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Eternal punishment vs eternal life

Jeff Saunders

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What evidence do you have to prove that?

what is a soul? what is a spirit?

The concepts of the soul and spirit are deeply philosophical and theological, and different cultures and belief systems have varying interpretations.
The Bible is the evidence that man lives forever. I believe the soul is what we do with our lives , did we follow Jesus or did we live for ourselves, that is why Jesus says that if you want to save your soul you die to self and follow him and when your mortal body dies you keep on going but if you live for your flesh when you die your soul will die in the lake of fire the second death, those people lose all that they have made of themselves it’s like they have to start over again from zero. The spirit is what God gives us that makes us human and that is the part that has no end , we are spiritual beings having an mortal body experience , and that body does have an end either by death or transformation in the second coming.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Where does the breath of life given to Adam come into all of this?
Not sure , If I had to guess I would say that is what God gave all breathing creatures like in Genesis when God flooded the earth he said all that had the breath of life would die that was animal and human.
 
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Diamond72

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God gave all breathing creatures like in Genesis
  • Genesis 2:7: "Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." This passage suggests that the breath of life is the divine breath that imparts life to the human body, making it a living soul (or being).

Connection to Spirit and Soul:​

  • Breath of Life: The divine breath that God gives to humans is often seen as the life force or spirit that animates the body. It signifies the infusion of life and the spark of consciousness.
  • Spirit (Ruach): In Hebrew, "ruach" means breath, wind, or spirit. It is used to describe God's Spirit as well as the human spirit, which is considered the life force within a person.
  • Soul (Nephesh): The Hebrew word "nephesh" is often translated as soul, but it also means life or living being. It refers to the whole person, encompassing both the physical and spiritual aspects.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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Rigorously scratching my head … what isolated verses are you referring to? And I don’t recall bringing your faith in to the conversation, at least not concerning this part of our discussion. We were discussing the relationship of the noun Aion and adjective Aionios as it related to life; eternal or age-abiding. John 3:16 was the Scripture we were using to illustrate our position. Apolloomee is translated: perish, destroy, lost ect … in over 80 plus Scriptures so I simply wanted to understand where you were coming from and how you arrived at your being convinced that “perish equated to being non existent?” I believe I posed a legitimate question to you concerning your position on the fate of the unbelieving ones. Do you not agree?
I have stated my understanding multiple times. As I have stated, in a previous post, I think I have unequivocally shown using scripture alone that aionios means eternal, NOT "[noun] age [transitive verb] abiding or [noun] age [transitive verb] enduring. "Aionios" is an adjective it should not require 2 or more words to translate it into English. I have been stating my view here for close to 20 years and not nobody, not no how has ever shown me to be incorrect. Several have told me with zero evidence that I am incorrect.
So yes my friend, I most definitely need you to expound on the above Scripture you have provided because I am absolutely in the dark as to how they remotely provide even a hint of an answer to my question. If you feel you do not want to “spoon feed” it to me, and make me work for it in an effort to make me earn what I learn. Ok. But please give me a bit of direction so I have a place to start looking for an answer because, as I said, I am apolloomee (lost).

blessings …
Let me present the first part of my exposition on the Greek word "aionios."
…..Some people mistakenly claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never means eternity/eternal” because a few times they refer to things which are not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. Jesus never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not/could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Luke 1:33, John 6:58, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27, John 8:51
[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]​
In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition means eternal, no end.
[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”
[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.
[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite age,” by definition it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​
In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​
In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.
[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​
In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.
 
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Der Alte

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Rigorously scratching my head … what isolated verses are you referring to? And I don’t recall bringing your faith in to the conversation, at least not concerning this part of our discussion. We were discussing the relationship of the noun Aion and adjective Aionios as it related to life; eternal or age-abiding. John 3:16 was the Scripture we were using to illustrate our position. Apolloomee is translated: perish, destroy, lost ect … in over 80 plus Scriptures so I simply wanted to understand where you were coming from and how you arrived at your being convinced that “perish equated to being non existent?” I believe I posed a legitimate question to you concerning your position on the fate of the unbelieving ones. Do you not agree?...
The definition of Apollomi from BDAG Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich lexicon. One of if not the best lexicon available.

