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iwbswiaihl2

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And with that understanding of your two friends if they were Christians before as you say, you have invented another unpardonable sin. Having stated yourself the infallibility of the scriptures you know that isn't so. You should know that all the sins of the believers were paid for at Calvary and none are charged to their account. That is why Paul wrote in Romans 4:5-8
But to him who http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1does not work but believes on Him who justifies http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn2the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn3describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn4are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

V8 the Lord does not impute, charge to their account, their sin, because He paid their sin debt. The outward man dies daily but the inward man is renewed day by day. The saints are in Christ seated in heaven in Him in their position, and one day will be there in their person. There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.


http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn5 http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1

http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref2http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref3

http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref4
 
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OzSpen

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iwbs,
And with that understanding of your two friends if they were Christians before as you say, you have invented another unpardonable sin. Having stated yourself the infallibility of the scriptures you know that isn't so
Please don't create a straw man fallacy out of what I wrote. I showed you clearly from Hebrews 6:4-6 that there is no possibility of repentance after apostasy.

I exegeted the infallible Scripture to come to my conclusions, so please don't accuse me of inventing another unpardonable sin. I'm totally consistent with the inerrant Scripture in my understanding.

We cannot have a rational conversation when you engage in using a logical fallacy like you did against me here.

I've being absolutely biblical in obtaining this theology from Heb. 6:4-6.

Oz
 
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Petruchio

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iwbs,

Please don't create a straw man fallacy out of what I wrote. I showed you clearly from Hebrews 6:4-6 that there is no possibility of repentance after apostasy.

This is the heresy of the Manicheans, actually, which the Latins had trouble with, and therefore they started to argue that Hebrews ought to be put out of the canon, back during the 4th century.

Obviously many Christians have "apostatized" quite severely, and yet have come back into the faith. I myself went through a very dark time in my time, a terrible time, which brought me near death. Fortunately, "all things work unto good for them who love God, who are the called according to His purpose."

Hebrews 6:4-6 would most likely be better applied to a man like Judas. He, with the rest of the disciples, were filled with the Spirit, and shared the Spirit’s power in casting out devils and other miracles (Mat 10:1-8). Yet, Judas was never accounted a true and regenerated believer. He was a Devil from the beginning (John 6:70), and a greedy thief on top of that (John 12:6), yet this man was still used by the Holy Spirit, despite being a “son of perdition.” So Judas tasted and partook of the Spirit, performing miracles, and yet was no true believer, but was, as the scripture in Matthew concludes, one of those whom the Lord says “I never knew you.” Not that he had been known and rendered himself unknown, but that he was never actually known at all. And that is the case with all apostates everywhere they are spoken of in the scripture. They are “never known,” or “not of us,” but never “once of us,” as you falsely believe.

I exegeted the infallible Scripture to come to my conclusions,

Your conclusions are always aimed at puffing up man, putting the power of salvation and the glory of it into his own willing and working, but we say that it is God who works in us "both to will and to do of His good pleasure," and that if God has "begun a good work in us," He will see it through to completion (Php 2:13, 1:6).
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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So its a straw man to quote the Lord when He said the only sin not to be forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Matt 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn2but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Does this say that there is only one sin that will not be forgiven or not? If so, then your understanding of Heb 6 cannot be right if you say that a Christian can commit apostasy and not repent. The scripture of Hebrews is correct, its your interpretation that has to be wrong or isn't it. That seems not to be a strawman to me.


But I am willing to agree to disagree. Have a good night.http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn3 http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1

http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref2
 
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DeaconDean

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DeaconDean,
I do hope you mean assessment and not accessment. Accessment is not a word in my dictionary.

Also you wrote, 'Now, regarding the Hebrews passage, I'm sure your familiar with Kittles?' His name is spelled Kittel.

You knew what I meant. If your going to nit-pick, my discussion with you will end quickly.

Fair enough?


