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Eternal Justification !

Brightfame52

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Exactly what is the timing of Justification ? When is one for whom Christ died Justified before God ? John Gill gives reasons why he believes that the saint is Justified before God, from everlasting. I concur with his sentiment and here's why, and of course in ursuit it is reasonably concluded why Justification before God is before Faith:

1. Faith is not the cause, but the fruit and effect of justification. The reason why we are justified, is not because we have faith; but the reason why we have faith is because we are justified. Was there no such blessing of grace as justification of life provided for the sons of men, there would be no such thing as faith in Christ bestowed upon them, nor, indeed, would there be any use for it; and though it is provided, yet since not for all men, therefore all men have not faith. The reason why some do not believe, is, because they are not of Christ's sheep; (John 10:26) they never were chosen in him, nor justified by him, but are justly left in their sins, and so to condemnation; the reason why others do believe, is, because they are ordained to eternal life, (Acts 13:48) have a justifying righteousness provided for them, and are justified by it, and shall never enter into condemnation and, in asserting this, I say no more than what Dr. Twisse, the famous Prolocutor to the Assembly of Divines, has said before me. His words are these: "Before faith the righteousness of Christ was ours, being in the intention of God the Father, and Christ the Mediator, wrought out for us; and, because wrought out for us, therefore God, in his own time, gives us grace of every kind, and among others, faith itself, and, at last, the crown of heavenly glory." And, a little after, he says: "Before faith and repentance the righteousness of Christ is applied unto us; since it is on the account of that, that we obtain efficacious grace, to believe in Christ and repent." Likewise the judicious Pemble writes to the same effect, when, observing a two-fold justification, he says, the one is "In foro divino, in God's sight, and this goes before all our sanctification; for even whilst the elect are unconverted, they are then actually justified, and freed from all sin, by the death of Christ, and God so esteems of them as free, and, having accepted of that satisfaction, is actually reconciled to them. By this justification, we are freed from the guilt of our sins; and because that is done away, God, in due time, proceeds to give us the grace of sanctification, to free from sin's corruption still inherent in our persons." The other is, "In foro conscientiae, in their own sense, which is but the revelation and certain declaration of God's former secret act of accepting Christ's righteousness to our justification." And Maccovius says, "That because that God justifies us, therefore, he gives us faith, and other spiritual gifts." Now, if justification is the cause, and faith the effect; then, as every cause is before its effect, and every effect follows its own cause, justification must be before faith, and faith must follow justification.
 

bling

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Did, and/or when did, the prodigal son stand justified before his father and when could he stand justified before his father?

I do see the need for faith before justification and/or righteousness. As a condemned sinner burdened with sin, we can put our trust in a benevolent Creator to help/Love us to forgive us, but the justification comes from God accepting our humility as our reality.

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

Luke 18: 9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

This one time redefines “justified” for me. This tax collector is still under the Law, yet he could be justified before God, but this is only one time on one occasion, so was the tax collector always that way from that moment on? Could this tax collector get caught up in a prideful situation late and not be justified before God at that time?

Think about this: what it takes for a rebellious disobedient child to be able to willingly stand by or prostrated before his father. Yes! We can humbly fall on our face before God like the tax collector, but what would it take for us to stand hugging our father, since that is what God is truly wanting?

Think about this:

There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?

Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?
 
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Clare73

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The good ole salvation before belief, the idea invented by calvinist to support their election beliefs.​
Misinformation. . .

Where does Calvin present salvation occuring before belief in the realm of time?

In the realm of time, it is new birth by sovereign (dependent on nothing) act of the Holy Spirit, belief, salvation, justification, sanctification.
 
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d taylor

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Clare73

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Brightfame52

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2. Justification is the object, and faith is the act, which is conversant with it. Now the object does not depend upon the act, but the act upon the object. Every object is prior to the act, which is conversant with it; unless it be when an act gives being to the object, which cannot be the case here; unless we make faith to be the cause or matter of our justification, which has been already disproved. Faith is the evidence, not the cause of justification; and if it is an evidence, that of which it is an evidence must exist before it. Faith is indeed the evidence of things not seen; but it is not the evidence of things that are not: what the eye is in the body, that faith is in the soul. The eye, by virtue of its visive faculty beholds sensible objects, but does not produce them; and did they not previously exist, could not behold them. We see the sun shining in its brightness, but did it not exist before, it could not be visible to us; the same observation will hold good in ten thousand other instances. Faith is the hand which receives the blessing of justification from the Lord, and righteousness, by which the soul is justified from the God of its salvation; but then this blessing must exist before faith can receive it. If any should think fit to distinguish between the act of justification, and the righteousness of Christ, by which we are justified; and object, That not justification, but the righteousness of Christ, is the object of faith; I reply, Either the righteousness of Christ, as justifying, is the object of faith, or it is not: if it is not, then it is useless, and to be laid aside in the business of justification; if, as justifying, it is the object of faith, what is it else but justification? Christ's righteousness justifying me, is my justification before God, and as such, my faith considers it, and says with the church, Surely, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength. (Isa. 45:24) John Gill
 
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Brightfame52

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Reasons for Eternal Justification, derived from scripture or scriptural principles. Eternal Justification meaning Gods Elect were actually Justified before God, premised on the Death of Christ, before the foundation of the world. One reason is because Justification is the act of the Eternal God.

Notice Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Deut 33:27

The eternal God is thy refuge,
and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

Justification is an act which begins and ends in God and takes place outside of time !
 
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BBAS 64

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The good ole salvation before belief, the idea invented by calvinist to support their election beliefs.
Good day,

Never ever heard a reformed believer say such a thing.