ἀπόλλυμι [Apollumi]for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
① to cause or experience destruction
ⓐ act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Chariton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).
γ. without obj. J 10:10.
ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies; Tat. 21, 2 τοὺς ἀνθρώπους … ἀπόλλυσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel]; PPetr II, 4 [1], 4f νυνὶ δὲ ἀπολλύμεθα) Mt 8:25; Mk 4:38; Lk 8:24 (Arrian, Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀ. die by the sword Mt 26:52. λιμῷ of hunger (Ezk 34:29) Lk 15:17. τῇ ἀντιλογίᾳ τοῦ Κόρε Jd 11c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cp. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). ὑπό τινος (Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13 [7], 12) ὑπὸ τ. ὄφεων killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9; cp. vs. 10. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50. Of individuals (Lev 23:30) Ac 5:37; 2 Pt 3:9; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20).—Esp. of eternal death (cp. Ps 9:6f; 36:20; 67:3; 72:27; 82:18; 91:10; Is 41:11) J 3:16; 17:12. ἀπολέσθαι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 ἡμεῖς ἀπολλύμενοι τὸν αἰῶνα). ἀνόμως ἀ. Ro 2:12; μωρῶς ἀ. IEph 17:2 (cp. ἀσκόπως Just., D. 8, 4); ἐν καυχήσει because of boasting ITr 4:1; cp. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11; 15:18; 2 Cl 17:1.—οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι (opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, as in Plut., Mor. 469d) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Th 2:10; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this τὸ ἀπολωλός Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:10 v.l.—Ezk 34:4, 16). τὰ ἀπολλύμενα 2 Cl 2:7 (cp. SIG 417, 9 τὰ τε ἀπολωλότα ἐκ τ. ἱεροῦ ἀνέσωσαν). S. also 3b end.
β. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined (Jos., Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem; Tat. 17, 2 πάθος … ἀπολλύμενον) of bursting wineskins Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37; fading beauty Js 1:11; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7. AcPl Ha 2, 24; [χρυσὸς]| γὰρ ἀπόλλυται 9:8f; passing splendor Rv 18:14 (w. ἀπό as Jer 10:11; Da 7:17). Of earthly food J 6:27; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5; σαρκὸς ἀπολλυμένης AcPlCor 2:15. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6). μὴ … τὸ μνημόσυνον [ὑμῶν]| ἀπόλιτε (read ἀπόληται) AcPl Ha 1, 22f.
② to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, lose out on, lose (X., Pla.+; PPetr III, 51, 5; POxy 743, 23; PFay 111, 3ff; Sir 6:3; 9:6; 27:16 al.; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14; Tat. 8, τὸν ἐρώμενον; 15, 1) τ. μισθόν lose the reward Mt 10:42; Mk 9:41; Hs 5, 6, 7. δραχμήν (Dio Chrys. 70 [20], 25) Lk 15:8f; ἀ. ἃ ἠργασάμεθα lose what we have worked for 2J 8. διαθήκην B 4:7, 8. τὴν ζωὴν τ. ἀνθρώπων Hm 2:1; cp. Hs 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2f and 5. τὴν ἐλπίδα m 5, 1, 7.
③ to lose someth. that one already has or be separated from a normal connection, lose, be lost
ⓐ act. w. colloq. flavor ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μή ἀπολέσω ἐξ αὐτοῦ that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 (B-D-F §466, 3 on Semitic assoc.; Rob. 437; 753).—ἀ. τὴν ψυχήν (cp. Sir 20:22) lose one’s life Mt 10:39; 16:25; Mk 8:35; Lk 9:24; 17:33; cp. J 12:25. For this ἀ. ἑαυτόν lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus [VII B.C.], Fgm. 8 Diehl2 lines 11–14: ‘One who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
ⓑ mid. (Antiphon: Diels, Vorsokrat. 87, Fgm. 54 ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον; X., Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3; Tat. 9, 2) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18; Ac 27:34; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29f; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6; 15:24; Lk 15:4, 6; B 5:12 (cp. Jer 27:6; Ezk 34:4; Ps 118:176). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 (Artem. 4, 33 ἡ γυνὴ … τ. υἱὸν ἀπώλεσε καὶ … εὗρεν αὐτόν); of humanity in general ἀπολλύμενος ἐζητήθη ἵνα ζωοποιηθῇ διὰ τῆς υἱοθεσίας when lost, humanity was sought, so that it might regain life through acceptance into sonship AcPlCor 2:8 (cp. 1bα.—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). ἀ. θεῷ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4 (cod. A for ἀπέθανον).—B. 758. DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 115–116.
 
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The definition of Apollomi from BDAG Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich lexicon. One of if not the best lexicon available.

ἀπόλλυμι [Apollumi]for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
① to cause or experience destruction
ⓐ act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Chariton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).
γ. without obj. J 10:10.
ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies; Tat. 21, 2 τοὺς ἀνθρώπους … ἀπόλλυσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel]; PPetr II, 4 [1], 4f νυνὶ δὲ ἀπολλύμεθα) Mt 8:25; Mk 4:38; Lk 8:24 (Arrian, Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀ. die by the sword Mt 26:52. λιμῷ of hunger (Ezk 34:29) Lk 15:17. τῇ ἀντιλογίᾳ τοῦ Κόρε Jd 11c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cp. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). ὑπό τινος (Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13 [7], 12) ὑπὸ τ. ὄφεων killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9; cp. vs. 10. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50. Of individuals (Lev 23:30) Ac 5:37; 2 Pt 3:9; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20).—Esp. of eternal death (cp. Ps 9:6f; 36:20; 67:3; 72:27; 82:18; 91:10; Is 41:11) J 3:16; 17:12. ἀπολέσθαι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 ἡμεῖς ἀπολλύμενοι τὸν αἰῶνα). ἀνόμως ἀ. Ro 2:12; μωρῶς ἀ. IEph 17:2 (cp. ἀσκόπως Just., D. 8, 4); ἐν καυχήσει because of boasting ITr 4:1; cp. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11; 15:18; 2 Cl 17:1.—οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι (opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, as in Plut., Mor. 469d) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Th 2:10; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this τὸ ἀπολωλός Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:10 v.l.—Ezk 34:4, 16). τὰ ἀπολλύμενα 2 Cl 2:7 (cp. SIG 417, 9 τὰ τε ἀπολωλότα ἐκ τ. ἱεροῦ ἀνέσωσαν). S. also 3b end.
β. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined (Jos., Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem; Tat. 17, 2 πάθος … ἀπολλύμενον) of bursting wineskins Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37; fading beauty Js 1:11; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7. AcPl Ha 2, 24; [χρυσὸς]| γὰρ ἀπόλλυται 9:8f; passing splendor Rv 18:14 (w. ἀπό as Jer 10:11; Da 7:17). Of earthly food J 6:27; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5; σαρκὸς ἀπολλυμένης AcPlCor 2:15. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6). μὴ … τὸ μνημόσυνον [ὑμῶν]| ἀπόλιτε (read ἀπόληται) AcPl Ha 1, 22f.
② to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, lose out on, lose (X., Pla.+; PPetr III, 51, 5; POxy 743, 23; PFay 111, 3ff; Sir 6:3; 9:6; 27:16 al.; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14; Tat. 8, τὸν ἐρώμενον; 15, 1) τ. μισθόν lose the reward Mt 10:42; Mk 9:41; Hs 5, 6, 7. δραχμήν (Dio Chrys. 70 [20], 25) Lk 15:8f; ἀ. ἃ ἠργασάμεθα lose what we have worked for 2J 8. διαθήκην B 4:7, 8. τὴν ζωὴν τ. ἀνθρώπων Hm 2:1; cp. Hs 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2f and 5. τὴν ἐλπίδα m 5, 1, 7.
③ to lose someth. that one already has or be separated from a normal connection, lose, be lost
ⓐ act. w. colloq. flavor ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μή ἀπολέσω ἐξ αὐτοῦ that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 (B-D-F §466, 3 on Semitic assoc.; Rob. 437; 753).—ἀ. τὴν ψυχήν (cp. Sir 20:22) lose one’s life Mt 10:39; 16:25; Mk 8:35; Lk 9:24; 17:33; cp. J 12:25. For this ἀ. ἑαυτόν lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus [VII B.C.], Fgm. 8 Diehl2 lines 11–14: ‘One who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
ⓑ mid. (Antiphon: Diels, Vorsokrat. 87, Fgm. 54 ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον; X., Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3; Tat. 9, 2) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18; Ac 27:34; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29f; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6; 15:24; Lk 15:4, 6; B 5:12 (cp. Jer 27:6; Ezk 34:4; Ps 118:176). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 (Artem. 4, 33 ἡ γυνὴ … τ. υἱὸν ἀπώλεσε καὶ … εὗρεν αὐτόν); of humanity in general ἀπολλύμενος ἐζητήθη ἵνα ζωοποιηθῇ διὰ τῆς υἱοθεσίας when lost, humanity was sought, so that it might regain life through acceptance into sonship AcPlCor 2:8 (cp. 1bα.—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). ἀ. θεῷ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4 (cod. A for ἀπέθανον).—B. 758. DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 115–116.
My brother,
I truly am sorry if I have upset you, for it never was my intention. I am clear on your position concerning the rendering of Aion/Aionios so no need for further discussion on that matter. But throughout all of our discussions I always understood your position, concerning the final fate of those who die in their sins, to be one of eternal conscious punishment. In one of our most recent discussions you stated you were ”convinced perish means to be non existent.“ I agree with the above observations of the word Apollomi. But nothing, as far as I can see, allows for one being non-existent. Can you not see why I am confused? One who is non-existent cannot be in a state of eternal conscious punishment. If you do not wish to share with me how you arrived at perishing being equal to being non-existent; and how this relates to your position of eternal conscious punishment, then I will respect your choice to not speak to the matter and consider our discussion to have concluded.

