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DeaconDean
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God Bless you brother, and I hope you and your family had a very blessed and joyous Christmas.
This thread is going nowhere.
Jacobus Arminus taught "prevelent grace".
No one can argue against this. This "prevelent grace" enables men and women to co-operate with God in bringing about their own salvation.
Whether or not you accept "eternal secuity" depends on the camp you side with.
However, scriptures are very clear that once you have been saved, and Jesus places you in the Fathers hands for care, no one, no man, not even yourself can pluck you out of his hand. (cf. Jn. 10:28-29)
If any man or yourself could remove you from His hand, that would make you the "omnipotent" of this universe and not God.
And this is evidenced by the Good Shepherd going out from the ninety and nine and looking for that one lost sheep.
This is also evidenced by the chastening of the Father as illustrated in Heb. 12:5-9.
This issue will not be decided here in discussion. But it is decided already in scripture.
"I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
But alas, seems people, even Christians do not believe this piece of scripture.
Oh well.
To each his own.
Struggle as you will to keep yourself saved, I depend on God:
"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation" -1 Pet. 1:5 (KJV)
I'm done, proceed to debate amongst yourselves.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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Proponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context and totally miss the point that Jesus was making—the very point that got Him crucified!
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” (NASB, 1995)
Here it is in context,
22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. “I and the Father are one.” (NASB, 1995)
In this passage, Jesus is asserting his deity. The importance of the words in verse 28 all but escapes the attention of many readers. Compare these two passages:
Isa. 43:13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?” (NASB, 1995)
Wisdom 3:1. But the souls of the just are in the hand of God,
and no torment shall touch them. (NAB, 1986)
Jesus is telling the Jews that His hand is the hand of God, and that, therefore, He is God! But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to. The point is that it is the hand of God, and being the hand of God there is safety in it. Those who are in the hand of God are in Christ and in Christ is the eternal life—and no where else! Anyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ. Just as we possess the safety of God only while we abide in Christ, we possess the life of Christ only while we abide in Him. Eternal life is Christ’s life and we posses it only in Him. The Greek adjective translated ‘eternal’ modifies the Greek noun translated ‘life’ and thus describes not our possession of the life, but the life itself—the life of Christ that we share with Him when we are in Him.
The context of Isa. 43:13, quoted above, is important to the understanding of that verse and John 10:27-29.
1. But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!
2. “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.
3. “For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.
4. “Since you are precious in My sight, Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
5. “Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west.
6. “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
7. Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
8. Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.
9. All the nations have gathered together So that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, “It is true.”
10. “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God.
13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
14. Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, “For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives, Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice.
15. “I am the LORD, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” (NASB, 1995)
16. Thus says the LORD, Who makes a way through the sea And a path through the mighty waters,
17. Who brings forth the chariot and the horse, The army and the mighty man (They will lie down together and not rise again; They have been quenched and extinguished like a wick):
18. “Do not call to mind the former things, Or ponder things of the past.
19. “Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert.
20. “The beasts of the field will glorify Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people.
21. “The people whom I formed for Myself Will declare My praise.
22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.
23. “You have not brought to Me the sheep of your burnt offerings, Nor have you honored Me with your sacrifices. I have not burdened you with offerings, Nor wearied you with incense.
24. “You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins, You have wearied Me with your iniquities.
25. “I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.
26. “Put Me in remembrance, let us argue our case together; State your cause, that you may be proved right.
27. “Your first forefather sinned, And your spokesmen have transgressed against Me.
28. “So I will pollute the princes of the sanctuary, And I will consign Jacob to the ban and Israel to revilement.” (NASB, 1995)
In spite of all that God did for Israel, and in spite of all of God’s promises to be faithful to Israel, Israel chose to disobey God and became reviled in His sight. The very same thing has been true of countless Christians whom God saved, blessed, and made promises to be faithful to—promises that were conditional upon their faithful abiding in Christ. Indeed, in John 10:28, Jesus made the same promise to His people that God made to His people in Isaiah 43:13, and yet later in the same chapter of Isaiah, we read that many of His people departed from His hand and became reviled in His sight. Christians who choose to remain in the hand of God remain secure in their salvation; Christians who do not choose to remain in the hand of God lose their salvation.
