your argument, tell me if it accurately protrays your view.
You believe the bible says that the wicked will be tormented in hell forever as a result of their sin.

OK. You got the brief synopsis right at least.

You believe this is just, because the sin was committed against God who is completely holy.

This is confabulation. I have never said anything like this.

You believe that God can't have sin in his presence due to his holiness,

False. This contradicts God's omnipresence. Omnipresence is part of the Nicene Creed. Mormons and JW's are the only groups of any kind that I can find who deny that God is omnipresent. Tim, you just flunked basic Christianity 101.

and you believe that people's souls are immortal.

False. This is overtly contradicted by Lutheran theology. The following is from an LCMS (Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod) statement of doctrine:

At death the soul is not annihilated, but neither does it possess immortality
​

Since they can't be in God's presence, and they have to exist somewhere, you believe they exist outside of God's presence, and this is the torment.

False. Denying omnipresence again.

Some eternal tormentalists are more literal than others (ie Jonathan Edwards) and they believe that hell-fire is literal. Others are less literal and believe varying degrees of mental anguish.

OK. Not much of a point really, but at least it isn't totally wrong the way all your other specifics are.

You believe the "perish" in John 3:16 doesn't mean "perish" the way most people think of perishing

The way most people think of perishing involves an afterlife. What most people are you talking about? Atheists?

instead perish refers to a state of mental or physical torment in hell after death.

A half truth is as good as a lie. Lutherans believe that "perish" in the John 3:16 sense refers to soul death.

You believe that eternal life is not just living forever, it is being in the presence of God forever.

False. This denies omnipresence again.

That was an utterly abysmal performance, Tim.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Areya now? (actually, that your hubby speaks these languages, should have nothing to do with YOUR own personal perception of Scripture, or does he prescribe your beliefs for you? ...I'm thinkin' not - ) So your mention of his abilities is really somewhat, a strawman fallacy, as it is irrelevant, and does not address our discussion at all.


His understandings and lingual abilities where our discussion is concerned, are irrelevant.


Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


A relationship with GOD, does not pass through ones spouse... it is (or at least SHOULD BE), a DIRECT activity. In your relationship with your spouse (I have the same spouse for 36+ years)... no one I have ever known goes "through" another person to establish their marriage relationship.


My wife has her OWN relationship with God... even though we OFTEN discuss Him and pray/study together.


The same procedures apply to the intimate relationship we establish with our Maker.


That you claim that you are "pretty learned" in the "old languages" (I shall assume you refer to Hebrew and Greek), therefore makes YOU all the more ACCOUNTABLE, now doesn't it?

He seems to think that being married to a pastor is just like being married to any old person.

 

[LutheranMafia]

All of your objections were answered biblically, but you choose to remain in the unbiblical camp. That's all I meant by "stubbornness". I didn't intend it in any negative sense.

Your redefining words in the Bible does not make our interpretation unbiblical.

You know from 2 Thess 1:9 that the penalty is eternal destruction, and not eternal torment.

Your interpretation renders "eternal" here as being a totally extraneous word that is completely unnecessary.

Why don't you just accept the biblical truth instead of straining against it?

It is you who are straining by repeatedly explaining away the parts of the Bible that you don't like. You say those parts are either meaningless symbolic poetry or you explain them away in a manner that makes a word redudant and meaningless.

Those who believe in him will not perish (be condemned to destruction) but will have eternal life (the opposite of eternal death). The truth is right there, ready for you to accept it.

You say the truth comes from explaining away major chunks of the Bible as purely symbolic and using your invented definitions for words.

If you can't even come close to accurately portraying the orthodox point of view, how can you have any credibility in claiming that orthodoxy is wrong?

 

[LutheranMafia]

Or haven't you read that Sodom and Gemorrah were condemned and reduced to ashes? And this condemnation was for an exampe of the coming condemnation for all who reject God. " He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter." 2 Peter 2:6
(or to use your own words, Did you conveniently forget to read it? How kind you are!)

So you can't say that condemnation is not destruction, what you call "annihilation". Sodom and Gemorrah were the example of the coming condemnation and they were not eternally tormented, they were destroyed.

Using an atheist's definition of death and destruction proves nothing, Tim. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Why don't you just accept the truth of what the bible says? The wages of sin is death. If Paul had intended to say that the wages of sin is to be tormented in hell forever, he could have written that.

Why do you insist that using an atheist's definition of death is the key to understanding the Bible?

 

[Timothew]

The wages of sin is death.
These are real words with real meaning. This is God's Word, not something you can wave away lightly.

Be angry with me for telling you, but it is the truth.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

He seems to think that being married to a pastor is just like being married to any old person.

Oh I was surprised that there wasn't some commentary on the hopelessness of many pastors these days, not that I would deny it. I guess he just doesn't understand the studies that Lutheran pastors undertake.

The thing is, my faith is strengthened and edified DAILY by being married to my husband. Most people, when they have a question about scripture, have to wait to hear from their pastor (if they even have one) but I have one sleeping in the bed next to me. I could wake him up at 3am with a question if I wanted to. (I'm sure his members could too but I doubt any of them would take him up on that!)

All in all, and this is my final post in the thread, there's a reason why this topic is confined to the unorthodox theology section...the existence of hell and its implications are mainstream Christian beliefs. There is ample evidence that unrepentant sinners and unbelievers suffer in hell. Gnashing of teeth, the rich man begging Lazarus for even just a drop of water...these things are eternal, just like being in heaven is eternal. One can't be eternal forever without the other being eternal forever.

Yes, God is a merciful God, but he's also a jealous God and he's made it pretty clear what awaits unbelievers. Every knee shall bow, that is certain, but even the demons know who Jesus is - yet they are still demons and still not in heaven with God.

 

[Timothew]

Oh I was surprised that there wasn't some commentary on the hopelessness of many pastors these days, not that I would deny it. I guess he just doesn't understand the studies that Lutheran pastors undertake.

The thing is, my faith is strengthened and edified DAILY by being married to my husband. Most people, when they have a question about scripture, have to wait to hear from their pastor (if they even have one) but I have one sleeping in the bed next to me. I could wake him up at 3am with a question if I wanted to. (I'm sure his members could too but I doubt any of them would take him up on that!)

All in all, and this is my final post in the thread, there's a reason why this topic is confined to the unorthodox theology section...the existence of hell and its implications are mainstream Christian beliefs. There is ample evidence that unrepentant sinners and unbelievers suffer in hell. Gnashing of teeth, the rich man begging Lazarus for even just a drop of water...these things are eternal, just like being in heaven is eternal. One can't be eternal forever without the other being eternal forever.

Yes, God is a merciful God, but he's also a jealous God and he's made it pretty clear what awaits unbelievers. Every knee shall bow, that is certain, but even the demons know who Jesus is - yet they are still demons and still not in heaven with God.

Blessings

 

[strangertoo]

... all unbelievers become believers... Jesus own promise on that :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever

... why do you doubt Jesus' word and listen to the words of sinners instead ?

- just because there are a LOT of sinners ?
the MANY are DESTROYED , only FEW find Jesus' way in this life [Matt 7:13-14]

countless many though believe later in the kingdom come and are saved despite being destroyed in this life [Rev 7:9-10] so ,as Jesus showed, man is resurrected from the spiirit, destruction of the flesh does not end a man, indeed cannot... the spirit of a man is in God's image , how we are made, so one cannot destroy what is of God :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

thus ALL are freed from hell [Rev 20:13] and the many are saved by WORKS [Rev 20:13] , not grace , in the new earth kingdom come... not at Jesus return when only the few saints of this earth can be saved [Jude 1:14]