Finally, my reason for pressing you as to whether or not you have considered if you are one of those of whom Jesus spoke about when he stated, “… depart from me you workers of iniquity, for I never knew you”, was to stir your heart to the precariousness of your position. I simply cannot fathom the very idea that God would leave one of His children with even the slightest doubt of their position in Christ.

I believe this single verse of Scripture, coming from the lips of our Savior, is intended to expose our hearts to what exactly we are entrusting ourselves. This verse acts like a mirror to the one who is pointing his finger at another with contempt,
concerning their standing before God. It is either our position in Him or our position in ourselves. God is very clear when He says “I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY TO ANOTHER.” Certainly you can see the destructive influence of this position on the mind. It absolutely demands that you must wait until judgement day before you can unequivocally know if you belong to Him; regardless of how sure you are in this present age.

I love you my friend …
blessings
 
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My brother,
I truly am sorry if I have upset you, for it never was my intention. I am clear on your position concerning the rendering of Aion/Aionios so no need for further discussion on that matter. But throughout all of our discussions I always understood your position, concerning the final fate of those who die in their sins, to be one of eternal conscious punishment. In one of our most recent discussions you stated you were ”convinced perish means to be non existent.“ I agree with the above observations of the word Apollomi. But nothing, as far as I can see, allows for one being non-existent. Can you not see why I am confused? One who is non-existent cannot be in a state of eternal conscious punishment. If you do not wish to share with me how you arrived at perishing being equal to being non-existent; and how this relates to your position of eternal conscious punishment, then I will respect your choice to not speak to the matter and consider our discussion to have concluded.

Finally, my reason for pressing you as to whether or not you have considered if you are one of those of whom Jesus spoke about when he stated, “… depart from me you workers of iniquity, for I never knew you”, was to stir your heart to the precariousness of your position. I simply cannot fathom the very idea that God would leave one of His children with even the slightest doubt of their position in Christ.

I believe this single verse of Scripture, coming from the lips of our Savior, is intended to expose our hearts to what exactly we are entrusting ourselves. This verse acts like a mirror to the one who is pointing his finger at another with contempt,
concerning their standing before God. It is either our position in Him or our position in ourselves. God is very clear when He says “I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY TO ANOTHER.” Certainly you can see the destructive influence of this position on the mind. It absolutely demands that you must wait until judgement day before you can unequivocally know if you belong to Him; regardless of how sure you are in this present age.

I love you my friend …
blessings
Not saying you are but some folks get bogged down in the vss. which support their beliefs.
Matthew 25:32​
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:​
EOB Matthew 25:46​
(46) And these [ones on the left. sic] shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​
After we die eventually our bodies turn to dust. In a sense we do not exist. But what God created He can recreate.
The last book in the Bible
Revelation 20:5​
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.​
Revelation 20:13​
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.​
Revelation 21:2​
(2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​
Revelation 21:4​
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​
Revelation 21:8​
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. [figurative no more death Rev 21:4]]​
Revelation 22:11​
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​
Revelation 22:15​
(15) For without [outside the new Jerusalem Rev 21:2] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​
 
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Not saying you are but some folks get bogged down in the vss. which support their beliefs.
Thank you for the courtesy highlighted above. Before I move forward do you agree the Hebrew word Olam is equivalent to the Greek word Aion? This is my understanding and position so I just wanted to see if we are on the same page. So, my view is Aion = age and Olam = age. Yours would be Aion = eternal and Olam = eternal? Correct so far?
Matthew 25:32​
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:​
EOB Matthew 25:46​
(46) And these [ones on the left. sic] shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​
After we die eventually our bodies turn to dust. In a sense we do not exist. But what God created He can recreate.
So, correct me if I am wrong in my understanding, you were speaking about the physical part of man ceasing to exist, not the sum total of the living soul? Which, as a side note concerning the soul, I believe is body + spirit = soul.

”And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.“
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2‬:‭7‬ ‭ASV‬‬


So, from the above highlighted sentences, based on my assumption your position concerning Olam = eternal; I conclude you would agree with the following summation of “The Preacher“, found in Ecclesiastes 12: 5b-7 concerning the conclusion of man‘s life?

“yea, they shall be afraid of that which is high, and terrors shall be in the way; and the almond-tree shall blossom, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail; because man goeth to his everlasting home, and the mourners go about the streets: and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.“ Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12‬:‭5‬, ‭7‬ ‭ASV‬‬.

