Eternal Hell and Torment is a big fat Lie.

StarJewel said:

If you mean Biblical inerrancy, then no, I don't believe in it... as for the sources of my ideas, I'm open to almost anything

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If you are a Christian, and you don't beleive the bible is the word of God, then what is the basis for your Christianity?

livingword26 said:

If you are a Christian, and you don't beleive the bible is the word of God, then what is the basis for your Christianity?

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What makes you think that the Bible is the word of God? To me, the Bible is a lot of words about God, and about some other things as well...

StarJewel said:

I don't believe in eternal torment for mistakes made during a lifetime, because it just seems sadistic to me....

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God created us in His image. He gave us an imortal soul. We will live forever one way or another. Hell was not designed for man:

Mat 25:41
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


But God gave each man the right to choose whether or not he will spend his eternity with God. No one has to be punished, anyone can be forgiven.

livingword26 said:

God created us in His image. He gave us an imortal soul. We will live forever one way or another. Hell was not designed for man:

Mat 25:41
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


But God gave each man the right to choose whether or not he will spend his eternity with God. No one has to be punished, anyone can be forgiven.

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So, why would anyone make an informed decision to choose eternal suffering?

StarJewel said:

What makes you think that the Bible is the word of God? To me, the Bible is a lot of words about God, and about some other things as well...

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I don't think the bible is the word of God, I know it is. He has spoken to me through it. He has revealed Himself to me through it. Here is some interesting information about it:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibletru.html

StarJewel said:

So, why would anyone make an informed decision to choose eternal suffering?

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Because they reject the information given to them. Every one has the same chance, but some will reject the authority of God

Rom 1:19-32
(19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
(23) And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
(25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
(27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
(29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
(30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
(31) Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
(32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

StarJewel said:

I don't believe in eternal torment for mistakes made during a lifetime, because it just seems sadistic to me.... if I believed that God allows it to happen, then I'd have to attribute what I believe to be evil to God.

Someone here said that God is love, but He is also just, and that somehow supports the idea of eternal torment... to be honest, I don't see how. Someone in the Bible says that God is love, but no one says that God is justice. That's why God's love is the most important... it's the essence of God, and His all other attributes are results of it.... so God's justice can't in any way oppose or limit God's love, like many people suggest (the statement "God is love, but He is also just" puts justice in opposition to love) If justice is a result of love, and God's love is infinite and it's the motive of every God's action, then God's justice must somehow result in something good. There's nothing good in eternal punishment. Thet's why I believe that God's justice is only meant to make a person realize the harm they have caused, so that they don't want to do it again. That way it ultimately benefits everyone.

There are people who often describe God's justice using... I don't know how to describe it.... legal terms, or something like that. What I mean are terms like penalty, deserving or not deserving something, and similar things. People use such words to say that sin has a penalty which everyone deserves, and that penalty is eternal hell, and no one deserves to escape it, so even if God only saves some people and forgets about the rest, it's enough to call Him merciful and praise Him for that. Persinally, I believe that such an understanding of God's justice is wrong, because it's just projecting the imperfect human legal system on infinite God. The result of it is that all its faults and imperfections are made infinite too, and that's how ideas such as eternal punishment are created. I understand spiritual growth (progressing towards God) in a different way. I think that, just like normal human growth, it's not something which we deserve or not deserve... it just naturally happens. What brings us closer to God is love, and any human can experience it, no matter what their religious beliefs are. Love and the desire to experience it are natural to every person. Sin is something opposite to love, and that's why it prevents us from getting closer to God. And punishment (I have no idea what it is like... maybe it's literally some kind of God's punishment in the afterlife, or maybe it's just something natural in the Universe, for example that everything we do eventually comes back to us) is meant to show us the harm we have caused, so that we can repent and return to the path of love which brings us to God... That's why it can't be eternal, because that would be pointless... it wouldn't be punishment then, but sadism. However, in that view which I wrote about, there's a possibility that the punishment is eternal, but in a different sense that most conservative and fundamentalist Christians believe... It's possible that a person will continue to act against love forever, and in such a way that it will stop their progress towards God... but, even though it's a possibility, I don't believe that anyone will be like that forever.

