Eternal punishment vs eternal life

[Der Alte]

Help me understand the statement you made that I highlighted. If someone is to perish due to unbelief, and you are convinced perish means to “cease to exist” how can the non
existing person be in a state of “eternal conscious punishment?”

Der Alte said:
”I never said nor implied that perish means suffer. FYI I am convinced that perish means to cease to exist.

My faith is not based on isolated verses. I have read the end of the book also.
Revelation 20:13
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:15
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
If you think it is necessary, I will show my reasoning in more detail.

 

[Der Alte]

I will make this simple- is this a true or false statement “ is God the God of this age we are in now” if false can you explain why.

I'm not here to play games. One can speak of a period of time as an age but I have shown why I know that the noun "aion" means the noun eternity and the adjective "aionios" means the adjective eternal/everlasting. Unlike my study where I have shown that "aionios" is defined in 24 vss. I have not found one verse where "aionios" is defined as referring to a period less than eternal. I have also never seen one verse where "aion" is defined as a period less than eternal. I am aware that there are scholars with a lot of letters after their names that believe otherwise but I have not seen their reasoning. Sam Scholar simply saying "'Aionios' never means eternal!" does NOT indicate why the scholar believes that. OTOH I have.

 

[Diamond72]

I will make this simple- is this a true or false statement “ is God the God of this age we are in now” if false can you explain why.

God is all in all. He is not only in this moment of time, He is also in the past and the future. If we need healing for trauma in our past He does not just heal memories. He goes back in time to heal the actual trauma itself. This is why God can declare the end from the beginning. He is in the beginning, He is in the moment and He is in the future at the end also. He watches over His word to forfill His promise in our life.

God Watches Over His Word:​

• Jeremiah 1:12: "Then the Lord said to me, 'You have seen well, for I am watching over my word to perform it.'" This verse emphasizes God's commitment to fulfilling His promises and ensuring that His word comes to pass.

Declaring the End from the Beginning:​

• Isaiah 46:10: "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.'" This passage speaks to God's assuring that His plans and purposes are established and will be fulfilled.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I'm not here to play games. One can speak of a period of time as an age but I have shown why I know that the noun "aion" means the noun eternity and the adjective "aionios" means the adjective eternal/everlasting. Unlike my study where I have shown that "aionios" is defined in 24 vss. I have not found one verse where "aionios" is defined as referring to a period less than eternal. I have also never seen one verse where "aion" is defined as a period less than eternal. I am aware that there are scholars with a lot of letters after their names that believe otherwise but I have not seen their reasoning. Sam Scholar simply saying "'Aionios' never means eternal!" does NOT indicate why the scholar believes that. OTOH I have.

I don't understand why you call asking a legit question playing games, but I will take your answer as false. The answer you give is circular reasoning. you are doing the same thing that evolutionist do they say " this fossil is 50 million years old - how do you know that ? because its in a rock layer that is 50 million years old.- how do you know the rock layer is 50 million years old? because it has this fossil in it." This is exactly what you are doing. Aion means eternal - how do you know that ? because it speaks of hell and we know hell is eternal. How do you know hell is eternal ? because Aion is used and we know Aion is eternal. To me what you are doing is more like playing games. In a nut shell this is why I don't believe Aion/Aionios means eternal -In my KJV that I have its translated from my count 19 times as world. Why would you translate eternal as world unless you know that eternal makes no sense, why not use cosmos, because that's not the Greek word was its Aionios and to translate it as eternal is absurd so they chose world because that fits the agenda that they had. Every verse that they translated as eternal if substituted for of the age it makes perfect sense. I will give you an example Heb 6:5 KJV " powers of the world to come" they had to change the eternal to world because to say' the powers of the eternal to come" makes no sense. but to say " the powers of the age to come" doesn't fit the agenda. This is just a small example of why I don't believe that eternal is the correct translation, also if you take scripture at face value the verses that plainly talk of the salvation ( however you want to define that ) of all outweigh the few verses that seem to contradict this interpretation.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

My faith is not based on isolated verses. I have read the end of the book also.