Funny, my research shows it completely in agreement. Even with what is laid out in The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

And though your research may differ from mine, and no, I have not read it. Gill's commentary is perfect harmony. Even with Pink's.


You never addressed any of the other questions I posed either. So is it strange I ignore yours?

Hello pot, this is kettle.


I never argued aginst that.

However, "pisteuwn" (Jn. 3:16) is listed as "present active nominative. Which means currently believing.

pisteuwn
pisteuOn
G4100
vp Pres Act Nom Sg m

one-BELIEVING
one-believing

So again, I disagree. Whosoever believes, at the moment of salvation.​

And unless I'm mistaken, the same word is used in Jn. 3:36:​

pisteuwn
pisteuOn

G4100
vp Pres Act Nom Sg m
one-BELIEVING

one-believing

Which brings us back to the parable of the prodigal son. At what point, while he lived "riotous living", at what point did he cease to be his father's son?




Here again, Once Saved, you can never be saved again. You can re-dedicate your life, but you can never be saved again.​

And as far as "perseverance" is concerned, QWho comes looking for the lost sheep?​

Who is it that chastizes us when we misbehave?​

So our "perseverance isn't up to us, God will see to it we come "back-in-line".​


We come to an abrupt fork in the road. I see your point, however, I see it as dependant more on what you do, rather than what God will do.​

As I see it, your position on the vine, shows to me that you do not accept the Baptist view that has been accepted since Bapists were formed.​

The 2nd London Baptist Confession says concerning the scriptures:​

"The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience."​


If Jesus said no man can pluck us from the father's hand, and yet, through our disbelief, or lack thereof, we (man or woman) can take ourselves out of the Father's hand, then the scriptures are "fallible". It contains an error as the scriptures contridict themselves.​

And if it contains errors, contridicts itself, then it is not trustworthy.​

We might as well pick up a copy of "Moby Dick" and call it our "bible" as it is just as reliable.​

Now I know your gonna raise sand because I quote from an American source, and as you have said many, many times before that that does not apply to you, however, in 1833, The New hampshire Baptist Association issued their Confession and in it it says:​

without any mixture of error


So, either the scriptures are correct, and error free as no man, (not even ourselves) can take us from God's hand, or it is in error and we can take ourselves out of His hand.​

And if the later is correct, then I still believe that if one supposedly "apostasizes" then they never had true salvation to begin with and the passage dfrom 1 John 2:19 is absolutely correct.​

So we are at an impass. Either everything I do is soley dependant on God the father working through me (my belief, my fruit, etc, i.e.: Monergistic), or my salvation is completely dependant on me and what I do, not dependant on God. (man centered; Synergistic)​

God Bless​

Till all are one.​
 
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DeaconDean

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Exactly!

Amen!

A man-centered salvation!

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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One of the greatest Baptist theologians wrote:


John Gill, A Body of Doctrinal Divinity, Book VI, Chapter 15: Of The Perseverance of the Saints

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Folks, earlier on, I was poked fun of because I did not supply an answer to:

You provided not one word to refute the content of John 3:36; 6:47 and 15:6, which teach that eternal life is conditional.

As far as Jn. 6:47 is concerned, I see the very same thig I showed before:

pisteuwn
pisteuOn
G4100
vp Pres Act Nom Sg m
one
-BELIEVING
one-believing

Currently believing.

From another source:​

πι¦στεύ¦ω
νpee-styoo-ohn
adv: ...g
adj: a ...g one / who ...
participle present active
nominative singular masculine​

Currently believing.​

Lets look at John 15 for a minute.​

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." -Jn. 15:4-7 (KJV)​

The difference in opinion seems to arise out of the understanding of the word "abide".​

In the Greek, it is defined as:​



In the illustration provided, the word, and the doctrines established by Christ, are a "seed" that is planted.​

On this verse, John Gill comments:​



Building on the word "root" lets also see:


Source

Building on that premise, "root", lets turn back to Mt. 13 and read something there:​

"Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away." -Mt. 13:5-6 (KJV)​

Why did the word not take root in them? It is answered here:​

"But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." -Mt. 13: 20-21 (KJV)​

John Gill explains:​

 
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DeaconDean

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I have always maintained that God has not now nor ever lost anybody. Scripture declares it.