Wow, that's a long post... sorry if it was confusing, but it's too hot to think here where I live The good thing is that the weather will get better in a few days And I don't know if anything I wrote is actually true..... it's just a belief which makes sense to me. But beliefs are like opinions, so maybe I'm wrong and someone else is right... that's why I'm open to different views.

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I agree that God is just, but he is merciful. For what purpose would it serve God to punish people for eternity after eternity? Why create them in the first place if he already knew where they were going to end up in the first place. I think the bible teaches what it does to help motivate us to do what is right. Although we can choose to do right, it helps to know the consequences of those choices. I do believe that ehll is coming face to face with the person you could have been, then living with that choice for an eternity.

livingword26 said:

If you are a Christian, and you don't beleive the bible is the word of God, then what is the basis for your Christianity?

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According to the Bible, Jesus is the Word of God, not the Bible.
John chapter 1.

Charlie

Charlie V said:

According to the Bible, Jesus is the Word of God, not the Bible.
John chapter 1.
Charlie

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Indeed, Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. But the bible is the written word of God:

Mark 7:9-13
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
KJV

John 5:38-39
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me .
KJV

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJV

Eph 6:17
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
KJV

Acts 18:9-11
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
KJV

Acts 13:46
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
KJV

Acts 13:44
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
KJV

You get the drift.

fatboys said:

I agree that God is just, but he is merciful. For what purpose would it serve God to punish people for eternity after eternity? Why create them in the first place if he already knew where they were going to end up in the first place. I think the bible teaches what it does to help motivate us to do what is right. Although we can choose to do right, it helps to know the consequences of those choices. I do believe that ehll is coming face to face with the person you could have been, then living with that choice for an eternity.

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A lot of "I think's" and "I believe's". What do you base your beliefs on? None of us are what we could have been. I'm not anyway. Saying that this is some kind of hell is a little strange don't you think? It certainly is not in any of the descriptions of hell in the bible.

livingword26 said:

A lot of "I think's" and "I believe's". What do you base your beliefs on? None of us are what we could have been. I'm not anyway. Saying that this is some kind of hell is a little strange don't you think? It certainly is not in any of the descriptions of hell in the bible.

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I just asked some questions. And my beliefs come from the Bible. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. No exceptions. For Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison. He certainly was not going to leave everyone who did not accept him in this life in prison.

fatboys said:

I just asked some questions. And my beliefs come from the Bible. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. No exceptions. For Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison. He certainly was not going to leave everyone who did not accept him in this life in prison.

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Heb 9:27
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


2Ti 2:12
(12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Mat 10:33
(33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Rev 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 20:15
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever

I don't like it myself, but I cannot deny what the bible says.

livingword26 said:

Heb 9:27
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


2Ti 2:12
(12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Mat 10:33
(33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Rev 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 20:15
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever

I don't like it myself, but I cannot deny what the bible says.

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It is your INTERPRETATION of what the bible supposedly says that is the problem....not what it actually says.

EchoPneuma said:

It is your INTERPRETATION of what the bible supposedly says that is the problem....not what it actually says.

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What do you think my interpretation of them is and what do you think they actually say? I assume that you know what they actually say since you know that my interpretation is wrong

Heb 9:27
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


2Ti 2:12
(12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Mat 10:33
(33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Rev 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 20:15
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever

livingword26 said:

What do you think my interpretation of them is and what do you think they actually say? I assume that you know what they actually say since you know that my interpretation is wrong

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I'm sorry, I haven't read all the posts, so I don't know your interpretation.

Does your interpretation conflict with these verses? (These have a few editor comments to help you understand them.)


Mt 18:12,14 What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? Thus it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Lk 2:10 And the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which shall be for all the people."

Lk 15:4-7 What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? And when [Ed., not if] he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing... I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.


Lk 23:34 Jesus said, "Father forgive them; they know not what they do." Jn 1:29 The next day he [John the Baptist] saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" Jn 3:17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him.


Jn 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. Acts 3;20-21And that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.


Rom 5:18-20 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's] there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One, the many will be made righteous. And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more! Rom 8:19-21 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Rom 11:15 For if their rejection [i.e., the Jew's rejection of Christ] be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved.