For 1,500 years, Christians believed these passages in the Bible and believed from them and scores of other passages in the Bible that the Christian’s salvation is dependent upon his choosing to remain in the safety of his Father’s hand. This interpretation has continued to be the view of the large majority of Christians down to this day. Indeed, our earliest Baptist forefathers shared this view before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine (perseverance of the saints) that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm.
Accusing Baptists and other Christians of not believing John 10:28-29, just because they have studied it in context and learned what Jesus was really teaching, is absolutely disgusting!
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Deductive Bible Study
Premise = God is absolutely sovereign.
Conclusion = Man can, therefore, do nothing to either secure or lose his salvation.
Premise = Man can do nothing to lose his salvation.
Conclusion = Hebrews 6:4-9 cannot be teaching that a Christian can lose his salvation.
Inductive Bible Study
Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)
Up until the 16th century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm
The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.
The phrase in verse 4, those who have once been enlightened, is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term enlightenment was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term the enlightened one for a person who has been baptized. And the Pe[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, who have gone down into baptism.
The phrase in verse 4, have tasted of the heavenly gift, was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.
The phrase in verse 4, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.
The phrase in verse 5, and have tasted the good word of God, is a clear reference to the Christians experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.
The phrase in verse 5, and the powers of the age to come, is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.
The phrase in verse 6, and then have fallen away, can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.
The phrases in verse 6, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame, tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christianbut who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worseit is impossible to renew them again to repentance. Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore, the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.
Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the authors statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.
Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.
Because of the severity of the Greek word translated impossible in verse 6, some very early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon, but its place in the New Testament Canon is now well established and its warning is stern.
Premise = God is absolutely sovereign.
Conclusion = Man can, therefore, do nothing to either secure or lose his salvation.
Premise = Man can do nothing to lose his salvation.
Conclusion = Hebrews 6:4-9 cannot be teaching that a Christian can lose his salvation.
Inductive Bible Study
Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)
Up until the 16th century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm
The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.
The phrase in verse 4, those who have once been enlightened, is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term enlightenment was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term the enlightened one for a person who has been baptized. And the Pe[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, who have gone down into baptism.
The phrase in verse 4, have tasted of the heavenly gift, was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.
The phrase in verse 4, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.
The phrase in verse 5, and have tasted the good word of God, is a clear reference to the Christians experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.
The phrase in verse 5, and the powers of the age to come, is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.
The phrase in verse 6, and then have fallen away, can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.
The phrases in verse 6, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame, tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christianbut who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worseit is impossible to renew them again to repentance. Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore, the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.
Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the authors statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.
Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.
Because of the severity of the Greek word translated impossible in verse 6, some very early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon, but its place in the New Testament Canon is now well established and its warning is stern.
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My statement in my above post, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term enlightenment was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term the enlightened one for a person who has been baptized, is only part of the evidence that the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews was writing of baptism. The Greek word φωτισθεντας translated in our English Bibles as enlightened is an aorist participle in the passive voice, the cognate noun of which is the Greek word φως meaning light, both literally and figuratively, especially in the Gospel According to John,
John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6. There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
8. He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. (NASB, 1995)
John 8:12. Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life. (NASB, 1995)
In these passages, the NASB has the word Light capitalized because the light is Christ.
Paul, in his Epistle to the Galatians, writes,
Gal. 3:27. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (NASB, 1995)
Therefore, being enlightened, when used figuratively as it is by John, becomes synonymous with being baptized. In baptism, one is clothed with the Light; that is, one is enlightened. Main stream Protestants, as did many of the Early Church Fathers, understand baptized in Gal. 3:27 to be speaking of water baptism; most Baptists understand baptized in Gal. 3:27 to be speaking of spiritual baptism. Either way, understanding the word enlightened in Heb. 6:4 to mean baptized into Christ is the most academically sound interpretation.
John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6. There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
8. He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. (NASB, 1995)
John 8:12. Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life. (NASB, 1995)
In these passages, the NASB has the word Light capitalized because the light is Christ.