Rigorously scratching my head … what isolated verses are you referring to? And I don’t recall bringing your faith in to the conversation, at least not concerning this part of our discussion. We were discussing the relationship of the noun Aion and adjective Aionios as it related to life; eternal or age-abiding. John 3:16 was the Scripture we were using to illustrate our position. Apolloomee is translated: perish, destroy, lost ect … in over 80 plus Scriptures so I simply wanted to understand where you were coming from and how you arrived at your being convinced that “perish equated to being non existent?” I believe I posed a legitimate question to you concerning your position on the fate of the unbelieving ones. Do you not agree?

Revelation 20:13
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:15
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
If you think it is necessary, I will show my reasoning in more detail.

So yes my friend, I most definitely need you to expound on the above Scripture you have provided because I am absolutely in the dark as to how they remotely provide even a hint of an answer to my question. If you feel you do not want to “spoon feed” it to me, and make me work for it in an effort to make me earn what I learn. Ok. But please give me a bit of direction so I have a place to start looking for an answer because, as I said, I am apolloomee (lost).

blessings …

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

God is all in all. He is not only in this moment of time, He is also in the past and the future. If we need healing for trauma in our past He does not just heal memories. He goes back in time to heal the actual trauma itself. This is why God can declare the end from the beginning. He is in the beginning, He is in the moment and He is in the future at the end also. He watches over His word to forfill His promise in our life.

God Watches Over His Word:​

• Jeremiah 1:12: "Then the Lord said to me, 'You have seen well, for I am watching over my word to perform it.'" This verse emphasizes God's commitment to fulfilling His promises and ensuring that His word comes to pass.

Declaring the End from the Beginning:​

• Isaiah 46:10: "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.'" This passage speaks to God's assuring that His plans and purposes are established and will be fulfilled.

You know my brother, I am a simple minded man. I have always thought of the relationship of time to God and His creation as only for our benefit and His purpose of revealing His active presence in our lives. He is outside of time and not bound by His creation of time; yet He chose to enter in to time to bring us the reality of WHO HE IS in His creation. Well said my friend …

blessings

 

[Der Alte]

I don't understand why you call asking a legit question playing games, but I will take your answer as false. The answer you give is circular reasoning. you are doing the same thing that evolutionist do they say " this fossil is 50 million years old - how do you know that ? because its in a rock layer that is 50 million years old.- how do you know the rock layer is 50 million years old? because it has this fossil in it." This is exactly what you are doing.

Incorrect! I have said repeatedly and shown that "aionios" is defined as eternal/everlasting in 24 vss. I acknowledged that "aionios" is translated as "world" a number of times but it is NEVER defined as world or any period of time less than eternal.

Aion means eternal - how do you know that ? because it speaks of hell and we know hell is eternal. How do you know hell is eternal ? because Aion is used and we know Aion is eternal.

That is patently incorrect. I never said "Aion means eternal - how do you know that? because it speaks of hell..."

To me what you are doing is more like playing games. In a nut shell this is why I don't believe Aion/Aionios means eternal -In my KJV that I have its translated from my count 19 times as world. Why would you translate eternal as world unless you know that eternal makes no sense, why not use cosmos, because that's not the Greek word was its Aionios and to translate it as eternal is absurd so they chose world because that fits the agenda that they had.

You just supported my position, "they chose world because that fits the agenda that they had" It fit their agenda but not the grammar. You are partly correct but as I have said repeatedly "aionios" is NEVER defined as "world." For example nowhere is it written "In the beginning God created the heaven and the "aion/aionios."

Every verse that they translated as eternal if substituted for of the age it makes perfect sense. I will give you an example Heb 6:5 KJV " powers of the world to come" they had to change the eternal to world because to say' the powers of the eternal to come" makes no sense. but to say " the powers of the age to come" doesn't fit the agenda.

I think you are using "agenda" incorrectly here. One vs. does NOT prove that I am wrong.

This is just a small example of why I don't believe that eternal is the correct translation, also if you take scripture at face value the verses that plainly talk of the salvation ( however you want to define that ) of all outweigh the few verses that seem to contradict this interpretation.

I do not understand how this is relevant to the current discussion.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.​

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.​

According to what you have said Jesus did not say "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life."
Whereas I believe in these and 8 other verses Jesus defined "'aionios" as eternal/everlasting by saying twice "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life."