After this conclusion of man’s life, based on what you wrote, both the highlighted and succeeding verses you quoted, God will recreate man and unite him with his spirit in preparation for the resurrection as he faces the final judgement of his soul?

If you agree I am still confused. If Olam = eternal and not age, according to Scripture spoken through “The Preacher” and your position, man’s ending is the body no longer exists and his spirit abides with God as his eternal home.

On the other hand, if you can understand Olam/Aion as an age this allows the Scripture to breathe out its inspired message. An age can be limited in duration, as I believe is the case in this instance, but can also be undefined and perpetual, in its duration. Thus, understanding that a literal rendering of either Olam/Aion, regardless of how many words are used to correctly communicate its true meaning, still supports the context in which God placed it.

Initially I didn’t intend to make this about Aion/Olam, and I’m still not, but after trying to grapple with understanding your view of man not existing and your position on ECP, I cannot get past the inconsistency that arise when a word is forced to always mean one thing and one thing only.

Consider that the use of Olam in this instance and forcing it to mean eternal. It simply does not allow the Scripture to breathe and interpret itself. Otherwise, the conclusion of man’s existence is body goes back to the earth and his Spirit eternally returns to God who gave it. Whereas, if Olam is rendered as and age here, it allows for the resurrection and the reuniting of the body with the spirit. Now consider the following verse translated both ways:

”Before mountains were brought forth, And Thou dost form the earth and the world, Even from age unto age Thou [art] God.“
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭90‬:‭2‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

”Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.“
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭90‬:‭2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Either rendering does not change the meaning of the verse. That is all Jeff Saunders was trying to point out to you concerning Aion/Aionios. Anyway brother, I look forward to hearing back from you and reading your thoughts.

blessings







The last book in the Bible
Revelation 20:5​
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.​
Revelation 20:13​
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.​
Revelation 21:2​
(2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​
Revelation 21:4​
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​
Revelation 21:8​
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. [figurative no more death Rev 21:4]]​
Revelation 22:11​
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​
Revelation 22:15​
(15) For without [outside the new Jerusalem Rev 21:2] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​
 
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Thank you for the courtesy highlighted above. Before I move forward do you agree the Hebrew word Olam is equivalent to the Greek word Aion? This is my understanding and position so I just wanted to see if we are on the same page. So, my view is Aion = age and Olam = age. Yours would be Aion = eternal and Olam = eternal? Correct so far?

So, correct me if I am wrong in my understanding, you were speaking about the physical part of man ceasing to exist, not the sum total of the living soul? Which, as a side note concerning the soul, I believe is body + spirit = soul.

”And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.“
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2‬:‭7‬ ‭ASV‬‬


So, from the above highlighted sentences, based on my assumption your position concerning Olam = eternal; I conclude you would agree with the following summation of “The Preacher“, found in Ecclesiastes 12: 5b-7 concerning the conclusion of man‘s life?

“yea, they shall be afraid of that which is high, and terrors shall be in the way; and the almond-tree shall blossom, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail; because man goeth to his everlasting home, and the mourners go about the streets: and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.“ Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12‬:‭5‬, ‭7‬ ‭ASV‬‬.

After this conclusion of man’s life, based on what you wrote, both the highlighted and succeeding verses you quoted, God will recreate man and unite him with his spirit in preparation for the resurrection as he faces the final judgement of his soul?

If you agree I am still confused. If Olam = eternal and not age, according to Scripture spoken through “The Preacher” and your position, man’s ending is the body no longer exists and his spirit abides with God as his eternal home.

On the other hand, if you can understand Olam/Aion as an age this allows the Scripture to breathe out its inspired message. An age can be limited in duration, as I believe is the case in this instance, but can also be undefined and perpetual, in its duration. Thus, understanding that a literal rendering of either Olam/Aion, regardless of how many words are used to correctly communicate its true meaning, still supports the context in which God placed it.

Initially I didn’t intend to make this about Aion/Olam, and I’m still not, but after trying to grapple with understanding your view of man not existing and your position on ECP, I cannot get past the inconsistency that arise when a word is forced to always mean one thing and one thing only.

Consider that the use of Olam in this instance and forcing it to mean eternal. It simply does not allow the Scripture to breathe and interpret itself. Otherwise, the conclusion of man’s existence is body goes back to the earth and his Spirit eternally returns to God who gave it. Whereas, if Olam is rendered as and age here, it allows for the resurrection and the reuniting of the body with the spirit. Now consider the following verse translated both ways:

”Before mountains were brought forth, And Thou dost form the earth and the world, Even from age unto age Thou [art] God.“
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭90‬:‭2‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

”Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.“
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭90‬:‭2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Either rendering does not change the meaning of the verse. That is all Jeff Saunders was trying to point out to you concerning Aion/Aionios. Anyway brother, I look forward to hearing back from you and reading your thoughts.

blessings
A little clarification I am retired X3 thus here is where I spend a great deal of time, I have been active at CF since 2000. The original owner Erwin Loh asked me to be a moderator and I was for a while. With all that spare time I also did a similar study of the Hebrew olam. I won't bother looking that post up but will provide only a few vss. to support my view.
Ecclesiastes 3:14​
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[עולם/olam] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​
Deuteronomy 13:16​
In this vs. olam is defined as nothing can be taken from it or put to it.
(16) And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever;[olam] it shall not be built again.
In this vs. olam is defined as "shall not be built again."
Judges 2:1​
(1) And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will [la olam] never break my covenant with you.​
In this vs. olam is defined as eternal, God promises I will never break my covenant with you.
1 Kings 9:3​
(3) And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever;[olam] and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.[all days]​
In this vs. olam is defined as perpetually./all days
Although olam is sometimes used to refer to things which are not/cannot be eternal I have not found any vss. where olam is defined as a period less than eternal.
Jewish Publication Society. Psalms 90:2​
(2) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting [olam] to everlasting,[olam] Thou art God.​
In vss such as Ps 90:2 where olam is repeated that is for emphasis in much the same way as we say forever and ever. And we certainly don't mean age to age.
Psalms 37:28​
(28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever:[olam] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.​
In this vs. olam is defined as eternal by contrasting olam with "shall be cut off." There are many more vss. but these few should suffice.
 