Paul, in his Epistle to the Galatians, writes,
Gal. 3:27. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (NASB, 1995)
Therefore, being enlightened, when used figuratively as it is by John, becomes synonymous with being baptized. In baptism, one is clothed with the Light; that is, one is enlightened. Main stream Protestants, as did many of the Early Church Fathers, understand baptized in Gal. 3:27 to be speaking of water baptism; most Baptists understand baptized in Gal. 3:27 to be speaking of spiritual baptism. Either way, understanding the word enlightened in Heb. 6:4 to mean baptized into Christ is the most academically sound interpretation.
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OzSpen
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Cody,
In Christ, Spencer
There are both Arminians and Calvinists in Baptist ranks. I am convinced that there is better language to describe salvation than "eternal security". In my understanding of Scripture, "perseverance of the saints" is a better explanation of Christian salvation.
In Christ, Spencer
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OzSpen
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Deacon Dean,
You wrote:
You thread:
Sincerely, Spencer
You wrote:
Arminius taught "prevenient grace". I hope that that is what you mean.
You thread:
I don't think that it can go anywhere because a discussion of eternal security gets into Calvinism vs Arminianism and there are both camps in the Baptist denomination. We have been told that the place for this discussion is under "Soteriology", so I'm wondering why the eternal security topic was allowed to continue here.
Sincerely, Spencer
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DeaconDean
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Excuse me.
Jacobus Arminus taught "prevenient grace".
No one can argue against this. This "prevenient grace" enables men and women to co-operate with God in bringing about their own salvation.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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Osage Bluestem
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DeaconDean
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With the Calvinistic roots of Baptists, you would think so.
But, if you have read this thread, sadly, you'll see many argue against it.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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OzSpen
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Osage,
I attend a Baptist church where the pastor is not a TULIP Baptist.
Not if it is not taught in the Scriptures. Haven't you heard of free-will Baptists and General Baptists?
I attend a Baptist church where the pastor is not a TULIP Baptist.
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Up until the 16th century, all Christians believed in the conditional security of the believer. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine (perseverance of the saints, the earliest of the various eternal security doctrines) that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm.
Which of the various eternal security doctrines taught by Baptists today do you believe all Baptists should believe in? Should they believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, or the much more popular and more recent doctrine of the preservation of the saints, or in one of the various types of millennial exclusionismforms of eternal security that sprung up in the mid 1800s and continue to be taught today in which it is taught that all Christians will eventually go to heaven, but that that Christians who have sin in their lives will spend a future 1,000 years in Protestant Purgatory, or, even worse, in hell (millennial-exclusion Baptist teachers differ on that issue)?
A careful reading of this thread will reveal that there are numerous passages in the Bible that the Church unanimously believed for 1,500 taught the conditional security of the Christianthat is, conditional upon the Christians continued faith in Christ as opposed to the Christians apostasy from the Christian faith. A careful reading of this thread will also reveal that there are several passages in the Bible that some Baptists claim teach eternal security, but which, when read in context, especially in the Greek New Testament from which they were translated, do not teach that doctrine at all! Indeed, some of these passages, like John 10:27-29, when compared with the parallel passage in Isa. 43:1-28, really teach that the Christians security is conditional upon his continued faithfulness.
John 10:27. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Isa. 43:10. You are My witnesses, declares the LORD, And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
11. I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses, declares the LORD, And I am God.
13. Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?
Notice especially v. 13, Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?
But continue reading the rest of the chapter and what do you find,
22. Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.
And finally,
28. So I will pollute the princes of the sanctuary, And I will consign Jacob to the ban and Israel to revilement.
The New Revised Standard Version translates v. 28,
28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling.
Being delivered to utter destruction does not sound like eternal security to me!
And, so it is with all of the proof texts for the doctrine of eternal security. Should Baptists believe in a doctrine that was first conceived in the 16th century; or should they believe in the doctrine taught by Christ and His apostles, and the Early Church Fathers whom it pleased God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Canon?
(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995, unless otherwise noted)
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sheina
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Eternal security is the Bible confidence that every born again believer has perfect, complete, eternal salvation in Jesus Christ. As soon as a sinner receives Christ, he possesses full, unending salvation. To have Christ is to have a secure position before God (1 John 5:10-13).
How We Can Be Sure True Christians Are Eternally Secure?
