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Featured Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by surrender1, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. Eternal Torment

    33 vote(s)
    42.3%
  2. Annihilation

    16 vote(s)
    20.5%
  3. Universal Reconciliation

    10 vote(s)
    12.8%
  4. Probably annihilation but still hopeful of universal reconciliation

    5 vote(s)
    6.4%
  5. Not sure

    10 vote(s)
    12.8%
  6. Other

    4 vote(s)
    5.1%
  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I find very low credibility for the objections of anyone who posts their own unsupported opinions while presenting no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence. When the Jews consider a Hebrew text factual that is good enough for me. Your proof text "the dead know not anything" is out-of-context, therefore false.
    .....The next clause in your proof text "neither have they any more a reward, " if your interpretation is correct, that means even the righteous who die, "neither have they any more reward."
     
  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Wrong again. Try actually reading Lk 16, there is a parabolic format.
    Vss. 1-8 Ordinary events from life. A steward is accused of wasting his master's money and might lose his position. He does several dishonest things to obtain money for when he does lose his position.
    vss. 9-13 are instructions how to prepare for the kingdom of God

    Luke 16:9-13
    (9) And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
    (10) He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
    (11) If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
    (12) And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
    (13) No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
    Please note the parabolic pairings.
    v. 10 faithful in what is least is faithful also in much vs. unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
    vs. 11 unrighteous mammon vs. the true riches
    vs. 12 not faithful with another man's property who shall give you that which is your own. The opposite is implied If you are faithful with another man's property you shall be given that which is your own
    vs. 13 No servant can serve two masters:
    either he will hate the one, and love the other;
    he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
    Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
    Where is a similar parabolic pairing in the story of Lazarus and the rich man?
     
  3. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Wrong again.
    You have no Scripture that defines "parabolic format", rather we are given parables of various "formats".
    We can look at those parables, and see lots of similarity between them, and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
    First, the example you are trying to ignore, the 2 parables in Luke 16 begin with EXACTLY THE SAME OPENING STATEMENT; "there was a certain rich man".
    Second, the parable of the Prodigal Son has an identical format to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, in that the opening sentences are not quite identical, but very similar. And then the body of the parable recounts the elements of the parable WITHOUT any explanatory commentary.
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Verses 16-17 of the context immediately following v.15 speaks of those who are not saved in 17a:

    (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    (16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Compare:

    1 Cor.5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    And therefore, in context, 3:15 is also referring to those who are not saved, but become saved "as by fire".

    Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context both support the view that v.15 refers to the unsaved being saved.

    Therefore 1 Cor.3:15 supports Scriptural Universalism, that all will be saved.

    1 Cor.13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing...
    4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
    8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away...
    13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I have ignored nothing. The only thing you are looking at is vs. 16. No the parable of the Prodigal Son does not have an identical format to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
    .....Unlike Lazarus everything in the prodigal son story are common events in this life. The son gets his inheritance, goes away, squanders his money, becomes destitute, returns home and is welcomed by his father which is objected to by the stay at home brother. There is nothing other worldly, unusual, unknown or not understood. Everything would have been familiar to Jesus' audience.
    .....In Lk 16 Jesus' audience was familiar only with the events in the first 4 vss., a beggar begging, a rich man living in luxury and both dying. Here this story differs from the prodigal son, everything which follows was definitely other worldly, unusual, unknown and not understood.

    Luke 16:19-22
    (19) "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
    (20) At his gate was laid [actually thrown] a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
    (21) and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
    (22) "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
    In the prodigal son I'm not sure what you mean by "without any explanatory commentary?"
    .....The second and third stories in chap. 15 have a copulative word or statement linking them with the previous story.
    First parable,

    Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
    Second parable
    NIV Luke 15:8
    (8) "Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Doesn't she light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it?
    Third parable
    NIV Luke 15:11
    (11) Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons.
    Chap. 16 First story
    Luke 16:1 Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions.
    Second story, no copulative word or statement.
    Luk 16:19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
     
  6. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    No. Verses 16 and 17 are a new topic Paul is explaining to the Corinthians. Paul is warning them to keep themselves pure, since they are the temple of God.

    No.
    1 Cor 5 is yet another different subject, NOT a context related to 3:15. The 5th chapter is dealing with Church discipline, and concludes;
    1 Cor 5:11-13 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
    No, it refers to any teacher.
    It is TEACHERS that are building on foundations, with God providing increase.
    It is the work of the teacher that is being tested by fire in the next few verses.
     
  7. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Certainly it does.
    They both begin with similar phrasing;
    Luke 15:11 A certain man had two sons .. Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man ...