Rom 11:32,33For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all. Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

Rom 11;36 For from Him [Christ] and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:11 For as it is written, "As I live", says the Lord, "every knee shall bow to me [ie. repentance], and every tongue shall give praise to God". [ie. worship]

I Cor 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.

I Cor 5:4,5 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [See I Peter 4:6!]


I Cor 13:8 Love never fails. I Cor 15:22,28For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order... [Ed., This phrase is the real key to understanding God's purposes in relation to His time schedule.] "And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all." I Cor 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." II Cor 5:14,15 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

II Cor 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was [Ed., and is] in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.


Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you." Eph 1:9,10 He make known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth.

Eph 1:22,23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all.

Eph 3:8-11 To me [Paul]...this grace was given...to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 4:5,6 There is...one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.


Phil 2:9-11 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 3;21 ...who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.


Col 1:19-22 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.
Col 3:11 Christ is all, and in all. I Tim 1:13 Even though I [Paul] was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor, yet I was shown mercy, because I acted ignorantly in unbelief. I Tim 1:15Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I [Paul] am foremost. I Tim 2:5,6 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to be borne at the proper time. I Tim 4:10It is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. Titus 2:11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

Heb 1:2In these last days He has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Heb 2:8 For in subjecting all things to him [ie., man], He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him...But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for every one.


Heb 9:26 But now once at the consummation He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. I Pet 2:12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may on account of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

I Pet 3:18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah...


I Pet 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that even though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. (see I Cor 5:5) II Pet 3:8,9 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing [literally "not purposing", from the Greek: boulema, "predetermined purpose"] that any should perish but for all to come to repentance. I John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation [ie., satisfaction or appeasement] for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

I John 4:14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world

Charlie V said:

Mt 18:12,14 What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? Thus it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

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Of course He doesn't want anyone to perish, but that doesn't mean He hasn't given us (who are created in His image) the right to choose. We are not puppets.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 3:18[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/FONT]

Lk 2:10 And the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which shall be for all the people."

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Yes, again, salvation is offered to all.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 10:32-33[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.[/FONT]

Lk 15:4-7 What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? And when [Ed., not if] he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing... I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

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Still again, God wants all to be saved, but as this verse says "there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance". It is not a blanket pardon.

Lk 23:34 Jesus said, "Father forgive them; they know not what they do."

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Of course, That is what Jesus came for, but still no blanket salvation

Jn 3:17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him.

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A little context:

Joh 3:16-18
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.

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Yes of course, he draws us all, otherwise none of us would come to him.

Acts 3;20-21And that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

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Act 3:21
(21) whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began.

What does restoration mean in this verse? Here is the Thayers greek lexicons translation from the greek:

G605
ἀποκατάστασις
apokatastasis
Thayer Definition:
1) restoration
1a) of a true theocracy
1b) of the perfect state before the fall
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G600
Citing in TDNT: 1:389, 65

Rom 5:18-20 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's] there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One, the many will be made righteous. And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more

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Rom 5:18-19
(18) Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved.

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Again the verse you listed gives the key. It does indeed say that all Israel will be saved, but gives the distinction of the Gentiles. Notice it does not say that all the Gentiles will be saved. I could go on with the rest of it but it doesn't really matter. There is to much scritpural opposition to the "all will be saved" theory for it to even be plausible. If you have a few more that you would like me to address, I would be delighted, but if you study the scritptures you listed, they don't say that everyone will be saved. They say the God wants them all to be saved, and that He offers salvation to all, and the the world will be restored. But not that everyone will be saved.


Heb 9:27
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


2Ti 2:12
(12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Mat 10:33
(33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Rev 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 20:15
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever

livingword26 said:

Of course He doesn't want anyone to perish, but that doesn't mean He hasn't given us (who are created in His image) the right to choose. We are not puppets.

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So we're free to choose to go to heaven no matter what we do, any time we want. We're not puppets forced into a hell. That's a great way to promote universal salvation.

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livingword26 said:

John 3:18

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livingword26 said:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/FONT]

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"Condemned" does not mean "eternal torment in an infinite hell."

"Already" means "right now," not, "after you die until forever more."

livingword26 said:

Yes, again, salvation is offered to all.

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The word "offer" does not appear in Luke 2:10. Christ's arrival was good tidings of great joy which shall be to all people, not "offered" to all people.