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A little clarification I am retired X3 thus here is where I spend a great deal of time, I have been active at CF since 2000. The original owner Erwin Loh asked me to be a moderator and I was for a while. With all that spare time I also did a similar study of the Hebrew olam. I won't bother looking that post up but will provide only a few vss. to support my view.
What post are you referring to that you can’t be bothered to check out? This one?

“yea, they shall be afraid of that which is high, and terrors shall be in the way; and the almond-tree shall blossom, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail; because man goeth to his everlasting home, and the mourners go about the streets: and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.“ Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12‬:‭5‬, ‭7‬ ‭ASV‬‬.

”also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.“
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12‬:‭5‬-‭7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Have you even taken the time to actually read my post? There was no need for you to look it up as I provided it for you in my post. Please note the highlighted area in the above verse, again, which I provided. The ASV translators render Olam as you would, “everlasting (Or eternal).” Interesting to note the KJV translators render Olam as “long.” Why do you suppose they rendered Olam that way? I’m pretty sure it’s because they recognized the implications of rendering Olam as everlasting or eternal.

As I stated in my post, which it appears you did not take the time to read. If Olam is rendered everlasting or eternal, it defines the conclusion of mans life as follows: man’s body returns to the dust and his spirit returns to his eternal home which is God Himself. Nothing in the surroundings context indicates anything other than The Preacher is speaking about mankind in general. This verse is very telling concerning the translators motives. I believe the KJV translators recognized if rendered everlasting or eternal, then the above highlighted statement I made cannot be denied.

The implications of this means The Preacher had no understanding of the resurrection and a final judgement. To him, man is born. Man lives and dies. Man‘s body returns to dust and his spirit returns to God for ever. The end … On the other hand, if Olam is rendered as an age, or age abiding, then it leaves open the door for a resurrection and final judgement.

Now, please take the time to provide me with some commentary on what you believe … good grief Charlie Brown. No further need to expound on your rendering of Olam, Aion, Aionios or otherwise. Just extend to me the simple courtesy of reading my entire posts, start answering the questions I ask, and elaborate on how your understanding of the word Olam relates to the verse in question. I do indeed love you as a brother in Christ and respect your commitment to the Scripture, I expect you to extend to me the same courtesy I extend to you.

blessings

PS I have no further questions for you concerning the Scripture you provided below as it is basically a mirror of your position on the word Aion/Aionios. I understand where you are coming from and I only say this so you know I am not ignoring the rest of your post.

Edit: added for comment
Ecclesiastes 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[עולם/olam] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

The verse you quoted further establishes the point I made concerning forcing the word Olam, to mean and only mean eternal/everlasting. In This verse you highlighted ”… nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: …” Therefor, I can only conclude, unless you share some supporting thoughts to demonstrate my error; you agree with The Preacher that “all mankind” will physically die and return to the dust of the earth from which he was taken AND “all mankind‘s spirit forever finds his home in God.

Side note: I just realized you have made a case for me, the OT Scripture “foresaw“ and prophesied what the NT affirms; “all” of mankind is reconciled to God and He will be all in all! Amen and Amen …


Ecclesiastes 3:14​
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[עולם/olam] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​
Deuteronomy 13:16​
In this vs. olam is defined as nothing can be taken from it or put to it.
(16) And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever;[olam] it shall not be built again.
In this vs. olam is defined as "shall not be built again."
Judges 2:1​
(1) And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will [la olam] never break my covenant with you.​
In this vs. olam is defined as eternal, God promises I will never break my covenant with you.
1 Kings 9:3​
(3) And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever;[olam] and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.[all days]​
In this vs. olam is defined as perpetually./all days
Although olam is sometimes used to refer to things which are not/cannot be eternal I have not found any vss. where olam is defined as a period less than eternal.
Jewish Publication Society. Psalms 90:2​
(2) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting [olam] to everlasting,[olam] Thou art God.​
In vss such as Ps 90:2 where olam is repeated that is for emphasis in much the same way as we say forever and ever. And we certainly don't mean age to age.
Psalms 37:28​
(28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever:[olam] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.​
In this vs. olam is defined as eternal by contrasting olam with "shall be cut off." There are many more vss. but these few should suffice.
 
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The term eternal punishment is the opposite of eternal life. The punishment is eternal death, i.e., annihilation or the absence of life, Revelation 20:
The Bible is the evidence that man lives forever.
Some people have said they actually want to be annihilated . I think they will get what they want.
 
