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Featured Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by surrender1, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. Eternal Torment

    33 vote(s)
    42.3%
  2. Annihilation

    16 vote(s)
    20.5%
  3. Universal Reconciliation

    10 vote(s)
    12.8%
  4. Probably annihilation but still hopeful of universal reconciliation

    5 vote(s)
    6.4%
  5. Not sure

    10 vote(s)
    12.8%
  6. Other

    4 vote(s)
    5.1%
  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Already addressed this. If I quoted the ECF for a college or graduate class the professor would certainly not ask me to prove the ECF were right.
    I have already responded to Abraham's bosom. I quoted the Abraham's Bosom article from the Jewish Encyclopedia in my link; [post #273] this thread.
    Good you tell me what you think that Lazarus, purple and fine linen, 5 brothers, why is the rich man in Hades rather than Gehenna, all mean and I'll google it and find a bunch of different opinions what it "really" means. Here is why the rich man was in Hades.

    Deuteronomy 15:7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
    Lazarus was not even given the crumbs from the rich man's table.
    Tell me again why you think "glory" proves this is an ecstatic vision and not factual?

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    Wrong again!

    2 Peter 1:16
    (16) For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming [παρουσία/parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

    2 Corinthians 7:6
    (6) Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming [παρουσία/parousia] of Titus;
    And a few more vss.
    2 Corinthians 10:10
    (10) For his [Paul's v.9] letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence [παρουσία/parousia]
    is weak, and his speech contemptible.

    Philippians 2:12
    (12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence [παρουσία/parousia] only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
    1 Corinthians 16:17
    (17) I am glad of the coming [παρουσία/parousia]
    of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied.
    Robertson Word Pictures.
    The power and coming (tēn dunamin kai parousian). These words can refer (Chase) to the Incarnation, just as is true of epiphaneia in 2Ti_1:10 (second coming in 1Ti_6:14), and is true of parousia (2Co_7:6 of Titus).
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017
  2. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    If there is no resurrection the Christian parishes. The only hope is resurrection. He doesn't say anyone is in Abraham's bosom, or Heaven, or anywhere else. It's either resurrection or perish that's it.


    I have already addressed these arguments in my Link:[post #248]. One figure of speech in a passage does not make the entire passage figurative. There was a king of Babylon, he did die, he was buried. As I have proved the Jews considered that passage factual. If you wnat to argue with them be my guest.
    [/QUOTE]

    Is it your claim that the part that doesn't fit your theology is figurative but the part that does fit it is literal?
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    That sure is careless of Paul he did not quote the entire NT when addressing the question of resurrection.
    I have already addressed these arguments in my Link:[post #248]. One figure of speech in a passage does not make the entire passage figurative. There was a king of Babylon, he did die, he was buried. As I have proved the Jews considered that passage factual. If you want to argue with them be my guest.
    No that is your modus operandi. There is an old maxim about interpreting scripture, if the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense. From my own personal experience trees don't rejoice. If you can tell me from your own personal experience that you have been there and you know what happens to a person after death, then I will accept your opinion that the dead do not speak etc.
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You overlook the immediate context which refers to those who are unsaved (v.17a):

    (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    (16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Compare these verses, which also speaks of God destroying [albeit indirectly] an unsaved person, by giving him to Satan, in order to save him:

    1 Cor. 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    1 Cor. 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    And therefore, in context, 3:15 is also referring to those who are not saved, but become saved "as by fire".

    Therefore 3:15 can & does refer to any & all unsaved persons. The most immediate context proves it beyond any shadow of a doubt.

    Every man's work...shall be revealed by fire; v.13
    the fire shall try every man's work v.13
    If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss v.15
    but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. v.15

    Paul said "every man", not "every saint", not "every believer", not "every church member", not "every Christian", not "everyone of us", and not "every labourer", etc.

    1 Cor.13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing...
    4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
    8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away...
    13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  5. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    One may not, however, dead people talking is a good clue that it is figurative. You keep telling me what hte Jews believed. As I've pointed out people can believe wrong stuff. ​

    Ok, but dead people talking doesn't make sense taken literally. Been where? I can tell you from my experience and the experiences of others that the dead can't talk
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is no "might" in a number of translations, such as, for a couple examples:

    "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (Jn.3:17, NIV)

    ""For God did not send His Son into the world so that He should judge the world, but so that the world SHALL be saved through Him." (Jn.3:17, Analytical Literal Translation)

    The word "may" or "might" also occurs here where there is no doubt that God will become "All in all":

    "And when all is subjected to him, then the Son shall be subject to him who subjected all things to him, that God might be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28)

    There is likewise no doubt that the world will be saved through Christ.

    "If they heard this phrase "God sent rain clouds so that it might rain," they would have taken it to mean that it would definitely rain, and that God sent the cloud to make that happen."

    "...Mat 13:35 that it might be fulfilled that was spoken through the prophet, saying, `I will open in similes my mouth, I will utter things having been hidden from the foundation of the world.'