1. Because of the terms used to describe salvation:
Eternal life (John 3:15-16; 10:28; 1 John 5:11)
Full assurance (Hebrews 6:11; Colossians 2:2)
Strong consolation (Hebrews 6:18)
Hope...sure and steadfast (Hebrews 6:19)
2. Because of what we are. All of the following are spoken of in the present tense; this is the present condition of each true believer:
Forgiven (Romans 4:7; 1 John 2:12)
Justified (Romans 5:1,9; Titus 3:7)
Reconciled (Romans 5:10)
Risen with Christ (Romans 6:3-6; Colossians 3:1-2)
A child of God forever (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:4-7; 1 John 3:1)
Sanctified in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:2)
New creation (2 Corinthians 5:17)
Accepted in the beloved (Ephesians 1:6)
Saved (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9)
Light in the Lord (Ephesians 5:8)
Made fit for Heaven (Colossians 1:12)
Complete in Him (Colossians 2:10)
Citizens of Heaven (Philippians 3:20)
Children of light (1 Thessalonians 5:5)
Elect (1 Peter 1:2)
Born again (1 Peter 1:2,23)
Sanctified once for all (Hebrews 10:10)
Perfected forever (Hebrews 10:14)
Passed from death unto life (1 John 3:14)
3. Because of where we are:
In God's family (Galatians 3:26; 1 John 3:2)
Brought near (Ephesians 2:13)
In the heavenlies with Christ (Ephesians 2:5-6)
Translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Colossians 1:13)
4. Because of what we have:
Eternal life (John 3:15-16)
Peace with God (Romans 5:1)
An Intercessor in Heaven (Romans 8:34)
All spiritual blessings (Ephesians 1:3)
Forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14; 2:13)
Sealing of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:12-14)
Access to God (Ephesians 2:18)
Everlasting consolation (2 Thessalonians 2:16)
Eternal glory (2 Timothy 2:10)
Eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12)
Mercy (1 Peter 2:10)
An Advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1-2)
5. Because of what is past:
Condemnation (John 5:24)
The law of sin and death (Romans 8:2)
Death and wrath (Colossians 3:3; Romans 6:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)
Night and darkness (1 Thessalonians 5:5)
6. Because of our promises:
Never perish (John 10:27-28)
Shall never die (John 11:26)
The glory of God (Romans 5:2) This speaks of Christ's kingdom glory.
Shall be saved from wrath (Romans 5:9)
Glorious liberty of the children of God (Romans 8:21)
Redemption of the body (Romans 8:23-24; Philippians 3:21)
Predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:28-29)
Cannot be separated from God's love (Romans 8:31-39)
God shall confirm you unto the end (1 Corinthians 1:8)
He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:6)
Shall appear with Christ in glory (Colossians 3:3-4)
Delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:10)
Not appointed to wrath but to salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9)
Eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15)
Incorruptible inheritance (1 Peter 1:4)
Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible (David W. Cloud): Eternal Security
How We Can Be Sure True Christians Are Eternally Secure?
1. Because of the terms used to describe salvation:
Eternal life (John 3:15-16; 10:28; 1 John 5:11)
Full assurance (Hebrews 6:11; Colossians 2:2)
Strong consolation (Hebrews 6:18)
Hope...sure and steadfast (Hebrews 6:19)
2. Because of what we are. All of the following are spoken of in the present tense; this is the present condition of each true believer:
Forgiven (Romans 4:7; 1 John 2:12)
Justified (Romans 5:1,9; Titus 3:7)
Reconciled (Romans 5:10)
Risen with Christ (Romans 6:3-6; Colossians 3:1-2)
A child of God forever (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:4-7; 1 John 3:1)
Sanctified in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:2)
New creation (2 Corinthians 5:17)
Accepted in the beloved (Ephesians 1:6)
Saved (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9)
Light in the Lord (Ephesians 5:8)
Made fit for Heaven (Colossians 1:12)
Complete in Him (Colossians 2:10)
Citizens of Heaven (Philippians 3:20)
Children of light (1 Thessalonians 5:5)
Elect (1 Peter 1:2)
Born again (1 Peter 1:2,23)
Sanctified once for all (Hebrews 10:10)
Perfected forever (Hebrews 10:14)
Passed from death unto life (1 John 3:14)
3. Because of where we are:
In God's family (Galatians 3:26; 1 John 3:2)
Brought near (Ephesians 2:13)
In the heavenlies with Christ (Ephesians 2:5-6)
Translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Colossians 1:13)
4. Because of what we have:
Eternal life (John 3:15-16)
Peace with God (Romans 5:1)
An Intercessor in Heaven (Romans 8:34)
All spiritual blessings (Ephesians 1:3)
Forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14; 2:13)
Sealing of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:12-14)
Access to God (Ephesians 2:18)
Everlasting consolation (2 Thessalonians 2:16)
Eternal glory (2 Timothy 2:10)
Eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12)
Mercy (1 Peter 2:10)
An Advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1-2)
5. Because of what is past:
Condemnation (John 5:24)
The law of sin and death (Romans 8:2)
Death and wrath (Colossians 3:3; Romans 6:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)
Night and darkness (1 Thessalonians 5:5)
6. Because of our promises:
Never perish (John 10:27-28)
Shall never die (John 11:26)
The glory of God (Romans 5:2) This speaks of Christ's kingdom glory.