Let me quote from an article, rather a 4 part lecture by S. Lewis Johnson, entitled "Once Saved, Always Saved; or The Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints".


The entire four part article can be downloaded here.

And like it says here:


Source

Christians cannot lose their "eternal life".

Oh yes, we may backslide, sin, bring shame on Jesus and His church, and bring temporal judgements on ourselves, yet not one will be lost.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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OzSpen

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I beg your pardon!
 
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OzSpen

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DeaconDean
Like John 3:36 says: Whoever continues to believe in the Son continues to have eternal life.
 
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DeaconDean

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DeaconDean

That is right, I quoted from the Abstract of Principles, written in 1858 by James Petigru Boyce.

Like John 3:36 says: Whoever continues to believe in the Son continues to have eternal life.

"ὁ πι¦στεύ¦ων εἰς τὸν υἱ¦ὸν ἔ¦χει ζω¦ὴν αἰ¦ώ¦νι¦ον· ὁ δὲ ἀ¦πει¦θῶν τῷ υἱ¦ῷ οὐκ ὄψ¦ε¦ται ζω¦ήν, ἀλλ’ ἡ ὀρ¦γὴ τοῦ θε¦οῦ μέ¦νει ἐπ’ αὐ¦τόν. -Jn. 3:36

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

According to this:

πι¦στεύ¦ων pee-styoo-ohn adv: ...g adj: a ...g one / who ...participle present active nominative singular masculine

It says the one who is currently believing.

Geez man.

There is the proof.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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OzSpen

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It says the one who is continuing to believe, continues to have eternal life- that's the meaning of the Greek present tense.

Didn't you believe that I knew the parsing and meaning of the Greek present tense?

So, eternal security is based on the fact that a person continues to believe in Jesus. It is not a once saved, always saved view, but a perseverance of the saints view - the saints are those who continue to believe. They are not those who once believed and gave up believing? The only guarantee of eternal life is for those who are continuing to believe at the time of death (or at the time of Christ's second coming if it arrives before the believer dies).

Oz
 
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DeaconDean

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It says the one who is continuing to believe, continues to have eternal life- that's the meaning of the Greek present tense.

Currently believing.

As shown above.

Didn't you believe that I knew the parsing and meaning of the Greek present tense?

Never said you didn't.

So, eternal security is based on the fact that a person continues to believe in Jesus.

Again, the man-centered salvation so prevelant in synergism and Arminianism. That which you so proudly taunt.

It is not a once saved, always saved view,

I have shown otherwise.

]quote]but a perseverance of the saints view - the saints are those who continue to believe.[/quote]

So it is impossible for one to backslide, and yet still believe in God?

That is the point I take away from all your posts.

They are not those who once believed and gave up believing? The only guarantee of eternal life is for those who are continuing to believe at the time of death (or at the time of Christ's second coming if it arrives before the believer dies).

Oz

No, according to scripture, 1 Jn. 2:19, if they depart, stop beliving, they never believed in the first place.

Unless you are calling the Apostle John a liar.

Are you?

And from Jesus' own mouth, no man, not even yourself can take yourself out of God's hand. That is, unless Jesus was lying?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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And you really should go back and read K-I-T-T-E-L (did I spell it correct for you?)

You really should go back and read what is said on the Johannine wittings concerning:

IV. pisteuw in John

1. pisteuw as Acceptance of the Message

2. pisteuw eiV and pisteuw with the Dative

Here, I'll help.

Volume VI, p. 222

Do you believe the message about the Savior?

Yes, only once.

Do you believe He is who He says He is?