    "Just my opinion but the "might's" are pretty much will."

    John 3:17 (Might Be?)

    Everyone who doesn't believe is condemned (v.18), which includes you & everyone else who was once an unbeliever. Clearly being condemned (or judged) did not keep you or them from being saved. Everyone will believe, either in this life or after. So all will be saved.

    The word for perish (Jn.3:16) is used in Scripture for the "lost" sheep & coin that were later found. Also Jesus body that was "destroyed" & raised 3 days later.

    Jesus seeks the lost till He finds them:

    "8 “Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins[a] and loses one. Doesn’t she light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.’ 10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” (Lk.15:8-10)

    The word "eternal" (aionion), transliterated into English as eonian, and the noun eon (Hebrew olam), are often used in Scripture & ancient writings of finite duration, or of an age (future or past) or the world to come.

    Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

    I came across this quote recently from a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

    "...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.”

    Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf



     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where does Matthew 7:22-23 say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity? I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end." ?

    Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to.

    "Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to ECT it's next to nothing.

    Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom.

    Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever?

    The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.

    Matthew 7:23 refers to a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

    Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.


    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  8. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    No, the target audience was the Pharisees beginning in the previous chapter;
    Luke 15:1-3 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
    3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
    And, specifically for the parable of the rich man and Lazarus;
    Luke 16:14-15 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them,

     
  9. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    You can get used to everyone ignoring the Jewish Encyclopedia. They are wrong on too many points.
     
  10. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    We can ignore those called "church fathers" whenever they contradict the Scriptures, because the Scriptures are not wrong, and those called "church fathers" are wrong .. many times!
    Yes, many like David, and Solomon, Job and Jehovah/YHVH God .... there is the "many" that teach the dead are NOT alive!
    Jehovah God told Adam
    Gen 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
    There is sheol!! There is hell!! It's "dust".
    Jehovah God told Hezikiah; Isa 38:1 .. Thus saith Jehovah, Set thy house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
    Die= NOT LIVE.
    "... the rest of the dead LIVED NOT AGAIN.." Rev 20

    Sounds like you should have listened to these people!!
     
  11. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry misunderstanding about Universalism. The ECT is probably one of the strongest doctrines in scripture. Those that don't believe in it most often have to do a lot of biblical gymnastics to get away from it.
     
  12. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

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    Its interesting that you accuse antiuniversalists who read their doctrinal suppositions into texts and then you provide an example of a universalist reading his doctrinal supposition into a text. If you continue the text you quoted you would read the following:

    16Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

    Also, please note that the scriptures you quote are out of context, which was my point I made in another post. It's very easy for ALL OF US to grab some scriptures we like or read something on the net or get some scriptures from a topical bible etc. and find things that support our thoughts. We have all done it. However, that does not excuse the fact that it is an improper way to study scripture. Taking a look at I Cor 3 as a whole context we find that Paul is talking about believers not unbelievers.

    1Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

    Infants in Christ he calls them. He is not talking about universal salvation. He is talking to and about believers "in Christ."

    And "his people" are all who believe not just the Israelites. Unless of course you are claiming that his people only refer to the Israelites and not the Gentiles as well. If that is the case then universalism is also not true because only the Israelites are saved.
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Take a look at the immediate context of 3:15. There we have the verses you quoted which speak in 3:17a of an unsaved person. Thus the immediate context of v.15 does not refer to believers but the unsaved.

    (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    (16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Compare these verses, which also speaks of God destroying [albeit indirectly] an unsaved person, by giving him to Satan, in order to save him:

    1 Cor. 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    1 Cor. 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    And therefore, in context, 3:15 is also referring to those who are not saved, but become saved "as by fire".

    Therefore 3:15 can & does refer to any & all unsaved persons. The most immediate context proves it beyond any shadow of a doubt.

    Every man's work...shall be revealed by fire; v.13
    the fire shall try every man's work v.13
    If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss v.15
    but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. v.15

    Paul said "every man", not "every saint", not "every believer", not "every church member", not "every Christian", not "everyone of us", and not "every labourer", etc.

    1 Cor.13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing...
    4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
    8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away...
    13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  14. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor 3:5-15 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

    6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

    7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

    8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

    9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

    10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


    I see tremendous confusion about this text.

    The "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble" are the converts a TEACHER (Paul, and Apollos for example), have "built", by God's increase.