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What post are you referring to that you can’t be bothered to check out? This one?
“yea, they shall be afraid of that which is high, and terrors shall be in the way; and the almond-tree shall blossom, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail; because man goeth to his everlasting home, and the mourners go about the streets: and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.“ Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12‬:‭5‬, ‭7‬ ‭ASV‬‬.
It appears that you might have been little hasty in being offended. The Post I was referring to was my own post, which may have been a few years ago, where I reviewed every occurrence of olam in the Old Testament and showed where many times olam is defined as eternal. Olam is sometimes used to refer to something that cannot be eternal but is never so defined in scripture.
”also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.“
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12‬:‭5‬-‭7‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Have you even taken the time to actually read my post? There was no need for you to look it up as I provided it for you in my post. Please note the highlighted area in the above verse, again, which I provided. The ASV translators render Olam as you would, “everlasting (Or eternal).” Interesting to note the KJV translators render Olam as “long.” Why do you suppose they rendered Olam that way? I’m pretty sure it’s because they recognized the implications of rendering Olam as everlasting or eternal.
As I said I was not referring to your post but my own. I agree olam is translated "long" one time in Eccl 12:5. But is it ever defined as long anywhere in the O.T.? I say no. If you can find one let me know. As I said I reviewed every occurrence of olam in the O.T. and I did not find any occurrence where olam is defined as anything other than eternal/everlasting.
As I stated in my post, which it appears you did not take the time to read. If Olam is rendered everlasting or eternal, it defines the conclusion of mans life as follows: man’s body returns to the dust and his spirit returns to his eternal home which is God Himself. Nothing in the surroundings context indicates anything other than The Preacher is speaking about mankind in general. This verse is very telling concerning the translators motives. I believe the KJV translators recognized if rendered everlasting or eternal, then the above highlighted statement I made cannot be denied.
The implications of this means The Preacher had no understanding of the resurrection and a final judgement. To him, man is born. Man lives and dies. Man‘s body returns to dust and his spirit returns to God for ever. The end … On the other hand, if Olam is rendered as an age, or age abiding, then it leaves open the door for a resurrection and final judgement.
The preacher's words are not the final word on the subject.
Now, please take the time to provide me with some commentary on what you believe … good grief Charlie Brown. No further need to expound on your rendering of Olam, Aion, Aionios or otherwise. Just extend to me the simple courtesy of reading my entire posts, start answering the questions I ask, and elaborate on how your understanding of the word Olam relates to the verse in question. I do indeed love you as a brother in Christ and respect your commitment to the Scripture, I expect you to extend to me the same courtesy I extend to you.
Since I have found numerous verses where olam is defined as eternal, everlasting and I am not aware of any verse where olam is defined as any period less that eternal or everlasting. Sometimes words are used figuratively
blessings
PS I have no further questions for you concerning the Scripture you provided below as it is basically a mirror of your position on the word Aion/Aionios. I understand where you are coming from and I only say this so you know I am not ignoring the rest of your post.
Edit: added for comment
Ecclesiastes 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[עולם/olam] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
The verse you quoted further establishes the point I made concerning forcing the word Olam, to mean and only mean eternal/everlasting. In This verse you highlighted ”… nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: …” Therefor, I can only conclude, unless you share some supporting thoughts to demonstrate my error; you agree with The Preacher that “all mankind” will physically die and return to the dust of the earth from which he was taken AND “all mankind‘s spirit forever finds his home in God.
Scripture does NOT say all mankind finds his home in God. Please explain how I forced the word olam to mean and only mean eternal/everlasting. I quoted scripture and merely directed the readers attention to certain words.
Side note: I just realized you have made a case for me, the OT Scripture “foresaw“ and prophesied what the NT affirms; “all” of mankind is reconciled to God and He will be all in all! Amen and Amen …
Scripture nowhere says ; “all” of mankind is reconciled to God. See the last book in the Bible.
Revelation 21:4​
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​
Revelation 22:11​
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​
Revelation 22:14-15​
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [new Jerusalem]​
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​
Revelation 22:19​
(19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.​
Here are a few more scriptures supporting my position.​
Genesis 21:33​
(33) And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting [olam] God.
Exodus 40:15​
(15) And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting [olam] priesthood throughout their generations.
Psalms 100:5​
(5) For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting;[olam] and his truth endureth to all generations.
Psalms 41:13​
(13) Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting,[olam] and to everlasting.[olam] Amen, and Amen.Psalms 90:2, Psalms 103:17, Psalms 106:48​
Isaiah 45:17​
(17) But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting [olam] salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.[ad olam ad]​
Isaiah 55:13​
(13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting [olam] sign that shall not be cut off.
Isaiah 56:5​
(5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting [olam] name, that shall not be cut off.
Jeremiah 20:11​
(11) But the LORD is with me as a mighty terrible one: therefore my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: their everlasting[olam] confusion shall never be forgotten.​
Jeremiah 32:40​
(40) And I will make an everlasting [olam] covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.​
Exodus 40:15​
(15) And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting [olam] priesthood throughout their generations.
Psalms 100:5​
(5) For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting[olam]; and his truth endureth to all generations.+Psa 145:13,​
Jeremiah 20:11​
(11) But the LORD is with me as a mighty terrible one: therefore my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: their everlasting [olam] confusion shall never be forgotten.​
Jeremiah 23:40​
(40) And I will bring an everlasting [olam] reproach upon you, and a perpetual [olam] shame, which shall not be forgotten.​
Jeremiah 32:40​
(40) And I will make an everlasting [olam] covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
 
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What post are you referring to that you can’t be bothered to check out? This one?
“yea, they shall be afraid of that which is high, and terrors shall be in the way; and the almond-tree shall blossom, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail; because man goeth to his everlasting home, and the mourners go about the streets: and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.“ Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12‬:‭5‬, ‭7‬ ‭ASV‬‬.
It appears that you might have been little hasty in being offended. The Post I was referring to was my own post, which may have been a few years ago, where I reviewed every occurrence of olam in the Old Testament and showed where many times olam is defined as eternal. Olam is sometimes used to refer to something that cannot be eternal but is never so defined in scripture.

My reply:
Well brother, your only reply to my previous post was to clarify for me that you had previously been a mod, a member since 2000 and had done a study on the word Olam. Then listed several verses without even addressing one single question or thought I had penned. So yea, that rubbed me the wrong way but I do apologize for interpreting your statement.
”also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.“
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12‬:‭5‬-‭7‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Have you even taken the time to actually read my post? There was no need for you to look it up as I provided it for you in my post. Please note the highlighted area in the above verse, again, which I provided. The ASV translators render Olam as you would, “everlasting (Or eternal).” Interesting to note the KJV translators render Olam as “long.” Why do you suppose they rendered Olam that way? I’m pretty sure it’s because they recognized the implications of rendering Olam as everlasting or eternal.
Click to expand...
As I said I was not referring to your post but my own. I agree olam is translated "long" one time in Eccl 12:5. But is it ever defined as long anywhere in the O.T.? I say no. If you can find one let me know. As I said I reviewed every occurrence of olam in the O.T. and I did not find any occurrence where olam is defined as anything other than eternal/everlasting.

My reply:
My point in noting the KJV‘s rendering of Olam as “long” was to point out they did not render it everlasting/eternal; not that other verses in the OT are rendered “long.” This verse, according to your study most definitely should be rendered everlasting/eternal, yet you took no time to address the error of the KJV translators. Nor have you addressed “any” of the implications I pointed out for rendering Olam as everlasting/eternal in Eccl 12:5-7.