 

[Diamond72]

I am a simple minded man.

I would suggest Gerold Schroeder. He has a PhD in astrophysics from MIT.
He can explain time in a way people can understand.

Gerald Schroeder, in his work, often explores the relationship between scientific concepts and biblical teachings, including the nature of time. He uses the idea of block time to reconcile the biblical account of creation with scientific evidence of the universe's age. Using Einstein's theory of general relativity, Schroeder tells us that time is based on our perspective or viewpoint.

 

[Diamond72]

evolutionist do they say " this fossil is 50 million years old - how do you know that ? because its in a rock layer that is 50 million years old.

There are many ways to verify our results other than geology. Even in Geology, there are many ways we can verify the age of a fossil.

There are several methods to verify the age of a fossil beyond traditional geological techniques. Here are some of the most common ones:

Radiometric Dating:​

• Carbon Dating (Radiocarbon Dating): Used for dating fossils up to about 50,000 years old. It measures the decay of carbon-14 in organic materials.
• Potassium-Argon Dating: Used for dating older fossils, especially those found in volcanic rock layers. It measures the decay of potassium-40 to argon-40.

Other Radiometric Methods:​

• Uranium-Lead Dating: Used for dating rocks and fossils that are millions of years old. It measures the decay of uranium isotopes to lead.
• Rubidium-Strontium Dating: Another method for dating older rocks and fossils, measuring the decay of rubidium-87 to strontium-87.

Electron Spin Resonance (ESR):​

• ESR Dating: Measures trapped electrons within the crystal structure of a fossil or rock to determine its age.

Thermoluminescence (TL):​

• TL Dating: Measures the light emitted from a sample when it is heated, which can indicate the last time the sample was exposed to heat or sunlight.

Paleomagnetism:​

• Magnetic Dating: Uses the Earth's magnetic field reversals recorded in rocks to date fossils and geological events.

Biostratigraphy:​

• Fossil Correlation: Compares the fossil assemblages found in different rock layers to establish relative ages.

These methods, when used together, can provide a more accurate and comprehensive understanding of a fossil's age.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

There are many ways to verify our results other than geology. Even in Geology, there are many ways we can verify the age of a fossil.

There are several methods to verify the age of a fossil beyond traditional geological techniques. Here are some of the most common ones:

Radiometric Dating:​

• Carbon Dating (Radiocarbon Dating): Used for dating fossils up to about 50,000 years old. It measures the decay of carbon-14 in organic materials.
• Potassium-Argon Dating: Used for dating older fossils, especially those found in volcanic rock layers. It measures the decay of potassium-40 to argon-40.

Other Radiometric Methods:​

• Uranium-Lead Dating: Used for dating rocks and fossils that are millions of years old. It measures the decay of uranium isotopes to lead.
• Rubidium-Strontium Dating: Another method for dating older rocks and fossils, measuring the decay of rubidium-87 to strontium-87.

Electron Spin Resonance (ESR):​

• ESR Dating: Measures trapped electrons within the crystal structure of a fossil or rock to determine its age.

Thermoluminescence (TL):​

• TL Dating: Measures the light emitted from a sample when it is heated, which can indicate the last time the sample was exposed to heat or sunlight.

Paleomagnetism:​

• Magnetic Dating: Uses the Earth's magnetic field reversals recorded in rocks to date fossils and geological events.

Biostratigraphy:​

• Fossil Correlation: Compares the fossil assemblages found in different rock layers to establish relative ages.

These methods, when used together, can provide a more accurate and comprehensive understanding of a fossil's age.

The point was not how to find the age of a fossil, it’s to show circular reasoning. I think that the argument that was being made is circular reasoning that’s all

 

[Diamond72]

The point was not how to find the age of a fossil, it’s to show circular reasoning. I think that the argument that was being made is circular reasoning that’s all

The scientific method is designed to eliminate "circular reasoning".
Your attempt is little more than Bait and Switch.