Yes, only once.

You may backslide, and have to confess your sins, and ask forgiveness, but you were saved when you said yes to the above, and you can't do it again.

You can rededicate your life, but you can't be born again, lose that, (salvation and eternal life) and be born again again.

Sorry, it don't work that way.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Also, you might also want to refresh yourself with K-I-T-T-E-L, (did I spell it correct enough for you, ya'll know how us southern redneck hillbillies er) Volume IV, page 576.


So using your standard, we must therefore conclude that since both Peter and Paul sinned willingly, not once, not twice, but at least three times, they lost their salvation, and thusly were not able to "renew them unto repentance".

But tell me, when Peter and Paul both sinned, did they cease to "abide" in Christ?

Did they cease to "believe" continuously?

Remember, you can "commit apostasy and perish by a willful act of their own."

Who said that?

Was it me?

Hum...

Which bring us right back to the Prodigal Son. At what point did he cease to abide, or believe, or be his father's son, while out in a "riotous living"?

Scriptures, rather Jesus, never said that he did.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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OzSpen

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DeaconDean,

I wrote:
They are not those who once believed and gave up believing? The only guarantee of eternal life is for those who are continuing to believe at the time of death (or at the time of Christ's second coming if it arrives before the believer dies).
Your response:
To what is 1 John 2:19 refer? It states:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us (ESV)
What's the context? 1 Jn 2:18 states,
Children, it is the last hour, as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour (ESV).
It is talking about antichrists in our midst.

That is not the discussion point that I'm addressing I'm talking about people who formerly continued to believe in Jesus and were committed evangelical Christians for a considerable time and who gave up believing in Jesus. They committed apostasy. But you are wanting that to mean that they never believed in the first place. I disagree profoundly! These people did continue to believe for a time and showed fruits of repentance. But then they quit believing (often related to circumstances in their life that left a big negative impact).

The warning to the children of God in 1 John 2 (the chapter to which you refer) is:
From these two verses, we know that:
* 'abide' = menete = Greek present tense verb, which means continuing action, i.e. 'continues to abide';

* 'everyone who practices righteousness', where 'practices' = poiwn (doing) = Greek present tense participle which indicates continuing action, the meaning of which is, 'who continues doing/practising'.

Verse 29 is clear that the children of God (based on v. 28) are those who continue to do/practice righteousness. It is not dealing with those Christians who used to do righteousness.

I am not finding our conversation profitable as you have a presupposition of once saved, always saved, and no matter what I exegete from the Greek text about the continuing action of the Greek verbs, it doesn't make a difference to our conversation.

Bye!

In Christ, Oz
 
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OzSpen

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It is obvious that you don't like correction with your spelling.

I have never said that sinning willingly means apostasy. So you have created a straw man logical fallacy against my views with your example of Peter and Paul. We cannot have a rational conversation when you do this.

Bye, Oz
 
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Petruchio

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This is a pretty desperate and contradictory reply, in my opinion. What do you think an Anti-Christ even is? Is it just that little kid from The Omen? Do you know the definition?

1Jn_2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

An antichrist is anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ. IOW, that is what all apostates do, if not always in word, but in action. Continue with the verse in question:

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
(1Jn 2:18-19)

Obviously, these people were members of the church "they went out from us," but they "were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:" They had continued for a time with the church, had been its members and fellow travellers; however, they were never "of us" from the very beginning. They were not true and regenerated believers, though they appeared to be. Had they been, "they would have continued with us." Thus our position is utterly confirmed.

This is the same theme in Matthew, wherein the false believers crying "Lord, Lord," are cast off, because God "never knew" them, despite their belief that they had believed in the Lord and served Him.

I am not finding our conversation profitable

The problem is on your end, since you do not submit to the scriptures, but only wrest a few to annoy the saints.
 
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OzSpen

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Petruchio,

I submit to the infallible Scriptures, but not your interpretation of them.

Oz

 
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