The Greek esomai {es'-om-ahee} means "shall be," and in the 151 times is appears in the Bible, it's translated, "will be," "shall be," and "shall come to pass."'

Nowhere is "esomai" translated "offered."

In fact, the Greek word for "offer" is most often used for people offering gifts (such as burnt offerings, sacrifices of pigeons) or in other ways ("if a man strike you on one cheek, offer the other"; "if a man asks for an egg would you offer him a scorpion?") but the Greek word for "offer" is not used in reference to God's gift of salvation.


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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 10:32-33[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.[/FONT]

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Deny does not = eternal torment.

Still again, God wants all to be saved,

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And God is omnipotent.

That's why we pray, "God's will be done," not "God's will won't be done."

I can post a list of God's soveriegnty passages that demonstrate it's His will, not our own, that is done. If it's His will for us to be saved, so shall it be.

but as this verse says "there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance". It is not a blanket pardon.

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The passages is clear that the great shephard finds every last sheep and guides it to repentance. It's more than a blanket pardon -- it's a blanket celebration!

Of course, That is what Jesus came for, but still no blanket salvation

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If Jesus did not accomplish what He came for, He failed. I do not believe in a Jesus who failed.

A little context:

Joh 3:16-18
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

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I love your use of bold. But let me first flip it, then provide some more context.

Joh 3:16-1
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(19) And this is the condemnation,


STOP... let the suspense build.
What is the condemnation?

Eternity in hell? Torment forever? Nah..

(19 continued) that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The word "already" means "NOW" the phrase "into this world" means "IN THIS LIFE!"

It says quite clearly what the condemnation is and it's not eternity in hell! It's being in the darkness while in this world.

If you're going to quote context, try to get all the key context.

Yes of course, he draws us all, otherwise none of us would come to him.

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Well, hypothetically no, not necessarily. If Christ wanted to, He could draw 12 of us and only the 12 would come to Him. He could draw 100 of us, and only the 100 would come to Him.

But He draws all men to Himself -- and whomever He draws come to Him!

Act 3:21(21) whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began.

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What does restoration mean in this verse? Here is the Thayers greek lexicons translation from the greek:

G605
ἀποκατάστασις
apokatastasis
Thayer Definition:
1) restoration
1a) of a true theocracy
1b) of the perfect state before the fall
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G600
Citing in TDNT: 1:389, 65

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Great. What does "all things" mean? Because He restores "all things," to the perfect state before the fall!

Rom 5:18-19
(18) Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.

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The "many" made righteous is in the context. By one man's disobedience many were made sinners.

Who is the "one man"? Adam. The "many" is everyone who were made sinners by Adam's disobedience. If there's any question how many "many" is, be sure to go back and look up Romans 5:12.

Again the verse you listed gives the key. It does indeed say that all Israel will be saved, but gives the distinction of the Gentiles. Notice it does not say that all the Gentiles will be saved.

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Gentiles are addressed in Romans 5, as outlines.

I could go on with the rest of it but it doesn't really matter.

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No, it doesn't matter what you say. If God's will is the salvation of all mankind, so shall it be.

Too bad you can't address all the many passages that state clearly that all are saved.

There is to much scritpural opposition to the "all will be saved" theory for it to even be plausible.

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There is no scriptural opposition to the "all are saved" promise of the Bible which is outlined in these and many other passages. There is too much scriptural opposition to the "eternal damnation" theory for it to even be plausible.

If you have a few more that you would like me to address, I would be delighted, but if you study the scritptures you listed, they don't say that everyone will be saved.

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Yes, they do.

They say the God wants them all to be saved,

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Even if they say that alone -- considering all the scriptures about God's soveriegnty, that His will shall be done, that none can stay His hand, etc. That would be all that's needed.

But it says much more than that He "wants" them to be saved.. as though God is a wishy-washy God who, kinda wants this but, oh, oopsy, He can't have what He wants.

and that He offers salvation to all, and the the world will be restored. But not that everyone will be saved.

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Incorrect. They say He brings salvation to all people, that the world will be restored, and that everyone will be saved.

Heb 9:27 (27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

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Judgement does not = eternal torment. This verse proves nothing

2Ti 2:12 (12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Mat 10:33
(33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

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Deny does not = eternal torment. These verses prove nothing.