You defined the rules of your study but fail to address why you agree with the KJ translators for breaking your own rules of interpretation, because this verse most definitely relates to something that, according to you, should be rendered everlasting/eternal. (1) I will wait for your reply and defense for allowing this departure from your own position.
As I stated in my post, which it appears you did not take the time to read. If Olam is rendered everlasting or eternal, it defines the conclusion of mans life as follows: man’s body returns to the dust and his spirit returns to his eternal home which is God Himself. Nothing in the surroundings context indicates anything other than The Preacher is speaking about mankind in general. This verse is very telling concerning the translators motives. I believe the KJV translators recognized if rendered everlasting or eternal, then the above highlighted statement I made cannot be denied.
The implications of this means The Preacher had no understanding of the resurrection and a final judgement. To him, man is born. Man lives and dies. Man‘s body returns to dust and his spirit returns to God for ever. The end … On the other hand, if Olam is rendered as an age, or age abiding, then it leaves open the door for a resurrection and final judgement.
Click to expand...
The preacher's words are not the final word on the subject.

My reply:
Well, The Preacher’s words are most definitely inspired Scripture and If he is not saying what I have highlighted above, then provide me with your thoughts on what he is saying! Do not just quote me more verses … defend your position based on your own rules of interpretation. (2) I eagerly await your reply.
Now, please take the time to provide me with some commentary on what you believe … good grief Charlie Brown. No further need to expound on your rendering of Olam, Aion, Aionios or otherwise. Just extend to me the simple courtesy of reading my entire posts, start answering the questions I ask, and elaborate on how your understanding of the word Olam relates to the verse in question. I do indeed love you as a brother in Christ and respect your commitment to the Scripture, I expect you to extend to me the same courtesy I extend to you.
Since I have found numerous verses where olam is defined as eternal, everlasting and I am not aware of any verse where olam is defined as any period less that eternal or everlasting. Sometimes words are used figuratively

My reply:
See Eccl. 12:5-7 for your verse defined as less than everlasting/eternal. Do not tell me you already agreed this verse is rendered less than eternal/everlasting. Tell me “why” you agree; or inform me as to how this verse can be understood figuratively. You just indicated this can sometimes be the case so now I am asking you to splain yourself! (3) I will wait for your reply.
blessings
PS I have no further questions for you concerning the Scripture you provided below as it is basically a mirror of your position on the word Aion/Aionios. I understand where you are coming from and I only say this so you know I am not ignoring the rest of your post.
Edit: added for comment
Ecclesiastes 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[עולם/olam] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
The verse you quoted further establishes the point I made concerning forcing the word Olam, to mean and only mean eternal/everlasting. In This verse you highlighted ”… nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: …” Therefor, I can only conclude, unless you share some supporting thoughts to demonstrate my error; you agree with The Preacher that “all mankind” will physically die and return to the dust of the earth from which he was taken AND “all mankind‘s spirit forever finds his home in God.
Click to expand...
Scripture does NOT say all mankind finds his home in God. Please explain how I forced the word olam to mean and only mean eternal/everlasting. I quoted scripture and merely directed the readers attention to certain words.

My reply:
If you do not agree with my interpretation of The Preacher’s inspired words, then as I have, then tell me what is your interpretation? It is not enough for you to simply state: “Scripture does NOT say all mankind finds his home in God.” Because it sure seems to me like he is stating just that very thing. And I explained why I interpret his words that way, now I expect you to do the same for me. (4) I will wait for your reply.
Side note: I just realized you have made a case for me, the OT Scripture “foresaw“ and prophesied what the NT affirms; “all” of mankind is reconciled to God and He will be all in all! Amen and Amen …
Scripture nowhere says ; “all” of mankind is reconciled to God. See the last book in the Bible.

My reply:
”And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.“
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬-‭19‬ ‭KJV‬‬:

Unless I do error in my interpretation, Paul states to the Christian’s at the church of Corinth, that God has reconciled them to Himself by Jesus AND God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. He identifies believers and unbelievers as those being reconciled.


”and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled“
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭20‬-‭21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul here again states the totality of Gods reconciliation … Again, unless I do error, Paul states God’s reconciliation encompasses “all” things in earth and heaven; then he applies their, believers in the church as those included in the “all” things.

Finally, your comment, “See the last book in the Bible.” and the verses you listed IS NOT the conclusion of all things as many do mistakenly believe. Just because the book of Revelation is the last book in the Scriptures does not mean it informs us of the the final conclusion of God’s master plan; that is found here:

”The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.“
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭26‬-‭28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

No commentary should be needed from me … (5) I will wait for your reply.

My brother I have listed (5) “I will wait for your replies.“ Please take the time to address them with your own thoughts and interpretations. Please do not just cut and paste verses with little to no thoughts of your own. Elaborate, develop and defend your position and reason for including them in your reply.

blessings

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [new Jerusalem]
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:19
(19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 
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My reply:
Well brother, your only reply to my previous post was to clarify for me that you had previously been a mod, a member since 2000 and had done a study on the word Olam. Then listed several verses without even addressing one single question or thought I had penned. So yea, that rubbed me the wrong way but I do apologize for interpreting your statement.
Apology accepted.
My reply:
My point in noting the KJV‘s rendering of Olam as “long” was to point out they did not render it everlasting/eternal; not that other verses in the OT are rendered “long.” This verse, according to your study most definitely should be rendered everlasting/eternal, yet you took no time to address the error of the KJV translators. Nor have you addressed “any” of the implications I pointed out for rendering Olam as everlasting/eternal in Eccl 12:5-7.
Since only one verse translates aionios as long, that one verse cannot be controlling when there are many vss. which translate aionios as eternal/everlasting. I would say that eternal is a long time.

The preacher's words are not the final word on the subject.
My reply:
Well, The Preacher’s words are most definitely inspired Scripture and If he is not saying what I have highlighted above, then provide me with your thoughts on what he is saying! Do not just quote me more verses … defend your position based on your own rules of interpretation. (2) I eagerly await your reply.
Yes " The Preacher’s words are most definitely inspired Scripture" However once again one vs. cannot be controlling when several other vss. contradict that one vs. Again eternal is a long time.
See Eccl. 12:5-7 for your verse defined as less than everlasting/eternal. Do not tell me you already agreed this verse is rendered less than eternal/everlasting. Tell me “why” you agree; or inform me as to how this verse can be understood figuratively. You just indicated this can sometimes be the case so now I am asking you to splain yourself! (3) I will wait for your reply.
Olam being translated one time as long does NOT define olam and I have shown in several verses. Which OBTW you have not addressed.
An example of what I mean when I say defined.
Ecclesiastes 3:14​
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [olam] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​