    Both parables discuss a fictional situation from which a lesson is being taught.
    In both cases, the point of the parable is revealed FIRST, then the parable is told.
    In both cases, the Pharisees are the target;
    Luke 15:2-5 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. 3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
    Luke 16:14-18 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

     
  8. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

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    The verses are pretty clear and the issue here is interpretation of those verses. It's interesting to me that we can read the same verses but then draw two different ideas from them. Let's take a look. Starting at verse 11. You are correct that no man refers to everyone. But look at the broader context of what Paul is saying here. What was the problem? The people were divided between Paul and Apollos. He was challenging the people because if their division. He was saying it doesn't matter which leader does what.

    When someone says, “I belong to Paul,” and someone else says, “I belong to Apollos,” aren’t you acting like people without the Spirit?After all, what is Apollos? What is Paul? They are servants who helped you to believe. Each one had a role given to them by the Lord:I planted, Apollos watered, but God made it grow.Because of this, neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but the only one who is anything is God who makes it grow.The one who plants and the one who waters work together, but each one will receive their own reward for their own labor.We are God’s coworkers, and you are God’s field, God’s building.I laid a foundation like a wise master builder according to God’s grace that was given to me, but someone else is building on top of it. Each person needs to pay attention to the way they build on it. - 1 Corinthians 3:4-10 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 3:4-10 - Common English Bible

    He says he laid the foundation and the only foundation that works is Jesus Christ. You get that I know. Since people build on that they need to be careful how they build. Build on what? Jesus Christ. If you do not build on Christ you have no foundation. There is no other one. You may build poorly on it and your work might burn up but you will be saved in the end cause you built on Christ.

    The unbeliever has no foundation. They are not building on Christ. Paul was the master worker. Apollos built on Paul's work or laying the foundation of Jesus Christ. An unbeliever cannot build anything because they have no foundation. Remember what Jesus said. You can build on a rock or sand. Jesus is the chief corner Stone the Rick if offense. There is no one else. If you do not build on him it doesn't matter what work you build. The one who is saved in this passage is one who built on Christ but built poorly. The unbeliever does not build on Christ. Therefore he is not the person referred to in this passage.

    God will destroy the person who defiles the temple. We are the temple of God. Not the unbeliever. But God will bring to ruin those who ruin the temple. Again he is referring to believe here not unbelievers. Look what he says

    When someone says, “I belong to Paul,” and someone else says, “I belong to Apollos,” aren’t you acting like people without the Spirit?So then, no one should brag about human beings. Everything belongs to you—Paul, Apollos, Cephas, the world, life, death, things in the present, things in the future—everything belongs to you,but you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God. - 1 Corinthians 3:4,21-23 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 3:4, 1 Corinthians 3:21-23 - Common English Bible

    We belong to Christ. Those who have the foundation of Christ.

    I'm beginning to see the problem here. The taking of scripture out of context. A lot of folks do it.

    I Cor. 15 is also talking to and about believers not unbelievers.

    Brothers and sisters, I want to call your attention to the good news that I preached to you, which you also received and in which you stand.You are being saved through it if you hold on to the message I preached to you, unless somehow you believed it for nothing. - 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 - Common English Bible

    The believers are those that heard and received the message and are being saved.
    The verses you mentioned are talking about the resurrection of the dead. Some of the believers were questioning the resurrection. He says in verse 17 that their faith again BELIEVERS is in vain if there is no resurrection. The verses 20-23 say Adam brought death and Christ brought the resurrection. Note verse 23 which clarifies the order and who is raised. Those who belong to Christ. For not all belong to Christ. "Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but those who do the will of my Father".

    I Cor. 15 is not speaking of the salvation of all but of the resurrection. Note verse 58.
    Thanks be to God, who gives us this victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!As a result of all this, my loved brothers and sisters, you must stand firm, unshakable, excelling in the work of the Lord as always, because you know that your labor isn’t going to be for nothing in the Lord. - 1 Corinthians 15:57-58 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:57-58 - Common English Bible

    He has addressed his brothers and sisters in Christ not unbelievers. Their work for the Lord is not in vain for there IS a resurrection for them. There is hope for the believer. It is not talking about unbelievers.
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Christ is the foundation for the entire world, not just believers. He died for all.

    How they respond to Him determines how they are building on the foundation.

    Some build with gold, silver & precious stones. Others build with wood hay & stubble:

    "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;" (1 Corinthians 3:12)

    Silver indicates the redemption of Christ. Those who build with silver, build with faith in Christ as their redeemer. They are believers.