Would you have a primary source?

In Him

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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d taylor

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Good day,

I see you are confusing "salvation" and regeneration....

Got it.

In Him,

Bill
-

Nope calvanist believe they are born again before they believe in Jesus. Maybe you do not know how a person is born again.
 
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Brightfame52

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One reason is because Christ has been from everlasting setup as Mediator between God and His Chosen. Prov 8:23

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Mich 5:2

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Christ was Mediator for men in Adam ! Adam had Christ for his Mediator and the elect in him.
 
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fhansen

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Exactly what is the timing of Justification ? When is one for whom Christ died Justified before God ? John Gill gives reasons why he believes that the saint is Justified before God, from everlasting. I concur with his sentiment and here's why, and of course in ursuit it is reasonably concluded why Justification before God is before Faith:

1. Faith is not the cause, but the fruit and effect of justification. The reason why we are justified, is not because we have faith; but the reason why we have faith is because we are justified. Was there no such blessing of grace as justification of life provided for the sons of men, there would be no such thing as faith in Christ bestowed upon them, nor, indeed, would there be any use for it; and though it is provided, yet since not for all men, therefore all men have not faith. The reason why some do not believe, is, because they are not of Christ's sheep; (John 10:26) they never were chosen in him, nor justified by him, but are justly left in their sins, and so to condemnation; the reason why others do believe, is, because they are ordained to eternal life, (Acts 13:48) have a justifying righteousness provided for them, and are justified by it, and shall never enter into condemnation and, in asserting this, I say no more than what Dr. Twisse, the famous Prolocutor to the Assembly of Divines, has said before me. His words are these: "Before faith the righteousness of Christ was ours, being in the intention of God the Father, and Christ the Mediator, wrought out for us; and, because wrought out for us, therefore God, in his own time, gives us grace of every kind, and among others, faith itself, and, at last, the crown of heavenly glory." And, a little after, he says: "Before faith and repentance the righteousness of Christ is applied unto us; since it is on the account of that, that we obtain efficacious grace, to believe in Christ and repent." Likewise the judicious Pemble writes to the same effect, when, observing a two-fold justification, he says, the one is "In foro divino, in God's sight, and this goes before all our sanctification; for even whilst the elect are unconverted, they are then actually justified, and freed from all sin, by the death of Christ, and God so esteems of them as free, and, having accepted of that satisfaction, is actually reconciled to them. By this justification, we are freed from the guilt of our sins; and because that is done away, God, in due time, proceeds to give us the grace of sanctification, to free from sin's corruption still inherent in our persons." The other is, "In foro conscientiae, in their own sense, which is but the revelation and certain declaration of God's former secret act of accepting Christ's righteousness to our justification." And Maccovius says, "That because that God justifies us, therefore, he gives us faith, and other spiritual gifts." Now, if justification is the cause, and faith the effect; then, as every cause is before its effect, and every effect follows its own cause, justification must be before faith, and faith must follow justification.
I think we tend to overcomplicate this thing. Grace precedes everything: faith, justification, salvation. But grace compels nothing in the absolute sense, as if it were irresistible. It calls, prompts, moves, informs, draws, coaxes us to God-and we cannot possibly come to Him without it, but it will not outright compel our coming. God wants our turning to Him, our faith, our repentance, our salvation, but He's never forced obedience since Eden until today. And He won't force us to remain once we've entered His fold. By His wisdom and plan for man, He wants, He covets, He's pleased by our commitment, our cooperation, our participation, no matter how weakly at first, and then increasingly as we continue our walk with Him.
 
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Brightfame52

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@fhansen

But grace compels nothing in the absolute sense, as if it were irresistible.

Thats where you wrong, Grace reigns over death, now is death irresistible ? Rom 5:21

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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The reason why some do not believe, is, because they are not of Christ's sheep; (John 10:26) they never were chosen in him, nor justified by him, but are justly left in their sins, and so to condemnation; the reason why others do believe, is, because they are ordained to eternal life, (Acts 13:48) have a justifying righteousness provided for them, and are justified by it, and shall never enter into condemnation

What you have said would mean God had no desire to save some, never intended to. Yet scripture makes it clear that God longed for the salvation of those who ended up damned, but they were unwilling to submit to His righteousness.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

God desires the salvation of all people, and offers His righteousness to them.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Just because many choose unrighteousness does not mean God planned for them to remain in sin. He was shocked that people did not walk in love.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
 
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fhansen

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@fhansen



Thats where you wrong, Grace reigns over death, now is death irresistible ? Rom 5:21

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Grace reigns only for those who open the door to Him when He knocks.
 
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Brightfame52

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Grace reigns only for those who open the door to Him when He knocks.
Absolutely wrong,just like saying death reigns only for them who opens the door to him who knocks. Like its your freewill choice whether you die lol
 
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fhansen

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Absolutely wrong,just like saying death reigns only for them who opens the door to him who knocks. Like its your freewill choice whether you die lol
It’s your choice, aided by grace, whether or not you remain dead, alienated from God. No laughing matter. That’s why we have the Bible, for one thing, so that you can know, and decide. Otherwise there’s no reason for revelation, if God’s merely a puppetmaster anyway.
 
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Brightfame52

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Another reason for eternal justification of Gods elect, which is closely akin to His being Mediator, is that He was also made I believe to be a Surety for Gods Elect before the foundation Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

That belter testament or covenant is the everlasting covenant which was confirmed as the new covenant in time.

And He's called the Mediator of the new covenant as well Heb 12:24


And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

As such Mediator Surety He became responsible for the sins of the elect before the foundation, hence they themselves never became responsible for their sins, so therefore Justified from them.
 
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