    So those that Apollos converted, and others "watered" by God's increase, will be tried. Some of those converts will fail judgement, BUT Apollos will still be saved. The teacher will also receive a reward for those converts that passed the trial by fire.
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Both versions are wrong. I don't know if there is a word for "might" in Greek but that is irrelevant. The word translated "might be saved" Jn 3:17 is σώζω/sozo it is in the subjunctive mood. The subjunctive mood is the mood of potential and probability. If Jesus had intended to say "will be" or "shall be" saved the word σώζω/sozo would in the indicative mood as it is in Matthew 10:22
    This is the heterodox ploy. If any scripture clearly refutes universalism then they have a pet verse which they think trumps it. The words of Paul cannot trump the words of Jesus. So uni proof texts, written by the apostles, must be interpreted so as not to contradict the words of Jesus. Not the wrong way around as has been done here.
    Irrelevant assumption and analogy. Anybody can concoct an analogy which will "prove" almost anything
    Wrong again the word translated "might be fulfilled" is in the subjunctive mood. If Jesus had intended to say "shall be fulfilled" the word would be in the indicative mood as it is in John 19:36.
    There is not one verse which says that anyone will be saved after death! That is uni assumption/presupposition.
    There is not one verse which says Jesus' body was destroyed. Copy/paste from your pet website deleted.
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You should have read and addressed all of my post. By quoting and addressing only a few words out of what I said out-of-context makes it appear I said something I did not say. Since you did not extend me the common courtesy of reasonably addressing my post I will I will do the same.
     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Irrelevant, Jesus directly addressed the disciples in Lk 16:1.
    Luke 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
    Even as you quoted Lk 16:14 "And the Pharisees also...heard" Jesus was talking to the disciples and the Pharisees overheard Him. And Lk 17:1 Jesus is still talking to the disciples.
    Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
    And even if Jesus was talking to the Pharisees the story of Lazarus and the rich man is not in the form of a parable. The Greek word παραβολή/parabolé, transliterated "parable" in English, literally means "throw beside". In a parable one thing, that is known/understood, is compared or contrasted with another thing, which is not known/understood. For example, comparing.
    Matthew 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
    Contrasting.
    Matthew 25:1-2
    1) Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
    2) And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
    There is no comparing/contrasting in Lk 16:19-31. It might be some other literary device or figure of speech but it is not a parable
    Your objection is irrelevant. Whether the Jews were right or wrong does not make any difference to my argument. The Jewish Encyclopedia is a historical record of the Jews written by the Jews and records what the Jews believed about the Hebrew scriptures. If somebody thinks they were wrong then they better have a bunch of credit hours in Hebrew and have some credible, verifiable, historical evidence, emphasis on historical. That does not mean some copy/pastes from random websites.. Just because their beliefs contradicts some heterodox groups today does not make them wrong.
    .....And when Jesus taught about 'eternal punishment,""hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die,""there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" etc. that agreed with the Jewish understanding of hell.
     
  18. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    I did.
    Please let us know what appears to be something you didn't say.
    As I posted, I find very low credibility for any called "church fathers" so don't waste time posting their opinions.... unless the fact that their opinions were wrong is your point.
    The people you were quoting, that agree with the Scriptures stating "the dead know not anything", are correct.
    Your attempts to twist figurative texts to contradict them fails.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Thank you for this unsupported opinion, I did not ask for that.
    More unsupported opinion. Have you been dead then returned and can speak from your own experience what happens? No you have not, you can only talk about it from this side.
    As a neurosurgeon, I did not believe in the phenomenon of near-death experiences. I grew up in a scientific world, the son of a neurosurgeon. I followed my father’s path and became an academic neurosurgeon, teaching at Harvard Medical School and other universities. I understand what happens to the brain when people are near death, and I had always believed there were good scientific explanations for the heavenly out-of-body journeys described by those who narrowly escaped death.
    ...
    Very early one morning four years ago, I awoke with an extremely intense headache. Within hours, my entire cortex—the part of the brain that controls thought and emotion and that in essence makes us human—had shut down.
    ...
    When I entered the emergency room that morning, my chances of survival in anything beyond a vegetative state were already low. They soon sank to near nonexistent. For seven days I lay in a deep coma, my body unresponsive, my higher-order brain functions totally offline.
    ...
    All the chief arguments against near-death experiences suggest that these experiences are the results of minimal, transient, or partial malfunctioning of the cortex. My near-death experience, however, took place not while my cortex was malfunctioning, but while it was simply off. This is clear from the severity and duration of my meningitis, and from the global cortical involvement documented by CT scans and neurological examinations. According to current medical understanding of the brain and mind, there is absolutely no way that I could have experienced even a dim and limited consciousness during my time in the coma, much less the hyper-vivid and completely coherent odyssey I underwent.
    My Proof of Heaven
     
  20. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    The context is not irrelevant. The Pharisees were there, and were SPECIFICALLY addressed by the parable of the rich man and Lazarus; Luke 16:14-15 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them,
    You have already conceded that the previous story, verses 1-13 is a parable. It starts with an IDENTICAL phrase, and is in an IDENTICAL format. Your point is irrelevant due to inaccuracy.

    [quote-Der Alter]The Jewish Encyclopedia is a historical record of the Jews written by the Jews and records what the Jews believed about the Hebrew scriptures.[/quote]Only some. In MANY cases their teachings don't match Scripture, or Jesus' teachings. They are only credible as an evidence of error, or as evidence of THEIR unique beliefs.
     
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