    Those who build with wood, hay & stubble build with things that will be destroyed by fire since they are not works of faith, but works of iniquity:

    Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Their sinful works will be burned up, yet they will be saved, yet as by fire:

    1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


    1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    The one who is destroyed (v.17) refers back to the one who "shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (v.15). Verse 17 explains verse 15 of the immediate context. Similarly, in chapter 5, we have one destroyed in order for him to be saved:

    1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


    1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Jesus is the Light that lightens every man (Jn.1:9). Human beings were made in God's image & likeness. They are temples made by God:

    Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens...
    24...[the] Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;...25...
    he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;... 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God...


    1 Cor.13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing...
    4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
    8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away...
    13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "AS in Adam ALL die
    SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
    BUT each in his own order:

    1. Christ the Firstfruit;

    2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

    3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
    up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
    have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
    For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
    under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
    IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.)."

    "...But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
    rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
    different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
    are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

    1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death.

    2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.

    3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
    kingdom."

    "It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
    thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
    lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
    end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
    ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
    all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
    24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
    are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
    a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
    is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
    anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
    something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
    refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
    will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
    will never end (Luke 1:33)."

    "Four statements in this passage indicate that the
    words "then cometh the end" refer to the making alive
    of an end order.

    1. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made
    alive. But each in his own order" (vs. 22. 23).

    2. "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).
    It is the making alive of ALL that will abolish death. As long
    as any remain dead, death has not been abolished.

    3. "When all things have been subjected unto the Son" (vs.
    27, 28). The dead must ALL be made alive if all are to be sub-
    jected unto the Son. The only exception in this subjection is
    God the Father.

    4. "That God may be All in all" (vs. 28). This requires that
    all be made alive. As long as any remain dead God cannot be
    ALL in ALL, for He is not the God of the dead (Luke 20:37, 38)."

    As in Adam all die
     
  11. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

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    Clement none of that says everyone gets saved in the end. Look at the following.

    If Christ hasn’t been raised, then your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins,and what’s more, those who have died in Christ are gone forever.If we have a hope in Christ only in this life, then we deserve to be pitied more than anyone else. - 1 Corinthians 15:17-19 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:17-19 - Common English Bible

    Who's faith is worthless? The believers for what reason? They are still in their sins. Those who have dies IN CHRIST. The unbeliever has not died in Christ. It's those who had faith that are resurrected here. WE have hope Paul says. Who is we? We are the ones who had faith and if WE only have hope in this life then we are to be pitied. But We do not only have hope in this life.

    I repeat myself here that it is those IN CHRIST.

    Each event will happen in the right order: Christ, the first crop of the harvest, then those who belong to Christ at his coming, - 1 Corinthians 15:23 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:23 - Common English Bible

    It is those that belong to Christ that are raised and saved. Not everyone.

    Note that Paul prefaces this passage with the following.

    Brothers and sisters, I want to call your attention to the good news that I preached to you, which you also received and in which you stand.You are being saved through it if you hold on to the message I preached to you, unless somehow you believed it for nothing. - 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 - Common English Bible

    Who is he talking to? Brothers and Sisters who received the gospel he preached. They stand in that good news. So he is not talking to or about everyone, but believers only. Only to those who heard and stand. What does he say? They are being saved through that IF they hold on to the message. He doesn't say they are saved no matter what happens. Only if they hold on. If they do they are in Christ at raised at the resurrection. Remember Paul is countering that some in the CHURCH we're saying there is no resurrection. He is NOT talking to or about unbelievers here.

    All that you posted has nothing to do with saving all people in the end saved or unsaved.

    There are other passages in scripture of course that talk about the resurrection of all people to face judgement. But this particular passage is talking to and about believers only. It cannot be used to say everyone gets saved in the end.
     
  12. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    BUT! ONLY those who accept him, AND his commandments, derive ANY benefit!! All that do NOT believe "are condemned already";
    John 3:14-21 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


    No. You are ignoring the "elephant in the room"!! The first question is IF they accept him as the corner!!
    Matt 21:42-44 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

    Jesus made the ratio utterly clear; "MANY" versus "FEW". Most people reject him as the corner stone, so ANYTHING they "build" is worthless ... NO value ... a "house built on sand".

    Eph 2:11-12 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    Eph 2:19-20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


    The theory you are attempting to teach is NOT Biblical.
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is no "might" in a number of translations, such as, for a couple examples:

    "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (Jn.3:17, NIV)

    ""For God did not send His Son into the world so that He should judge the world, but so that the world SHALL be saved through Him." (Jn.3:17, Analytical Literal Translation)

    The word "may" or "might" also occurs here where there is no doubt that God will become "All in all":

    "And when all is subjected to him, then the Son shall be subject to him who subjected all things to him, that God might be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28)

    There is likewise no doubt that the world will be saved through Christ.