Rev 21:8 (8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 20:15
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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The lake of fire = a place in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem. These verses prove nothing.

Rev 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever

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Mistranslation.

Young's Literal:
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

Age of the ages does not = forever, and your translation errantly translated that.

Further, the entire book of Revelations is a very metaphoric allegoric prophecy about the fall of the temple in 70 AD, as has been analysed and explained in very detailed books on the subject.

There is too much ample and abundant scriptural proof of universal salvation for a narrow interpretation of a few metaphoric passages in Revelation (which many church fathers felt shouldn't have been canon anyway -- it was far too similar to the Gnostic apocalyptic works.)

You have to accept that narrow interpretation and throw away many, many passages about the promise of Christ's salvation for mankind, or interpret them away saying they don't mean what they clearly say.

Charlie

Of course He doesn't want anyone to perish, but that doesn't mean He hasn't given us (who are created in His image) the right to choose. We are not puppets.

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Besides the many scriptural proofs that God is soveriegn, and that it is His will, and not ours, that shall be done, and that none can stay His hand, there's a problem with the whole "free will thing."

The fact is -- nobody chooses hell, unless:

1. They are uninformed.
2. They are insane.
3. There's something good about hell making it a viable choice.

1. If they are uninformed they really don't know what they are chosing, so I wouldn't call that a free choice. It's like the old show "Let's Make a Deal," where Monty Hall shows you Door #1, Door #2, and the "Box where Carol Merril is now standing." Pick wrong, and spend eternity in hell. If you don't know what you are chosing -- it can't be said to be a free and fair choice.

2. If they are insane, there's something medically wrong with them. Perhaps they believe they are Napolean as well. Perhaps they are suffering from a brain disorder that caused them to compulsively make the wrong choice. That, also, would not be truly a free and fair choice.

3. If there's something good about hell, a real reason to choose it, then I don't see the problem. It's not a place of torment at all, but a place people would want to go.

If nobody would want to go there, clearly, nobody would choose it! And assuming everybody is informed (or it's not free will -- I believe God would save the ignorant/uninformed) and everybody is sane (or it's not free will -- I believe God would save the insane/mentally handicapped.)

So that makes the "free will" thing pretty easy.
Everybody chooses heaven, because to do otherwise would mean you are uninformed or insane.

God saving everyone doesn't mean we're puppets.

Here's a better analogy than "puppet and puppet master."

Suppose you are a parent. The stove is on, and it's set at 525 degrees. Your child, a 3-year-old toddler, walks toward it.

Do you:
A. Stop the child, because he doesn't know he's about to burn himself.
B. Let him excersize his free will and burn his hand off.

If you choose "A," is your toddler a puppet?

Clearly, given all the mysteries in the universe, we know less in comparison with God than the toddler knows in comparison with us. To say He saves us, is like saying He's a loving parent, not a puppet master.

It also recognizes the fact that we, like the toddler, have no idea what mess we're getting ourselves into. If we did, we wouldn't get ourselves into the mess and we wouldn't need salvation.

Charlie

livingword26 said:

Because they reject the information given to them. Every one has the same chance, but some will reject the authority of God

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Why do you believe that there would be anyone who rejects the authority of God forever?

Anyway, this discussion is getting kinda confusing, can you tell me what exactly you disagree with in that long post I wrote, so that we can talk about it here?

The fact is -- nobody chooses hell, unless:

1. They are uninformed.
2. They are insane.
3. There's something good about hell making it a viable choice.

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Option #1 is where it starts
what about option #4? PEOPLE REBEL AGAINST GOD?
option #5 people make themselves there money and TV's God.
Ok now that we have a MORE complete list of options (not anywhere close to complete but closer) Lets look at Gods options...
God is Holy and Just and cannot stand sin!
so in the OT God & pple didnt work
God sends Jesus to take our sins if we would Admit we are sinners Believe in him and Change our ways (or follow him) so he did prove he wants us all to be saved. However if God would just let people in heaven why did Jesus Die?

God will not hand out get-out-of-hell free tickets he is JUST. And in the name of justice those who do not except his gift that cost his son Jesus his life (raised 3 days later) He will be seperrated from God and eventually be caste into the lake of fire