The purpose of the scientific method is to provide a systematic, objective, and standardized approach to conducting experiments and research. It helps scientists explore the world around them, answer questions, and find cause-and-effect relationships through observation, experimentation, and analysis2. Here are some key aspects:

Key Purposes:​

• Minimize Bias: The scientific method helps reduce personal biases and preconceived notions, ensuring that experiments are conducted objectively.
• Replicable Results: By following a standardized process, scientists can replicate experiments and verify results, leading to more reliable and accurate conclusions.
• Evidence-Based Conclusions: It promotes the use of evidence and reason to draw conclusions, rather than relying on assumptions or speculation.
• Problem Solving: The method provides a logical framework for investigating problems and finding solutions through a series of steps, including forming hypotheses, conducting experiments, and analyzing data.

Steps in the Scientific Method:​

1. Ask a Question: Identify a specific question or problem to investigate.
2. Do Background Research: Gather information and resources related to the topic.
3. Form a Hypothesis: Develop a testable statement predicting the outcome of the experiment.
4. Conduct Experiments: Perform experiments to test the hypothesis.
5. Analyze Data: Examine the results to determine if they support the hypothesis.
6. Draw Conclusions: Summarize the findings and determine the implications.
7. Communicate Results: Share the results with the scientific community for review and further research.

The scientific method is a dynamic and flexible process that is essential for advancing knowledge and making scientific discoveries. It's a fundamental tool used across all scientific disciplines to explore and understand the natural world.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

The scientific method is designed to eliminate "circular reasoning".
Your attempt is little more than Bait and Switch.

The purpose of the scientific method is to provide a systematic, objective, and standardized approach to conducting experiments and research. It helps scientists explore the world around them, answer questions, and find cause-and-effect relationships through observation, experimentation, and analysis2. Here are some key aspects:

Key Purposes:​

• Minimize Bias: The scientific method helps reduce personal biases and preconceived notions, ensuring that experiments are conducted objectively.
• Replicable Results: By following a standardized process, scientists can replicate experiments and verify results, leading to more reliable and accurate conclusions.
• Evidence-Based Conclusions: It promotes the use of evidence and reason to draw conclusions, rather than relying on assumptions or speculation.
• Problem Solving: The method provides a logical framework for investigating problems and finding solutions through a series of steps, including forming hypotheses, conducting experiments, and analyzing data.

Steps in the Scientific Method:​

1. Ask a Question: Identify a specific question or problem to investigate.
2. Do Background Research: Gather information and resources related to the topic.
3. Form a Hypothesis: Develop a testable statement predicting the outcome of the experiment.
4. Conduct Experiments: Perform experiments to test the hypothesis.
5. Analyze Data: Examine the results to determine if they support the hypothesis.
6. Draw Conclusions: Summarize the findings and determine the implications.
7. Communicate Results: Share the results with the scientific community for review and further research.

The scientific method is a dynamic and flexible process that is essential for advancing knowledge and making scientific discoveries. It's a fundamental tool used across all scientific disciplines to explore and understand the natural world.

I am not trying to make an agreement about scientific methods that’s not the point. I am 64 years old and back in the seventies one of the things we had to deal with and this is one of the arguments that evolutionists used to say that’s all, I have not kept up with any modern day discussions on evolution because it’s a settled matter in my mind. I am sorry that you miss understood what I was doing.

 

[Diamond72]

I have not kept up with any modern day discussions

It is very tricky now. It is a question of who wants to hijack and control the dictionary. Theistic evolutionists do not really believe in evolution, as far as mutations and natural selection occur. We do not believe God makes mistakes and DNA actually corrects itself. Theist Evolution thinks that God is the ultimate creator who set the natural laws in motion, allowing evolution to occur.

I remember in 1968 they came out with the first book on DNA. The Double Helex. There was controversy surrounding the discovery of the DNA double helix involves James Watson and Francis Crick. They are often accused of plagiarizing the work of Rosalind Franklin, a British scientist who made crucial contributions to the discovery.

There was recent controversy involving James Watson. In January 2019, Watson was stripped of his honorary titles by Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory due to his repeated comments about race and intelligence.

The scientific method is objective. I believe there is no conflict between Science and the Bible. They confirm each other. Science confirms that the Bible is 100% true and the Bible confirms Science. Also history confirms the Bible.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

New International Version, Matthew 25:


Did these two uses of "eternal" carry the same meaning? If yes, what did it mean?