If you do not agree with my interpretation of The Preacher’s inspired words, then as I have, then tell me what is your interpretation? It is not enough for you to simply state: “Scripture does NOT say all mankind finds his home in God.” Because it sure seems to me like he is stating just that very thing. And I explained why I interpret his words that way, now I expect you to do the same for me. (4) I will wait for your reply.
Ecclesiastes 12:5-7​
(5) Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:​
(6) Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.​
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​
All spirits will return to God and be judged read the last book in the Bible. Now let us review Matt 25:34, 41, 46
Matthew 25:34​
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:​
Matthew 25:41​
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​
Matthew 25:46​
(46) And these [on His left hand] shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​
And the end of the book.
Revelation 22:3​
(3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:​
Revelation 22:11​
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​
Revelation 22:15​
(15) For without [outside the new Jerusalem] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

My reply:
”And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.“
Reconciled "US" Christians NOT all mankind! "Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" Does NOT mean all mankind will be reconciled. The spirit of Christ is still at work "reconciling the world unto Himself" But we can see almost on a daily basis that the whole has not been and is NOT reconciled to God.
”and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled“
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭20‬-‭21‬ ‭KJV‬‬
"you, [Christians not all mankind] that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.[again Christians NOT all mankind]. Christ's ministry was "to reconcile all things to Himself" Was the man who recently set a woman on fire on the subway reconciled? Will a murderer on death row be reconciled?
Ecclesiastes 9:10​
(10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​
Finally, your comment, “See the last book in the Bible.” and the verses you listed IS NOT the conclusion of all things as many do mistakenly believe. Just because the book of Revelation is the last book in the Scriptures does not mean it informs us of the the final conclusion of God’s master plan; that is found here:
Prove it!
”The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.“
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭26‬-‭28‬ ‭KJV‬‬
No commentary should be needed from me … (5) I will wait for your reply.
"Under His feet" are enemies NOT Christians! "Subdued" is NOT saved. "Under Him" is not saved!
My brother I have listed (5) “I will wait for your replies.“ Please take the time to address them with your own thoughts and interpretations. Please do not just cut and paste verses with little to no thoughts of your own. Elaborate, develop and defend your position and reason for including them in your reply.
Now please show me how my interpretation about the vss. I quoted do not say what I said they say. One additional passage to review
Matthew 7:21-23​
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​
(22) Many will say to me in that day, [judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
When Jesus says "never" He does not mean by and by, someday.
 
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Well my friend I believe we have come to a conclusion concerning our discussion on this subject. We are both acutely aware of each other’s position and there does not appear to be an end to our exchange anytime soon. Thank you for all the time you have invested on this matter.

I‘ll be taking a break from CF during the next couple weeks. I hope you and all those you love continue to enjoy the blessings of our Creator, given to us through the person of our precious Lord Jesus. May His Spirit continue to lead us both to a deeper understanding of His great love for us. I love you my friend!

blessings
 
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Well my friend I believe we have come to a conclusion concerning our discussion on this subject. We are both acutely aware of each other’s position and there does not appear to be an end to our exchange anytime soon. Thank you for all the time you have invested on this matter.

I‘ll be taking a break from CF during the next couple weeks. I hope you and all those you love continue to enjoy the blessings of our Creator, given to us through the person of our precious Lord Jesus. May His Spirit continue to lead us both to a deeper understanding of His great love for us. I love you my friend!

blessings
Have a Holy holiday. My post will still be here. Something that just occurred to me. When you return perhaps you could choose 2 or 3 or more of the many verses I quoted and convince me that they do not define aionios. Here are 2.
EOB John 3:15-16​
15 so that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal [aionios] life. '*Indeed, God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal [aionios] life.​
In these 2 vss. aionios is defined as eternal, it is juxtaposed with "should not perish" twice. A false translation of "should not perish of the age" "age" a finite period does not equate with "should not perish." EOB = Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible.
 
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@Free2bHeretical4Him!
Getting a head start on my reply. As I mentioned above, 2 years ago I reviewed every occurrence of aionios in the N.T. and I found 24 vss. where aionios is defined in the verse. The first part of the study is in post # 205, above. Here is the second part.
[Previous post continued]
Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal .....[aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
.....12]Ephesians 3:21
.....(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and .....ever! [ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
.....[13]Romans 1:20
......(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the .....things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
.....[14]Romans 16:26
.....(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of .....the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, forever, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, book of Romans, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” Thus in this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]
In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]
In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.
In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.
In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/lit. unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”
[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] [lit: unto the eternity of eternities] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “unto the aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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Hello my brother Der Alte. I enjoyed spending time with my family and friends away from CF and am refreshed in my spirit. I trust you did as well. I do believe we have parleyed enough on the Aion/Aionios matter so I’m going to pass on continuing that discussion.

Having said that, with your permission, if I have some further thoughts on John 3:15-16 I would prefer to send you my thoughts via message? I have a particular summation on these verses saved somewhere but can’t seem to find its location. When I do, I would like to send to you for your thoughts. This way we can limit the amount of Scripture being quote, which usually adds opportunity for other discussions and diverts attention away from the one on hand. This will allow us to develop our thoughts exclusively around the John 3:15-16 passage. Not a cop-out, as I briefly mentioned in one of our exchanges, I have trouble focusing on multiple subjects at one time. Just shoot me a message if you are open to a side discussion.

blessings
 
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Der Alte

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Hello my brother Der Alte. I enjoyed spending time with my family and friends away from CF and am refreshed in my spirit. I trust you did as well. I do believe we have parleyed enough on the Aion/Aionios matter so I’m going to pass on continuing that discussion.

Having said that, with your permission, if I have some further thoughts on John 3:15-16 I would prefer to send you my thoughts via message? I have a particular summation on these verses saved somewhere but can’t seem to find its location. When I do, I would like to send to you for your thoughts. This way we can limit the amount of Scripture being quote, which usually adds opportunity for other discussions and diverts attention away from the one on hand. This will allow us to develop our thoughts exclusively around the John 3:15-16 passage. Not a cop-out, as I briefly mentioned in one of our exchanges, I have trouble focusing on multiple subjects at one time. Just shoot me a message if you are open to a side discussion.

blessings
Deralter@hotmail.com
 
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