    "If they heard this phrase "God sent rain clouds so that it might rain," they would have taken it to mean that it would definitely rain, and that God sent the cloud to make that happen."

    "...Mat 13:35 that it might be fulfilled that was spoken through the prophet, saying, `I will open in similes my mouth, I will utter things having been hidden from the foundation of the world.'

    "Just my opinion but the "might's" are pretty much will."

    John 3:17 (Might Be?)

    Everyone who doesn't believe is condemned (v.18), which includes you & everyone else who was once an unbeliever. Clearly being condemned (or judged) did not keep you or them from being saved. Everyone will believe, either in this life or after. So all will be saved.

    The word for perish (Jn.3:16) is used in Scripture for the "lost" sheep & coin that were later found. Also Jesus body that was "destroyed" & raised 3 days later.

    Jesus seeks the lost till He finds them:

    "8 “Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins[a] and loses one. Doesn’t she light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.’ 10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” (Lk.15:8-10)

    The word "eternal" (aionion), transliterated into English as eonian, and the noun eon (Hebrew olam), are often used in Scripture & ancient writings of finite duration, or of an age (future or past) or the world to come.

    Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

    I came across this quote recently from a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

    "...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.”

    Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This passage is not talking about people building upon the foundation of Christ "gold, silver, precious stones, wood hay, stubble" with their works, as in 1 Corinthians 3:12-17. They are different epistles, different contexts & different subjects:

    1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    Compare:

    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12, KJV)
    And lo, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to each as his work shall be; (Rev.22:12, YLT)

    Jeremiah 17:10
    "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

    Matthew 16:27
    For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

    Revelation 2:23
    Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

    Romans 2:6-11 Who will render to every man according to his deeds…

    In Mt 25:31-46...the righteous & the unrighteous are distinguished by their works.

    James says faith without works is dead:

    James 2:20b-26 faith without works is dead 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    The one who is destroyed (v.17) refers back to the one who "shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (v.15). Verse 17 explains verse 15 of the immediate context. Similarly, in chapter 5, we have one destroyed in order for him to be saved:

    1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


    1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Jesus is the Light that lightens every man (Jn.1:9). Human beings were made in God's image & likeness. They are temples made by God:

    Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens...
    24...[the] Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;...25...
    he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;... 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God...


    1 Cor.13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing...
    4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
    8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away...
    13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  15. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    The context doesn't hinge on "might", the context hinges on "condemned already", and they are ONLY receive eternal life..... if they believe.
    Your continued repetition of your misunderstanding of "All in All" isn't changing anything. God being "All in All" is discussing God's authority over EVERYTHING ... including Jesus. It has NOTHING to do with canceling God's own promise that the wicked will be destroyed!!

    There is no CHANCE that "the world" will be saved through Christ! The world is going to perish, burn up, be destroyed by fire, just like the world before the flood perished by water.
    2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


    The believer absolutely MUST come out of the world, and be separate!!
    2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
    James 4:4
    Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    All in Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22) does not refer to "believers only".

    1 Corinthians 15:23-28 does not refer to "believers only".

    Your post didn't address a single comment in my post.

    Mostly it just regurgitated what you said last time.

    "He who has ears to hear, let him hear".

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  17. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    This passage disproves your claim;
    "Christ is the foundation for the entire world, not just believers. He died for all." ONLY those who ACCEPT Jesus BUILD on Jesus!!
    You didn't start soon enough in the context;
    1 Cor 3:6-12 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
    9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;


    The passage is talking about TEACHERS who build, by adding believers, to Christ's body, with Christ as the foundation.
     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mere opinion added to the words of scripture doesn't count as proof.
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So? No one denies belief is required for salvation. Universalism accepts that & is in perfect harmony with it. While you were in unbelief you were condemned too! How'd that work out for ya?

    That would be redundant since the context already speaks of God's authority over everything. God living IN everyone is completely different, obviously.

    Destruction is for salvation in 1 Cor.5:5.

    See above re destroyed. My last post also which you ignored.


    Nothing there denies universalism.

    Doesn't deny universalism.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  20. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Univarsalism denies God's statement that the wicked will be destroyed. That won't work out for ya.
    It isn't redundant. Paul states that Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God, THAT (meaning the RESULT IS) "God is all in all".
    ONLY those who OBEY God will have God living in them!!
    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
     
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