They were the same Greek word in the same sentence and carried the same meaning. See αἰώνιος.

G166-Eternal life is immortal life.

The question is this: What is G166-eternal punishment?

The term eternal punishment is the opposite of eternal life. The punishment is eternal death, i.e., annihilation or the absence of life, Revelation 20:


Conscious punishment or suffering over an infinite period of existence makes little physical sense. To be conscious, you need a life or a breadth from God (Genesis 2:7). In other words, conscious torment over an infinite time is a form of eternal 'life'.

My paraphrase:


Paul expressed a similar concept in 2 Thessalonians 1:


Strong's Greek: 3639. ὄλεθρος (olethros) — 4 Occurrences

BDAG:
① a state of destruction, destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of transcendent coloring, … ὄλ. αἰώνιος eternal death (TestReub 6:3) 2 Th 1:9

There is some justification that eternal punishment is permanent death or annihilation of the soul.

See also

• Does the Bible teach conscious torment over an infinite period?.

your premise is incorrect just because the same word is used doesn't make that same word quantitatively the same. Example of what I mean - A tall man stood in front of a tall skyscraper. Tall was used to describe the man and the skyscraper but its foolish to think that either the man was as tall as a skyscraper or the skyscraper was as tall as a man. I also do not believe Aionios is eternal, I prescribe to the camp that know Aionios is "of the age " so for me that changes the whole discussion.

 

[Diamond72]

A tall man stood in front of a tall skyscraper.

A tall man in comparison to other men, a tall building in comparison to other building. Eternal is compared to temperial. God is eternal, man is considered to be temporal as all the universe is temporal.

2 Corinthians 4:18: "So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."

 

[Jeff Saunders]

A tall man in comparison to other men, a tall building in comparison to other building. Eternal is compared to temperial. God is eternal, man is considered to be temporal as all the universe is temporal.

2 Corinthians 4:18: "So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."

But we are not temperial

A tall man in comparison to other men, a tall building in comparison to other building. Eternal is compared to temperial. God is eternal, man is considered to be temporal as all the universe is temporal.

2 Corinthians 4:18: "So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."

But we are not temporal beings we have no end. For the followers of Jesus our body is temporal but our soul and spirit are not. The non followers of Jesus have a temporal body and they also have their soul die in the lake of fire, only their spirit has no end.

 

[Der Alte]

***I also do not believe Aionios is eternal, I prescribe to the camp that know Aionios is "of the age " so for me that changes the whole discussion.

Can you explain how the adjective "aionios" requires 3 words to translate it into English? Preposition "of", definite article "the," noun "age,". And "aionios" is always translated "eternal" in the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible. See link below

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

 

[Der Alte]

The word translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 apparently can mean correction, penalty, torment, punishment. If unsaved sinners are merely annihilated, their punishment would not be eternal - a person who is annihilated doesn't continue experiencing punishment!

You are on the right track. The Greek word translated "punishment" in Matt 25:46 is "kolasis" it occurs only one other time in the N.T.

1 John 4:18​

(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[kolasis] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

 

[Der Alte]

your premise is incorrect just because the same word is used doesn't make that same word quantitatively the same. Example of what I mean - A tall man stood in front of a tall skyscraper. Tall was used to describe the man and the skyscraper but its foolish to think that either the man was as tall as a skyscraper or the skyscraper was as tall as a man. I also do not believe Aionios is eternal, I prescribe to the camp that know Aionios is "of the age " so for me that changes the whole discussion.

In the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible "aionios" is translated eternal every time.

EOB Matt 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’46 These [ones on the left][sic] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

Greek has been the language of the EOB since the church was founded.
Your "tall" vs. "aionios" argument is not logical. Tall and aionios do not have the same relationship. Had you bothered to actually read and comprehend my post you might have seen these vss.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20, Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” In this verse, by definition, “aionios [adj]” means eternal,[adj] everlasting [adj] etc. And there is no preposition, "of," no definite article "the," and no noun "age."

 

[Diamond72]

But we are not temporal beings we have no end.

What evidence do you have to prove that?

our soul and spirit are not.

what is a soul? what is a spirit?

The concepts of the soul and spirit are deeply philosophical and theological, and different cultures and belief systems have varying interpretations.