Shall be saved from wrath (Romans 5:9)
Glorious liberty of the children of God (Romans 8:21)
Redemption of the body (Romans 8:23-24; Philippians 3:21)
Predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:28-29)
Cannot be separated from God's love (Romans 8:31-39)
God shall confirm you unto the end (1 Corinthians 1:8)
He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:6)
Shall appear with Christ in glory (Colossians 3:3-4)
Delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:10)
Not appointed to wrath but to salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9)
Eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15)
Incorruptible inheritance (1 Peter 1:4)
Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible (David W. Cloud): Eternal Security
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OzSpen
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PrincetonGuy,
Thank you for your demonstration that conditional eternal security was the teaching of the church (in general) for the first 16 centuries of its existence.
Roger T. Forster & V. Paul Marston in God's Strategy in Human History (1973. Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers Inc.) demonstrate this with some excellent exegetical and historical studies. I located the Appendix to this volume online, "Early Teaching on God's and Man's Will". See p. 15f of this link for examples of quotations from the early church fathers to demonstrate your point
Sincerely, Spencer
Thank you for your demonstration that conditional eternal security was the teaching of the church (in general) for the first 16 centuries of its existence.
Roger T. Forster & V. Paul Marston in God's Strategy in Human History (1973. Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers Inc.) demonstrate this with some excellent exegetical and historical studies. I located the Appendix to this volume online, "Early Teaching on God's and Man's Will". See p. 15f of this link for examples of quotations from the early church fathers to demonstrate your point
Sincerely, Spencer
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Osage Bluestem
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Actually The bible clearly teaches eternal security. The Church was consolidated under the rule of powerful men for political purposes early in it's life, we also see in the New Testament that false teachers and evil people had come into power in the Church already while the apostles still lived. That's why God had the apostles write what they wrote, because it can be trusted over the verbal blatherings of uninspired men and power grabbers. Conditional security based on following the rules of the church was a terrible man made doctrine that scared people into submission to the rule of evil men. That's why we had to have a reformation, to get back to the bible, back to what God says, not what men in bought positions said. That is why you start hearing biblical teachings spoken clearly again around the 15 and 1600s. God had decided it was time to liberate his Church from tyranny. So when you talk about the first 15 or 1600 years of church history you are talkling about a great time of darkness with very few bright spots. The devil was working overtime trying to destroy the church but God, through the reformation, brought the bible back to the forefront and now we can see clearly what it says. So just like in the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, the scriptures were found and read out loud to the people. The reason that the SBC (the largest and fastest growing "protestant" denomination) teaches eternal security, and the reason people believe it is because that is what the bible clearly teaches when you just read it and believe what it says, and only through appealing to a dark past that God gloriously swept aside and taking passages out of context while ignoring the law of non contradiction can one try to shed doubt on the eternal security of the believer. It is written down forever that those who believe in Jesus Christ are saved, God's word will never change. It will last forever.
Isaish 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever."
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DeaconDean
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Folks, evidently some here think that all revelation of the meaning of scriptures stopped not long after the Nicene Council.
I'm not speaking of revelation of new scripture, but a better understanding of what scripture means under guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Some here quote the ECF's thinking that settles that.
If you don't want to believe in the eternal security of the believer, fine.
No-one here is gonna twist your arm and make you believe.
But it is a fact that from the early 17th century, until the war of northern aggression
D) or until the abolition movement of the 1830's, Baptists in America believed in the security of the believer.
This is evidenced by the early Baptist Confessions in their statements of "Perseverance".
James P. Boyce, Abstract of Principles, Section XIII, Preseverance of the Saints
Source
I'm not speaking of revelation of new scripture, but a better understanding of what scripture means under guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Some here quote the ECF's thinking that settles that.
If you don't want to believe in the eternal security of the believer, fine.
No-one here is gonna twist your arm and make you believe.
But it is a fact that from the early 17th century, until the war of northern aggression
D) or until the abolition movement of the 1830's, Baptists in America believed in the security of the believer.This is evidenced by the early Baptist Confessions in their statements of "Perseverance".
The Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith of 1742, Chapter 17, Of Perseverance, Chapter 18, Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation.
And:
1806 Mississippi Baptist Association Articles of Faith
And:
Principles of Faith of the Sandy Creek Association
The New Hampshire Confession of Faith of 1833
And in the very first Baptist Seminary in America, (Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) this was adopted in 1858 as a rule to teach by, teaching contrary to this would mean automatic dismissal:
James P. Boyce, Abstract of Principles, Section XIII, Preseverance of the Saints
Source
These facts are undisputable.
The early church also believed baptism adminstered by a bishop of the church, was a requirement of regeneration.
You gonna side with them also?
Just because they taught it, don't make it right.
Fact is folks, until the time when Arminian Baptist began to take hold, and with the Abolition Movement gaining strength, Baptists in America believed in the Perseverance of the Saints.
Scriptures teach it, Baptist have taught it, and I believe it, that settles it.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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phoenixdem
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When the Roman Catholic Church became the dominant church following the times of the Apostles, church officials placed Peter as the head of their church, the first Pope from a verse that Christ said that Peter was a little stone and He, Christ, was the rock, the foundation, of His Church.
The Roman Catholic Popes, in the spiel and practice of the Roman Catholics, became God's Representative on earth and they spoke with the authority of God. The Roman Catholic Church placed believers back under the law and they had to do good works for salvation and keep themselves in the faith or they would go to Hell.
Then came the Roman Catholic imaginary place of correction called Purgatory, There has never been a Protestant Purgatory, it is a Roman Catholic invention to extort money from the believers. Men wearing cleric garb could forgive men their sins and give the professing sinners work to do to work off their bad karma. Doesn't all of this sound like blasphamy? It should.
Then came the Reformation in which salvation by faith was once again preached and believed by many. The Roman Catholic Church and its Inquisition tried to stamp out belief in the gospel salvation, but the belief once delivered to the Saints by God, suppressed by the Roman Catholic Church for centuries, and preached again by Luthor and the other reformers endured.
The fight for the gospel between the Reformers and the Roman Catholic Church and the Arminians goes on even today. There are still those who would place men under the law which never saved anyone. The message of salvation by the grace of God is still believed by many. God said He would always have His remnant. So be it.
The Roman Catholic Popes, in the spiel and practice of the Roman Catholics, became God's Representative on earth and they spoke with the authority of God. The Roman Catholic Church placed believers back under the law and they had to do good works for salvation and keep themselves in the faith or they would go to Hell.
Then came the Roman Catholic imaginary place of correction called Purgatory, There has never been a Protestant Purgatory, it is a Roman Catholic invention to extort money from the believers. Men wearing cleric garb could forgive men their sins and give the professing sinners work to do to work off their bad karma. Doesn't all of this sound like blasphamy? It should.
Then came the Reformation in which salvation by faith was once again preached and believed by many. The Roman Catholic Church and its Inquisition tried to stamp out belief in the gospel salvation, but the belief once delivered to the Saints by God, suppressed by the Roman Catholic Church for centuries, and preached again by Luthor and the other reformers endured.
The fight for the gospel between the Reformers and the Roman Catholic Church and the Arminians goes on even today. There are still those who would place men under the law which never saved anyone. The message of salvation by the grace of God is still believed by many. God said He would always have His remnant. So be it.
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